Autopsy Round 9, 2024: Hawthorn v St.Kilda

[The Jack]

I hope he finds another job quickly. Love Bevo as a St Kilda person.

No thanks. Had Bevo as a key speaker at a work function a few years back. To this day I have no idea what he was talking about. Like trying to decipher Inception or Tenet. Just gave up.

 

[MordySaint]

AFL News: League investigates Pies fan's player touch, young Saint's manager apologises for social media Lyon rant

The AFL is investigating an incident in the last quarter of Collingwood's win over West Coast, when a Magpies supporter leaned over the fence…

www.theroar.com.au

This ain't good

 

[True Believer]

Respectfully, if you listen to Dimma talk about that period he listened and changed ALOT. Listen to his Dyl and Friends podcast and he speaks very openly about needing to change mindset and outcome because of the external pressure that mirrored internal pressure.

I get the whole "if you wouldnt listen to them when youre winning then dont when youre losing" mentality but frankly all weve ever done is lose, so now youre advocating for listening to no one...

Nothing is ever as good or as bad as it seems......

All I am saying is that we have had a crap fixture to start the year, a crap run of injuries, and we are still missing our best mid from a VERY thin midfield. There are two things that hold true

1) Lack of continuity in team selection results in less "connected" team play.
2) The development of kids is not linear! They were all going to go through a down period, although Owens and Philipou seem to be on a joint plan right now.

We need pace in the middle, and clearance winners. Hopefully a couple of blokes to come in can provide that, certainly Dow can add some pace at stoppage.

Things can change very quickly, and as disappointed as we no doubt all are at losing a game that we thought we should win, in an uninspiring manner, the sky did not fall! The wailing and carry on in here is next level.
The other thing that is happening is that the anti RTB brigade are using the loss as their starting gun!! The certainty with which those posters are declaring that certain players are "cooked" and that "Ross must go, or the Saints will fold" is breathtaking, it would be actually funny if it wasn't so sad. They were clearly waiting for the chance, and it didn't come in the first year as we made finals! That must have really pissed some people off - after all, making the finals to them is simply "papering over the cracks" of how outdated and poor a coach Lyon is!!

 

[True Believer]

No thanks. Had Bevo as a key speaker at a work function a few years back. To this day I have no idea what he was talking about. Like trying to decipher Inception or Tenet. Just gave up.

I could follow Tenet - I couldn't even watch Inception all the way through, good God, what a lot of crap....

 

[The Punter]

We win plenty of clearances. We ahead on differential, mid table for clearances, and third best at conceding them as a raw number.

But we are terrible at generating quality clearances and pretty poor at conceding good ones.

 

[phantom13]

Nothing is ever as good or as bad as it seems......

All I am saying is that we have had a crap fixture to start the year, a crap run of injuries, and we are still missing our best mid from a VERY thin midfield. There are two things that hold true

1) Lack of continuity in team selection results in less "connected" team play.
2) The development of kids is not linear! They were all going to go through a down period, although Owens and Philipou seem to be on a joint plan right now.

We need pace in the middle, and clearance winners. Hopefully a couple of blokes to come in can provide that, certainly Dow can add some pace at stoppage.

Things can change very quickly, and as disappointed as we no doubt all are at losing a game that we thought we should win, in an uninspiring manner, the sky did not fall! The wailing and carry on in here is next level.
The other thing that is happening is that the anti RTB brigade are using the loss as their starting gun!! The certainty with which those posters are declaring that certain players are "cooked" and that "Ross must go, or the Saints will fold" is breathtaking, it would be actually funny if it wasn't so sad. They were clearly waiting for the chance, and it didn't come in the first year as we made finals! That must have really pissed some people off - after all, making the finals to them is simply "papering over the cracks" of how outdated and poor a coach Lyon is!!

Crap fixture? Mate, were losing to Hawthorn, we can be fixtured to play North every week.

Which midfielder are we missing? Cause i thought Steele was our best? Then it was Sinclair? I assume youre talking about Crouch but then you say we need pace... Crouch is not pace.

As for the "anti RTB" brigade. Buck stops with the coach and TBH (and i assume i would be accused of being Anti RTB) i see alot more blind defence of Ross and "stick with it, youll see" than i see hysterical responses to him. Hes not superman but he is accountable and right now were seeing regression from young players, ugly football and losses. Hes getting an appropriate amount of heat from supporters and given his "its not an excuse BUT" stuff an appropriate amount of heat from the media.

If everything isnt as bad as it always seems then surely you could apply the same thing to the Ross criticism. He probably shouldnt listen to ALL of it but some of it seems pretty apt.

 

[phantom13]

I could follow Tenet - I couldn't even watch Inception all the way through, good God, what a lot of crap....

Really?

Inception seemed pretty straight forward to me, Tenet on the other hand, i enjoyed but i still dont really know what happened in the last 25 minutes.

 

[True Believer]

We win plenty of clearances. We ahead on differential, mid table for clearances, and third best at conceding them as a raw number.

But we are terrible at generating quality clearances and pretty poor at conceding good ones.

Exactly - how many of those clearances are Roma's hack kicks forward? We need guys that can exit a stoppage with the ball towards goal, and at least attempt to hit-up a leading forward. I am sure our small forwards (when we have some) would also appreciate the certainty of knowing where they need to be as well......

 

[Brian Oblivion]

AFL News: League investigates Pies fan's player touch, young Saint's manager apologises for social media Lyon rant

The AFL is investigating an incident in the last quarter of Collingwood's win over West Coast, when a Magpies supporter leaned over the fence…

www.theroar.com.au

This ain't good

The place is falling apart before our very eyes it seems. Or maybe it's coming apart at the seams ? I can't figure out which.

The thing some people are missing about these close games we've been involved in for the most part this year, is that someone is a loser in each game. As Ratts might say: "Why not us ?"

 

[g_TRAIN]

We win plenty of clearances. We ahead on differential, mid table for clearances, and third best at conceding them as a raw number.

But we are terrible at generating quality clearances and pretty poor at conceding good ones.

Yeah we win clearances when we flood the stoppage with numbers but then we can't win the next contest after that.

 

[Saintbloke]

Does anyone have a good idea as to why we can't develop players? Is it a coaching thing, culture - what exactly is preventing it?

I remember Watters wanting to go down the development and rebuild path, put things in place, which I believe may have meant trading a favourite son or two, but the board were too weak to go down that path, and instead gave him the boot. That's not the first time in our history where weak boards have let the tail wag the dog and instead looked for instant fixes. Nuff said.

 

[MordySaint]

I remember Watters wanting to go down the development and rebuild path, put things in place, which I believe may have meant trading a favourite son or two, but the board were too weak to go down that path, and instead gave him the boot. That's not the first time in our history where weak boards have let the tail wag the dog and instead looked for instant fixes. Nuff said.

The Richo era was full rebuild and full trade of anyone of worth.

Watters went rogue that's why he was shown the door.

 

[CaptainRisky]

The Richo era was full rebuild and full trade of anyone of worth.

Watters went rogue that's why he was shown the door.

Can you explain more , never really knew why he got the sars

 

[SteeleSaints]

Like the same "AFL Industry" that thought Hardwick should have been sacked before he won 3 flags?!

Ignoring an echo chamber is not arrogance. The "entire AFL industry" have no idea what goes on inside our club, whether the players are following instructions or what problems the lack of continuity in our team so far this year may have created.

I do know that we looked badly like a team with no recognised small forwards. Instead, we had a high half forward fresh off a six-week lay-off brought straight back in as a small forward out of necessity, along with a what, a rotation of first year players?

AS a team with an already skinny midfield, we are going nowhere while our best mid of the past 2 years is out and we are trying to plug gaps with the likes of Seb Ross and a bunch of kids. The other wonderful alternative is that we rob our half back line of Sinclair to plug midfield gaps.

It will improve if we can have some stability in the team, but besides losing a game we should have won, and not playing particularly well, the sky has not fallen. If Dow can get going and add a layer to the midfield, that will help. If Crouch can get back out there in something resembling a match-fit condition, that will help enormously, but game style means little if you have to play way more kids than is ideal and you have to have a revolving door of changes every week.

No one is suggesting the sky is falling or to sack Lyon, I just feel he needs to make some changes. Apart from Marshall & Steele the entire side looked like they werent fully invested on Saturday. Crouch has a chronic knee issues so it will questionable how much he plays, Dow like the AFL side seems to only want to turn up in the 2nd halfs for Sandringham, he needs more time in the VFL.

The matchups were shocking against Hawthorn and he continued to play Seb Ross who is completely cooked as a midfielder in the middle. He is just not coaching very well ATM, does that mean he can change and turn it around - obviously it does. My concern is he keeps making the same mistakes by backing his senior players even when they are not performing. There is no doubt Seb is a quality person and leader around the club but he rarely shows that in games. For me the rotation with Seb is obvious put him back in defence and give someone like Stocker or Owens a go in the midfield.

Hawthorn tagged Sinclair and severely limited his influence on the game, we didnt send someone to Newcombe until the last quarter. Tell me that is a coach who is in form. Amon and Impey sliced us up out of defence what was his answer to there influence = zero.

The supposed great Ross Lyon had his pants completely pulled down by a novice coach on the weekend and it has occurred too often this year. So yes he does need to make changes and pull his head out of his backside.

 

[Ricmel]

Well, exactly 12 months ago Owens had been possibly St Kilda's best player to this point in the season, and Phillipou was looking like a future star.

This year, not so.

King, to me, has always looked like a future Coleman Medallist. Not this year!

I guess the lesson is, you just don't know. The jury remains out on AFL players until they perform consistently for a couple of years.

Others:

NWM was best on ground when we defeated the reigning premiers. He's got "something". Call it class. Poise.

Wilson great runner, real potential.

Henry impressed me in the first 2 rounds.

Windhager is developing, slowly but surely.

Caminiti works hard, good athlete, I'd prefer he was in the team over Hayes.

Yeah, not talking about what Saints supporters think. We are nuts. If you asked this question legitimately of the broader AFL group I think they would give you 1 name (NWM) and probably accept Wilson looks likely.

I'm not saying the others won't come good. But right now, most AFL teams could put up a more impressive list of under 23s.

 

[SteeleSaints]

Exactly - how many of those clearances are Roma's hack kicks forward? We need guys that can exit a stoppage with the ball towards goal, and at least attempt to hit-up a leading forward. I am sure our small forwards (when we have some) would also appreciate the certainty of knowing where they need to be as well......

Hack kicks by other ruckman who have a forward line who can read the play and mark the ball are gold. Marshall is not a great tap ruckman but he is doing a great job with the skills he has. Its the dysfunctional forward line that is letting him down constantly nothing more. I said it a few years ago as a collective were are a really poor contested marking side. Go and have a look at Sydney, Collingwood or Geelong small to medium sized players and they have an entire list of strong marking players, we have Owens & Wood possibly now Wilson and then the cupboard is bare.

Even when Higgins and Butler are playing, the best they do is halve marking contests very rarely do they win the contests.

 

[MordySaint]

Can you explain more , never really knew why he got the sars

Went on SEN with Mark Vine against the committees approval, told the world that he had been re-signed for a long period etc. I actually heard it live when I was in my shed one night.

Think that incident broke the camels back.

 

[PJays]

Yeah, not talking about what Saints supporters think. We are nuts. If you asked this question legitimately of the broader AFL group I think they would give you 1 name (NWM) and probably accept Wilson looks likely.

Yeah, but 12 months ago half of them thought Owens was the next Dusty Martin or Toby Greene. And Phillipou was highly rated.

A couple of years ago Windhager had a hot streak where he kept Tim Kelly to 4 disposals (career low) and people thought he was the next great defensive mid.

I think there's factors going both ways. Saints supporters might have bias, but opposition supporters are mostly watching whatever highlights are dished up by Fox Footy and riffing off whatever Kane Cornes said.

 

[BrutThough]

VOTES
PLAYER (CLUB)
9 Jai Newcombe (HAW)
7 Rowan Marshall (STK)
7 Karl Amon (HAW)
3 Jarman Impey (HAW)
2 Jack Scrimshaw (HAW)
1 Jack Steele (STK)
1 Callum Wilkie (STK)

 

[Saintbloke]

Went on SEN with Mark Vine against the committees approval, told the world that he had been re-signed for a long period etc. I actually heard it live when I was in my shed one night.

Think that incident broke the camels back.

Wouldn't be the first Saint coach in our history to get re-signed, then got the flick.

 

[Otiman]

Who would you say are our super youngsters? If I asked this question in the main forums my guess would be,

• NWM
• Likely Wilson will get there.
• Let's throw in King cos he is 200+

My guess is it would be the shortest list of coming at you youngsters in the AFL.

My point was more about leaders. The current leadership group should be out in 2025, replaced by the new brigade.

Set a line that it's not Steele's Saints anymore, it's Windhager/Owens/Caminiti/etc.

 

[MrFoster]

Crap fixture? Mate, we’re losing to Hawthorn, we can be fixtured to play North every week.

Which midfielder are we missing? Cause i thought Steele was our best? Then it was Sinclair? I assume youre talking about Crouch but then you say we need pace... Crouch is not pace.

As for the "anti RTB" brigade. Buck stops with the coach and TBH (and i assume i would be accused of being Anti RTB) i see alot more blind defence of Ross and "stick with it, youll see" than i see hysterical responses to him. Hes not superman but he is accountable and right now were seeing regression from young players, ugly football and losses. Hes getting an appropriate amount of heat from supporters and given his "its not an excuse BUT" stuff an appropriate amount of heat from the media.

If everything isnt as bad as it always seems then surely you could apply the same thing to the Ross criticism. He probably shouldnt listen to ALL of it but some of it seems pretty apt.

Crouch is our best midfielder. Last year, he carried the midfield in Steele’s absence. So missing him means our midfield is 50% worse.. even with Steele in it..

Sinclair, Ross, Jones and the youngsters are just making up the numbers.. Dow unfortunately was also injured pre-season…

Midfield is everything.. and the quality of midfield decides on quality if clearances, ability to win contests and forward entries.. Even with Steele and Crouch, we’re left too much to too few.. Carlton for example has Cripps, Cerra, Kennedy and Hewett as strong inside types..

 

[The Jack]

On RTB

" Kane Cornes labelling him an ‘excuse machine’ "

They've all gone from loving his pressers to this overnight.

 

[littlecreatures]

On RTB

" Kane Cornes labelling him an ‘excuse machine’ "

They've all gone from loving his pressers to this overnight.

To be fair, Cornes has been consistent in his criticism of Saints and RTB

 

[Remboy]

To be fair, Cornes has been consistent in his criticism of Saints and RTB

To be fair, Cornes is critical of everyone and everything.