Rugby League..History and tradition etc.

[MoffOnTou]

Well,

Heading into this website, im not really expecting a 'balanced' debate (seeing this is an AFL website and all). But if people want to talk RL, id be more than obliged to respond.

Firstly, i doubt the validity of the first post. To think that someone said that Sydneysiders prefer 'rockclimbing' is ridiculous. Im from Sydney and that is just not right. Several other things caught my eye, but all i can say is head into a club like St Georges and you will see walls of memorabilia from every premiership they have won since 1921.

"Rugby League is dead". Its a common perception that people in AFL circles at the moment have at the moment. While we are throwing around facts, lets not forget that last week an AFL game drew 9,000 people, a second AFL team has been tried in Sydney and failed to draw more than 5,000 to a game and that the Swans game in Sydney on ch10 ran a long fourth in the ratings last week (during prime time slot).

Sure, league is not running at full speed at the moment. There are still big problems that we need to face. But lets not loose sight of the fact that no code is perfect. As much as some may want to believe, AFL is still fighting an uphill battle in the northern states.

Onto crowds. Well, AFL has always had it over league. But the general perception that league attracts '5,000 crowds' every week is silly. Try telling that to the 20,000 that were at the league game yesterday, or the 40,000 that will be at the game tonight or even the 107,000 that were at the grand final three years ago. Sure, we get our bad crowds. The crowds don't compare to AFL, not at all. But we have averaged 15,000 this year, which is close to an all time high for Rugby League.

I just hope people keep a bit of objectivity in this argument. League has a proud tradition that begun in 1895. Sure, it may not be immersed in the culture of the southern states, but remember, some clubs in Sydney are approaching 100 years of entertaining its fans. We to have tradition, believe it or not!

Cheers,
Moffo.

 

[sbagman]

Just my 2 cents on RL vs AFL, particularly in Brisbane.

I've lived in Brisbane for three and a half years. I do not know a single person who goes to Broncos games. I do not know one person who takes an interest in how the Broncos went on the weekend. If I was ever going to be converted to RL, it would be that I met a bunch of passionate supporters who dragged me along to the games.

In fact though, it's been the other way around. I've turned quite a few apathetic Queenslanders into (seemingly) passionate AFL fans by dragging them out to games.

Last week, the Broncos got 13,000 people to their match against the Panthers up here. And they're unbeaten. Can't imagine the Lions getting that small a crowd nowadays.

The only evidence I have for RL being bigger than AFL is its presence in the newspapers and on TV ads. Evidently, you don't have to be the biggest, you just have to tell everyone you are.

Sbagman.

 

[BMD]

A few points to make...

1. PA 1870 went to the worst possible club if he was looking for history. Cronulla (I refuse to call them the sharks) were admitted to the League in 1967 and have won diddly squat since.

However, the point he makes about the lack of interest in history and tradition generally is by and large true. This is not to say that no-one is interested in it, but the level of interest is minimal in comparison to the Southern states.

The thing that strikes anyone from Sydney when they spend time in Melbourne during winter is that EVERYONE talks footy. I know a couple of people who are not sports orientated at all who have lived in Melbourne and felt obliged to start supporting a team, just so they could have some conversation in winter. This has never been the case in Sydney for Rugby League. The question is why?

There are a few points that I think can explain partially the relative lack of passion and following for RL in Sydney.

1. It has never been the exclusive code of football. Rugby League has never really outgrown it's working class origins. The game of choice for the upper class, private schools etc has always been Rugby Union. True Union followers sneer at RL players and supporters.

2. Television. League is perfectly suited to television. Aussie rules isn't as so much that is important is going on away from the ball, and can't really be properly covered by TV. League doesn't suffer from this, if you watch a game of League on television you don't miss anything. Attendances to the game declined from about the 60s onwards in part due to the televising of games. People who grew up watching the game on TV will never be as passionate as people who grew up going to the ground.

3. Weather. Even in the middle of winter, picnics, going to the beach or out on the harbour are quite often viable options for a day out. Not every winter day obviously, but Sydney does get a lot of clear sunny days about 18-20 degrees even in July and August. Those who've said otherwise in this thread don't live here I notice.

4. The Pokies. Because clubs have relied on poker machine revenue to survive for decades now, they haven't bothered to keep or build relationships with their supporters. Just as long as they pump their hard earned through the machines, the clubs have been happy.

5. Let's face it - Aussie Rules is a better sport!

It is an interesting topic and I could go on for hours but I'll leave it there for the time being.

 

[Smokin]

Originally posted by BMD
2. Television. League is perfectly suited to television. Aussie rules isn't as so much that is important is going on away from the ball, and can't really be properly covered by TV. League doesn't suffer from this, if you watch a game of League on television you don't miss anything. Attendances to the game declined from about the 60s onwards in part due to the televising of games. People who grew up watching the game on TV will never be as passionate as people who grew up going to the ground.

What has bemused me is that this argument is often brough up (seems to be THE answer for lack of crowds), but channel 9 offers pathetic coverage of the game in Syd and Bris!!

why?

The answer is simple - ratings. 9 are in many ways an evil corporation fixed soley on the dollar, especially when it comes to sport - it will purchase rights so nobody else will have them, not necessarily to they will use them.

Ratings for League games cant be that fantastic. Two delayed games a week is pretty ordinary, lets be frank.

There is one of two answers here:

1. League isnt all that fantastic a game to watch on TV - or not many do watch it on TV - ie low ratings.

2. League supporters do watch it - there just arnt many League followers period, ie low ratings.

Either way - a lack of free to air tv of a sport can not be good.

Union is showed that much of Free to Air either up there.

Would it be wrong to suggest that Footy, as terribley as it is covered in Syd and Bris, would actually be the best covered code of football on free to air television?

Amazing.

 

[SydneyBomber]

Great topic!

Having lived in Sydney for 15 odd years (originally from Vic) I have seen what I believe to be the rise & fall & (sort of) rise again of RL.

I have lived in both Cronulla and the St.George area, and found it funny that you picked both those particular clubs.

As mentioned earlier, Cronulla is a team with no heart, no history & 'theatregoer' fans. A great place to live, except when there is a game on at 'Shark Park', when the Cronulla kiddies come out to get p issed and flop around.

If asked, I'd say I'm a Dragons fan, but only with a passing interest coming from having gone to school in that area, and having friends following the team. I've been to a few games, and seen passionate supporters giving their all....


BUT, there is no way in hell it compares with the tribalism in the AFL (in Victoria at least. I haven't been to SA or WA, so I can't comment).

It really didn't surprise me to read of the cluelessness about history shown at Cronulla - their leagues clubs are just another way to make money from pokies. These clubs are basically nothing more than local pubs/clubs, that happen to be owned by their respective teams. They are for the most part larger and earn more $$$ than their Victorian counterparts, but that comes with a loss of the tribalism important to the game.
For eg, supporters of different clubs who lived near St George Leagues club would go there for a night out (disco etc etc).

I don't know about you, but if I was asked to have a 'good night out' at the Carlton social club, I think I'd give it a miss and sit at home sticking a fork in my eye thanks.

That sort of tribalism doesn't seem to occur very often up here.

IMO RL really suffered during the SuperLeague debarcle, but ARE slowly regaining ground with the re-admission of Souths etc, and a concerted effort to win back support.

Unfortunately for us, I see so the AFL heading down the same path RL did with SuperLeague ($$ more important than passion)....

 

[Falchoon]

Originally posted by BMD
A few points to make...


3. Weather. Even in the middle of winter, picnics, going to the beach or out on the harbour are quite often viable options for a day out. Not every winter day obviously, but Sydney does get a lot of clear sunny days about 18-20 degrees even in July and August. Those who've said otherwise in this thread don't live here I notice.

But when Melbourne has fine winter days (I'm a golfer and they aren't as scarce as you think) the crowds go up, why isn't it the same in Sydney?

 

[BMD]

Originally posted by Smokin


What has bemused me is that this argument is often brough up (seems to be THE answer for lack of crowds), but channel 9 offers pathetic coverage of the game in Syd and Bris!!

why?

The answer is simple - ratings. 9 are in many ways an evil corporation fixed soley on the dollar, especially when it comes to sport - it will purchase rights so nobody else will have them, not necessarily to they will use them.

Ratings for League games cant be that fantastic. Two delayed games a week is pretty ordinary, lets be frank.

There is one of two answers here:

1. League isnt all that fantastic a game to watch on TV - or not many do watch it on TV - ie low ratings.

2. League supporters do watch it - there just arnt many League followers period, ie low ratings.

Either way - a lack of free to air tv of a sport can not be good.

Union is showed that much of Free to Air either up there.

Would it be wrong to suggest that Footy, as terribley as it is covered in Syd and Bris, would actually be the best covered code of football on free to air television?

Amazing.

I think the ratings for League are pretty strong. It comfortably wins it's timeslot every week.

The reason why there's not more on TV - here we get into the dim dark world of the Super League war. The Super League war was all about getting content for Rupert's pay TV. And in that goal, it was successful. Part of the fallout of that war is that Pay TV has the primary rights to 5 games a week. That's right 5!

Ironically enough, there is more coverage of the AFL than any other sport on free to air TV in Sydney.

Rugby League has:

1 Friday night game (8.30)
1 Sunday arvo game (4.00)

Union has

Super 12 coverage in the middle of the night (1 or 2 games)

the ABC shows 1 club rugby match on Saturday afternoons.

Tests will be live or close to live

AFL has:

Friday night (11:30 or thereabouts)

Saturday afternoon (2:00)

Saturday night (live if Swans are playing, 11:00 otherwise)

Sunday afternoon (1:00)

Sunday night replay (seems to have been about 2:00 monday morning.

 

[Smokin]

Youd think the worse the weather - the worse the crowd!

Thats how it works in most parts of the world - sounds like Sydney is different.

I guess if it pi$$es down next Gay mardi gras, Sydney siders will be out in force, recording record numbers??

Weird joint that Sydney.

They say their local sport isnt well attended, as everyone watches it on TV - but its not on TV!

They say the weather is the problem - what, people dont go because the weather is nice you say?

Many cities in the world celebrate a Mardi Gras - Sydney has to make it Gay and Lesbian.

Weird Joint.

Must be the water.

 

[BMD]

Originally posted by Falchoon


But when Melbourne has fine winter days (I'm a golfer and they aren't as scarce as you think) the crowds go up, why isn't it the same in Sydney?

Fair point which I don't really have an answer to. It's fair to say you would expect higher crowds on a nicer day.

The real answer is that football just isn't woven into the fabric of life in Sydney as it is in Melbourne. Why that is so, is the $64 thousand dollar question. Complex historical reasons no doubt which are certainly beyond my scope to answer.

The few theories I offer are partial explanations at best.

 

[Smokin]

Originally posted by BMD
The reason why there's not more on TV - here we get into the dim dark world of the Super League war.

Ok Fair enough.

Now lets forget about the reason - how is it an excuse for poor crowds? They argue because it's such a good TV sport, nobody goes. But hardly even on free TV!

Ironically enough, there is more coverage of the AFL than any other sport on free to air TV in Sydney.

Weird joint that Sydney.

 

[PAfolwr]

Originally posted by SydneyBomber

..............
.............
Unfortunately for us, I see so the AFL heading down the same path RL did with SuperLeague ($$ more important than passion)....

Surely you must be mistaken.
Have you any examples that may prove that?

 

[SydneyBomber]

Originally posted by PAfolwr


Surely you must be mistaken.
Have you any examples that may prove that?

haha - where would I start?

BTW, where did you stay whilst here if you were so close to Saints/Cronulla?

Just curious

 

[Danny Chook Fan Club]

What a strange topic! A sensible, thoughtful one. Most refreshing.

My little perspective on passion.

The teams I support(ed) in the AFL and the NRL both faced unsuitable, unfair "mergers" which were essentially nothing more than governing-body-sanctioned take-overs by totally unsuitable rival clubs.

My AFL team's supporters fought like hell in a shortened time frame to raise enough money to make the club solvent, run an anti-merger campaign to put up against both clubs, the AFL and the Melbourne media, voted overwhelmingly to go it alone and then banded together to turn a club on death's door into a stable, relatively powerful and (at least in the short term) safe entity.

My NRL team's supporters meekly rolled over and got taken over by Manly.

Someone made the point about CLUBS. This is the key. As soon as the competition is run for the benefit of the players, that's when supporters lose the passion. Because you can't follow players - they move between clubs chasing the almighty dollar, or success, or somewhere to play that's closer to home, or whatever.

But your CLUB! Your club is constant. It's always been there, and but for the grace of Wayne and co it always will.

Players, coaches, administration, presidents, dodgy away strips, they all come and go.

The only constants are the club and its supporters. It is a relationship that must be nurtured, facilitated and encouraged, because without it, the clubs become franchises, the supporters become customers and the sport becomes entertainment.

And the passion dies.

 

[sbagman]

Brilliant stuff DCFC.

No matter which game looks better on TV, it all comes down to passion.

 

[CyberKev]

Originally posted by Port Adelaide 1870

Saint George....several photos 3 or 4 paintings of former players ( badly painted ) a shield and lots and lots of neon, sparkling lights ATMs and poker machines....reception werent sure when St. George began..I left sadder still...

PA1870

PA1870...

As a Dragons fan I found it odd that the club (for so long the best known Australasian sporting club in the world), given its extremely colourful, dynamic and romanticised past would be so lacking re: memorabilia.

I've never been to the club personally, but Dragon tragics who have ensure me that you didn't get the full picture by any means when you dropped-by. Apparently the club reserves a special (and not insignificant) compound for its treasured historical mementos. High security by the sound of things, which wouldn't be remiss going by the unfortunate experiences of several Melbourne clubs that find themselves missing precious cups and flags.

Kevin

 

[MoffOnTou]

Gday,

It is an interesting post, and by in large, people aren't just flying off the handle with the old 'AFL is crap' or 'RL is crap' lines. Makes me a happy sports fan!

OK, now as for TV numbers. The AFL 'blockbuster' yesterday gave ch9 no.3 in the ratings for most of the game. It drew approximately 130,000 for most of the game, peaking at somewhere around the 160k mark. But, lets put it in perspective, it was outrated by Bold and the Beautiful, Repeats of Heartbeat and Oprah. Now, if that ain't proof that AFL isn't rating in Sydney than i dunno what is.

I hate to sound pessimistic, but that is the ugly side of AFL coverage that alot of 'southern media types' don't report in. Its not a blight on the game itself, its just a realisation that en masse, the games appeal to different cities. Its a cultural thing, to maybe give some people a bit more of a wider view on the issue, RL fans in general have never EVER been great attendors at the ground. Looking back through the archives, yearly attendance averages of 8,000 were not uncommon. As i said before, the current level of close on 15,000 is the best we have ever had!

But cheers all, good to see some balance.

Moffo.

 

[CyberKev]

Originally posted by Danny Chook Fan Club


The only constants are the club and its supporters. It is a relationship that must be nurtured, facilitated and encouraged, because without it, the clubs become franchises, the supporters become customers and the sport becomes entertainment.

And the passion dies.

Nice sentiments, Danny Chook...

I'm heartened by the fact that there are sports fans like you out there keeping the passion alive...

And I'm not just peeing in your pocket because your a good Hawthorn man either.

That just adds to your charm

Kevin

 

[BTige]

Going back to the weather. In the UK, you'll find that many of the strongest football (Soccer) clubs with the most passionate fans are to be found in what are often thought of as less salubrious towns and cities, ie, Newcastle, Sunderland, Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow.

I've never been to Melbourne, but I think I'd be correct in saying that it wouldn't be classed as a glamourous place by most people. I'm not suggesting Melbourne is inferior to Sydney, but that it's quite possible that it's great advantage over it's rival is it's relatively cooler climate has possibly made Melbournian's used to going out to the footy in conditions which might make your average Sydneysider stay at home.

 

[BMD]

Originally posted by Danny Chook Fan Club

Someone made the point about CLUBS. This is the key. As soon as the competition is run for the benefit of the players, that's when supporters lose the passion. Because you can't follow players - they move between clubs chasing the almighty dollar, or success, or somewhere to play that's closer to home, or whatever.

But your CLUB! Your club is constant. It's always been there, and but for the grace of Wayne and co it always will.

Players, coaches, administration, presidents, dodgy away strips, they all come and go.

The only constants are the club and its supporters. It is a relationship that must be nurtured, facilitated and encouraged, because without it, the clubs become franchises, the supporters become customers and the sport becomes entertainment.

And the passion dies.

You have the nub of it right there DCFC. It's about the club.

The rugby league clubs that have been turfed / merged have largely done so without a murmur from their supporters - Souths being the obvious exception.

I know any number of Wests / Balmain / Norths / Manly supporters who are pissed off with what happened to their club, but they have done nothing about it.

There have been supporters of all of these teams who have protested and fought, but in insufficient numbers to have an effect. Why this is so is an interesting question that I given a fair bit of thought to but haven't come to many conclusions about.

Part of it is because so many RL clubs were so beholden to either Rupert or Kerry for their continued financial existence, that there was no public figure from within the club or associated with the club willing to stand and fight against their desires. There was no equivalent of Don Scott for the Hawks or George Piggins for Souths - no rallying point.

 

[The Executioner]

Originally posted by Smokin

Youd think the worse the weather - the worse the crowd!

Maybe you shouldn't think

Thats how it works in most parts of the world - sounds like Sydney is different.

Based on?

I guess if it pi$$es down next Gay mardi gras, Sydney siders will be out in force, recording record numbers??

You're asking because you wish to attend or participate?

Weird joint that Sydney.

They often give the olympics to weird joints

They say their local sport isnt well attended, as everyone watches it on TV - but its not on TV!

But it is.All seven matches.
And who are they?

They say the weather is the problem - what, people dont go because the weather is nice you say?

You say or they say??
Make your mind up

Many cities in the world celebrate a Mardi Gras - Sydney has to make it Gay and Lesbian.

You really are quite taken by the Mardi Gras aren't you.Twice you mention it in one post.
Should it be banned??
Do you have any idea how it originally started?

Weird Joint.

So you've already said.

Must be the water.

Oh it must be

 

[Smokin]

Youd think the worse the weather - the worse the crowd!

Maybe you shouldn't think
Yea so crowds turn up more when it rains! Onya!

Thats how it works in most parts of the world - sounds like Sydney is different.

Based on?

Read the thread you dill

I guess if it pi$$es down next Gay mardi gras, Sydney siders will be out in force, recording record numbers??

You're asking because you wish to attend or participate?

Yea

Weird joint that Sydney.

They often give the olympics to weird joints

Ever been to Athens? I have. Besides, we had em in the 50's - your not exactly in the "exclusive club" there with that one.

They say their local sport isnt well attended, as everyone watches it on TV - but its not on TV!

But it is.All seven matches.
And who are they?

Read the thread you dill

They say the weather is the problem - what, people dont go because the weather is nice you say?

You say or they say??
Make your mind up

Youse isnt a word you dill

Many cities in the world celebrate a Mardi Gras - Sydney has to make it Gay and Lesbian.

You really are quite taken by the Mardi Gras aren't you.Twice you mention it in one post.
Should it be banned??
Do you have any idea how it originally started?

Do I give a $hit?

Weird Joint.

So you've already said.

Weird Joint

Must be the water.

Oh it must be [/B]

Now are you going to reply under usual handle - or are you going to create another one again?

 

[The Executioner]

Originally posted by Smokin

Youd think the worse the weather - the worse the crowd!

Maybe you shouldn't think
Yea so crowds turn up more when it rains! Onya!

Who said that??
drip

Thats how it works in most parts of the world - sounds like Sydney is different.

Based on?

Read the thread you dill

Why don't you??


I guess if it pi$$es down next Gay mardi gras, Sydney siders will be out in force, recording record numbers??

You're asking because you wish to attend or participate?

Yea

Was that a yea to both??

Weird joint that Sydney.

They often give the olympics to weird joints

Ever been to Athens? I have. Besides, we had em in the 50's - your not exactly in the "exclusive club" there with that one.

Who mentioned the word exclusive??
Read and comprehend before typing.

They say their local sport isnt well attended, as everyone watches it on TV - but its not on TV!

But it is.All seven matches.
And who are they?

Read the thread you dill

Great answer

They say the weather is the problem - what, people dont go because the weather is nice you say?

You say or they say??
Make your mind up

Youse isnt a word you dill

Who said it was?
Inever used it.
Drip

Many cities in the world celebrate a Mardi Gras - Sydney has to make it Gay and Lesbian.

You really are quite taken by the Mardi Gras aren't you.Twice you mention it in one post.
Should it be banned??
Do you have any idea how it originally started?

Do I give a $hit?

Seeing you keep bring it up it sounds like you do

Weird Joint.

So you've already said.

Weird Joint

Must be the water.

Oh it must be [/B]

Now are you going to reply under usual handle - or are you going to create another one again?

This is my only handle.Ask your moderators to check my ip and let them show you what a fool you are.

 

[Dr Zaius]

Originally posted by SMW
IMO, if that's the mentality that the Sydneysiders have got, then Rugby League is truly stuffed. No club has a truly big following (Maybe Sth. Sydney and the Broncos). Most, if not all the AFL Clubs have their own devotees, tradition and plenty of history about them.

I'm beginning to understand why there wasn't much of a fuss kicked up over the Northern Eagles, St. George Illawarra and the West Tigers being created out of Manly, Balmain, Wests, St. George, Illawarra and a few others. They just didn't care. Only Sth. Sydney did something about it. If one mention of the dreaded 'merger' is mentioned in Melbourne then you'll never hear the end of it.

The sad thing is that this is why Sydneysiders think they're better than us. They don't worship sport and we do.

The St George Illawarra merger made perfect sense. The 2 areas shared alot of tradition when only St George existed in the comp. (Saints played their first league match at Hurstville in 1921 and Illawarra started in 1982 I believe).

The Illawarra region has been a great nursery for St George players and before the introduction of the Steelers most of this area supported the Dragons anyway.

While the merger was forced the merged club recognises the tradition of St George (11 premierships in a row to name but 1) and as a St George supporter I was glad to include the Illawarra region as part of the St George supporter base (which it mostly already was). Look at the team guernsey and emblem if you think we have departed from tradition.

I was at the St George/Roosters game yesterday and the crowd had as much passion than any Swans match I have seen in my 4 years as a member (including from opposition cheer squads).

Ask Fitzroy about the "dreaded merger". Maybe none of their fans really cared???

I am glad most AFL supporters think Rugby League is stuffed. I'm sure they will think that for the next 100 years of NRL competition.

 

[Joffaboy]

Interesting to read some of these so called Sydneyites
1) The club is known as St George not St Georges
2) Rugby League first started in Australia in 1908 not 1895.
3) Sydney has NEVER had passion for Rugby League.
4) League will die as the Super 12's Union gets stronger.
5) League is NOW for bogan morons who cant understand Union.
6) If you believe League is better than AFL you have been sold a pup.

And as I've said I was born and bred in Sydney and was once a Bulldog supporter. Once I was immersed in the AFL culture and understood the actual game, I could see how superior it was to League.
I have now started to watch and enjoy the Super 12's and I find it much more enjoyable than League and its meaningless merged teams.
Sydney will never accept AFL as it doesn't understand it and is not willing to learn it for a number of reasons.
a) it is from Melbourne (and they know all things Sydney just has to be better, poor insecure little things)
b) it would mean actually changing mentality and getting a sports culture.

It is not an accident that Melbourne gets the major events in Sport (Grand Prix's, Melbourne Boxing Day Tests etc) as Sydney has not got what it takes to be a sporting city. Sure, they can concentrate for two weeks every hundred years when something like the Olympics is staged but as far as endurance, comittment, culture, and love of sport, Sydney is a pale soulless shadow compared to Melbourne.

 

[The Executioner]

Damn shame you can't back up your post with some facts.

It's just all your opinion and NOTHING more.