Roast Sack Horse

[Superstar swan]

What’s making me angrier is the up coming season.

#1 the media will be giving it to us all year

#2 and most important is that we will not have a year like last year. We aren’t going 13-1. Only then will it sink in what an absolute ****ing waste of a year 2024 was.

The pain is gonna get worse before it gets better.

 

[Caj]

What’s making me angrier is the up coming season.

#1 the media will be giving it to us all year

#2 and most important is that we will not have a year like last year. We aren’t going 13-1. Only then will it sink in what an absolute ****ing waste of a year 2024 was.

The pain is gonna get worse before it gets better.

So long as they’re putting the heat on Longmire, he’s had a free run from them for far too long

 

[Callipygian]

I'm sort of here myself.

Have defended Horse for a long time, though never blindly.

I've always believed that a club and team is only as good as the decisions it makes. Simple calls one way or the other can make or break a team. Horse has just gotten too many decisions wrong.

I genuinely think he has no idea what he's doing with the midfield. He cooked what could've been an outstanding two-way midfield duo in Rowbottom & Warner, instead doing the opposite and sending them to the polar extremes of their strengths. He showed awfully limited judgment with a quality mid in Hewett, who, even if you think we were right in trading, has clearly since proven himself to be much more than just the tagger that Horse saw him as. He waited til both Heeney and Mills were well into their mid-careers before moving them into the midfield where they've played their best footy and clearly made us better. (I advocated for keeping them up forward and down back, respectively. But I am not a senior coach being paid seven figures to get these things right...)

Deadset how are we supposed to trust him to get a midfield group functioning and firing when he can't even get his basic assessments of midfielders right?

But oh, it's the ruck's fault. We just haven't had a quality ruck to make the midfield better. Like I haven't just watched Darcy Fort, Darcy Cameron, Rhys Stanley, Nathan Vardy and Jordan Roughead walk up and have premiership medals put around their necks in recent years.

Then you move to the back-line. Rampe, Aliir, T. McCartin, P. McCartin, Melican, Grundy, Francis. Only one of these Swans defenders from the last eight years has won All Australian honours, and it was the one we traded because Horse wasn't convinced by him. Aliir was having close to an All Australian season with us in the first half of 2019. Callum Sinclair injures his shoulder in round 15, and Horse takes Aliir out of our already-vulnerable defence and moves him into the ruck, where he's not good and we get killed in there anyway, but we also get destroyed in defence without Aliir and it's a decision that kicks off a 6-game losing streak after we'd won the previous three in a row. Aliir loses form and confidence, and for what? Then the form he showed in 2020 which supposedly wasn't good enough to guarantee him a future with us is the same form now shown by McCartin this year when he was supposed to be Horse's guy to anchor our defence for the next decade while Aliir plays 24 games in defence in his first year at Port and earns All Australian honours. Another great piece of talent assessment by Horse. This is not me shitting on McCartin btw. I didn't think his season was that bad, but I didn't think Aliir's was in 2020, either. Perhaps this is why you don't get overconfident with your stocks and give up on young, fit, developing defenders. You might spend the next four or five years scrambling to find one as good.

Then the forward line. Was never able to truly make Buddy work in our team. The Buddy-centric issue was clear and plain for all to see the entire ten years he was at the club. Ten years, was never resolved. His commitment to the three talls was logical to a degree, it's the structure that generally made us one of the highest-scoring teams of the last 3-4 seasons. But he committed to it even when the talls weren't playing well enough. He committed to it even at the expense of having more pressure at ground level inside 50. Horse then goes into a grand final with ONE small forward and ZERO elite pressure players in his forward line, after seeing Melbourne, Geelong and Collingwood win the last three flags all having three such players at the very least in their forward lines. And we're then beaten by a team that have four. Bravo Horse.

The grand final issues of the last decade, haven't been resolved. Midfield issues of the better part of the last decade, haven't been resolved. The slow starts that plagued us all season long, weren't resolved.

All of this is not to say he's not still getting a lot of things right. But sometimes it's the things you get wrong that cost you the most. I feel that is where we are at with Horse.

Apologies for the rant.

This comment is basically just for you, caesar88 , because I haven't come here to bag Horse and I haven't read the rest of the thread and also because I'm here at your invitation.

Your comments are fair, particularly in this thread, but there are numerous parts I disagree with and I also disagree with your central thesis.

I don't agree with your evaluation of Horse's work with the midfield. "I genuinely think he has no idea what he's doing with the midfield. He cooked what could've been an outstanding two-way midfield duo in Rowbottom & Warner, instead doing the opposite and sending them to the polar extremes of their strengths." I think the first part is totally overblown and the second part is plain wrong. As explained earlier Horse has plenty of idea about how a midfield works and what to do with it, and so do his assistants, and so do the upper management that run the club. And to take the specific examples of Rowbottom and Warner is to take two of the best examples of how we have developed fantastic midfielders. Both of these players have far exceeded their draft positions and would be taken much earlier in a re-draft (especially Warner). The club gets a large slice of the credit for that, and so does Horse (only a slice but if he gets a slice of the blame he definitely should get his slice of credit too).

I was a massive Hewett fan and very sorry to see him go however I don't see that Horse underestimated him but rather the club had to make a tough choice when we had a stacked midfield and a bulging salary cap (from memory Hewett was an RFA showing he was among the 10% best paid at the club). More evidence of the club's appreciation of Hewett's worth was the way the coaches voted him 2nd in our 2019 B&F. Another reason to sacrifice Hewett was his medical history which we don't know much about but from what we do know includes serious back problems that he was managing week to week. IMO they handled the exit very professionally and gracefully and I think the club and Hewett pretty much knew they would split about a year out.

You can criticise the decisions to delay Heeney and Mills' moves to the midfield but there were reasons for them. Maybe they didn't make the right decisions (your point) but they were not dumb, unworthy decisions.

Again with Aliir, I don't think Horse didn't appreciate Aliir (who had indeed begun to show his worth) but rather Aliir was a victim of the need to get another ruck (which was clear) and the salary cap squeeze. Possibly Aliir was valued more by Port but Aliir is a brilliant and also flawed player - different people can rate him differently.

Anyway, to address your central thesis, that Horse has made too many mistakes, I don't agree. Yes, he's made mistakes (no doubt plenty) but not so many he should be sacked. Everyone is going to make mistakes. Every year. And when you have been around as long as Longmire there's going to be a taller stack of evidence to point to than if you're Sam Mitchell. Overall Horse gets far more right than he gets wrong.

As I mentioned in my other post, if you want to judge Horse by his results he has been a sensational coach for a long time and the only category which lets him down is our performance in GFs. Apart from that, he's brilliant. Yes, grand final performances are a massive caveat when flags are what we want, but it still is not the bigger picture. His record home and away is first class. His record in prelims is amazing. It's only Grand Finals where we **** it up so dependably. **** knows why. That, on its own, is not enough for me to give up on Horse. Yet.*


* I might revisit when we have lost 10 in a row.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

Basically if we make a prelim we make the GF iirc our record is 7-1 or something absurd.

 

[caesar88]

This comment is basically just for you, caesar88 , because I haven't come here to bag Horse and I haven't read the rest of the thread and also because I'm here at your invitation.

Your comments are fair, particularly in this thread, but there are numerous parts I disagree with and I also agree with your central thesis.

I don't agree with your evaluation of Horse's work with the midfield. "I genuinely think he has no idea what he's doing with the midfield. He cooked what could've been an outstanding two-way midfield duo in Rowbottom & Warner, instead doing the opposite and sending them to the polar extremes of their strengths." I think the first par is totally overblown and the second part is plain wrong. As explained earlier Horse has plenty of idea about how a midfield works and what to do with it, and so do his assistants, and so do the upper management that run the club. And to take the specific examples of Rowbottom and Warner is to take two of the best examples of how we have developed fantastic midfielders. Both of these players have far exceeded their draft positions and would be taken much earlier in a re-draft (especially Warner). The club gets a large slice of the credit for that, and so does Horse (only a slice but if he gets a slice of the blame he definitely should get his slice of credit too).

You missed the key part of my analysis of those two, which is that they "could've been an outstanding two-way midfield duo." Rowbottom came to the club with yes, great tackling ability, but he was also the second-best clearance player of his draft year, an explosive and creative contested ball-winner. Warner came to the club with yes, explosive burst of pace, but he was also cited for his tackling and defensive efforts as a junior, as well as his hardness in the contest. Horse has pushed them both towards the former parts of their game and somewhat abandoned the latter parts of their game. The proof is clear to see in the games this year. Rowbottom is on the record as saying that winning the ball "isn't a focus" for him in his role, and he's rewarded with podium finishes at the B&F. Warner has had countless games where he's been poor or sloppy defensively, and he's rewarded with coaches votes. Both great players? Absolutely. But neither great two-way players when they absolutely could've been.

I was a massive Hewett fan and very sorry to see him go however I don't see that Horse underestimated him but rather the club had to make a tough choice when we had a stacked midfield and a bulging salary cap (from memory Hewett was an RFA showing he was among the 10% best paid at the club). More evidence of the club's appreciation of Hewett's worth was the way the coaches voted him 2nd in our 2019 B&F. Another reason to sacrifice Hewett was his medical history which we don't know much about but from what we do know includes serious back problems that he was managing week to week. IMO they handled the exit very professionally and gracefully and I think the club and Hewett pretty much knew they would split about a year out.

You've also missed the part I mentioned about Hewett, which had nothing to do with us trading him (I was consistent that from a list management perspective it did not make sense to keep a player who was pushed out of the midfield and seen as little more than a tagger.) It was all to do with how Horse used Hewett whilst he had him. Many fans on here, rank amateurs including myself, repeatedly called for Hewett to be freed to be more of a ball-winning clearance player. We thought he had it in him, and God knows we needed more of that, whether it from Hewett or from someone else. Horse continually stuck with him as a tagger, until eventually he was phased out of the midfield altogether by 2021. He then goes to Carlton and is third in the competition for centre clearances that very year. Granted, injuries have held him back from being a consistent contributor at the Blues since, but Horse doesn't have that excuse. Hewett played 20+ games every year he was with us bar 2020. He just didn't want him in that role.

Re the rest of your post, I agree that Horse had reasons for his decisions. Of course he did. I don't think he's just a mad man tyrant who hates certain players so therefore wants to condemn them to underperformance, even at the expense of team success. I believe in his mind, he had reasons for the decisions he made and felt justified in them. But I think we are paying for those decisions now. We don't have a single midfielder who is as good as they could've been, we've been struggling for key defenders since Aliir's departure, tactical decisions this season - such as not prioritising pressure inside 50, being too stubborn with the three talls, playing too many flankers over contested players - cost us both within games and over the stretch of weeks.

If any of these decisions had worked out for the best - Aliir's departure had allowed McCartin to blossom into a defender who is better than Aliir; Hewett's departure had made our midfield so much more dynamic and powerful; Rowbottom and Warner being at such polar opposites in their roles had made for this incredible balance in the midfield, etc. - then I would be the first one on here singing Horse's praises. I just don't think they have worked out that way. They've added up to be net losses IMO. But of course everyone sees things differently.

 

[Callipygian]

You missed the key part of my analysis of those two, which is that they "could've been an outstanding two-way midfield duo." Rowbottom came to the club with yes, great tackling ability, but he was also the second-best clearance player of his draft year, an explosive and creative contested ball-winner. Warner came to the club with yes, explosive burst of pace, but he was also cited for his tackling and defensive efforts as a junior, as well as his hardness in the contest. Horse has pushed them both towards the former parts of their game and somewhat abandoned the latter parts of their game. The proof is clear to see in the games this year. Rowbottom is on the record as saying that winning the ball "isn't a focus" for him in his role, and he's rewarded with podium finishes at the B&F. Warner has had countless games where he's been poor or sloppy defensively, and he's rewarded with coaches votes. Both great players? Absolutely. But neither great two-way players when they absolutely could've been.



You've also missed the part I mentioned about Hewett, which had nothing to do with us trading him (I was consistent that from a list management perspective it did not make sense to keep a player who was pushed out of the midfield and seen as little more than a tagger.) It was all to do with how Horse used Hewett whilst he had him. Many fans on here, rank amateurs including myself, repeatedly called for Hewett to be freed to be more of a ball-winning clearance player. We thought he had it in him, and God knows we needed more of that, whether it from Hewett or from someone else. Horse continually stuck with him as a tagger, until eventually he was phased out of the midfield altogether by 2021. He then goes to Carlton and is third in the competition for centre clearances that very year. Granted, injuries have held him back from being a consistent contributor at the Blues since, but Horse doesn't have that excuse. Hewett played 20+ games every year he was with us bar 2020. He just didn't want him in that role.

Re the rest of your post, I agree that Horse had reasons for his decisions. Of course he did. I don't think he's just a mad man tyrant who hates certain players so therefore wants to condemn them to underperformance, even at the expense of team success. I believe in his mind, he had reasons for the decisions he made and felt justified in them. But I think we are paying for those decisions now. We don't have a single midfielder who is as good as they could've been, we've been struggling for key defenders since Aliir's departure, tactical decisions this season - such as not prioritising pressure inside 50, being too stubborn with the three talls, playing too many flankers over contested players - cost us both within games and over the stretch of weeks.

If any of these decisions had worked out for the best - Aliir's departure had allowed McCartin to blossom into a defender who is better than Aliir; Hewett's departure had made our midfield so much more dynamic and powerful; Rowbottom and Warner being at such polar opposites in their roles had made for this incredible balance in the midfield, etc. - then I would be the first one on here singing Horse's praises. I just don't think they have worked out that way. They've added up to be net losses IMO. But of course everyone sees things differently.

I suspect that Horse has convincing explanations for his decisions. The explanations may or may not satisfy you but I bet he could back them up with data and reasons and insight. I hate that the club does not explain that stuff candidly. Maybe there are good reasons they can't explain it all but I'm sure they could tell us more than they do. It might even make us feel better about supporting them. I'd love to watch you have a 1 hour interview with Horse focused only on his head coaching career with us. Then I'd learn something!

 

[caesar88]

I suspect that Horse has convincing explanations for his decisions. The explanations may or may not satisfy you but I bet he could back them up with data and reasons and insight. I hate that the club does not explain that stuff candidly. Maybe there are good reasons they can't explain it all but I'm sure they could tell us more than they do. It might even make us feel better about supporting them. I'd love to watch you have a 1 hour interview with Horse focused only on his head coaching career with us. Then I'd learn something!

I would fall to absolute pieces if I had to interview Horse for one hour. Which would be a shame, as I have many questions I would like to ask him, and in an earnest way, not a baying-for-his-head, I'm-gonna-burn-my-membership kind of way.

 

[Callipygian]

I would fall to absolute pieces if I had to interview Horse for one hour. Which would be a shame, as I have many questions I would like to ask him, and in an earnest way, not a baying-for-his-head, I'm-gonna-burn-my-membership kind of way.

I'd love to interview him! Or anyone else from the club.