Opinion Saints midfield ranked

[donq66]

• who are we going to draft this year, saints?
• oh how about a half bank flanker who reads the game like it was written in greek and couldn't get a kick in chinese street fight?
• hey also sydney need to offload some flog whose hamstrings are wound tighter thatn violin strings? he's super expensive but he's a mate so.
• where do we sign?

 

[bergholt]

• who are we going to draft this year, saints?
• oh how about a half bank flanker who reads the game like it was written in greek and couldn't get a kick in chinese street fight?
• hey also sydney need to offload some flog whose hamstrings are wound tighter thatn violin strings? he's super expensive but he's a mate so.
• where do we sign?

Or we’ll draft a tall guy who just grew 4 inches overnight, doesn’t really play key position but can’t touch his toes so definitely can’t play midfield. But in 6-8 years he might work out how to play footy.

 

[borderbarry]

I am hoping that after tonights game our midfield needs t0 be re-ranked.

 

[Saintbloke]

Jeez, we need a big turnaround in attitude tonight, as we looked like a wet lettuce against Carlton.

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

Steele is a top of the tree player like MacCrae, Wines etc but Martin is a superstar. Dustin Martin influences games more than just about any I've seen in my lifetime. Steele statistically might beat him but if you asked any neutral observer who they'd prefer.... we all know the answer.

Martin would have a bigger impact than most elite mids except for maybe Petracca now. I don't think even Bont comes close and he's s star too.

Yep stats don’t tell the story. It’s things like him in the grand final just deciding to kick goals and go and get clearances at a whim. It’s him breaking a game open exactly when they need him to. And he does it so often and so consistently in big moments it’s not coincidence.

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

Dustin Martin - had a chance to recruit him
Petracca - had the chance to draft him
Bont - had the chance to draft him

Dusty would have been arrested or something if we had him. Bont would have done 4 acls then retired. Petracca would have become fat, unfit then delisted

 

[ike2112]

Didn't he only play two full VFL games last year and get 38 possessions in one of them? How many would you like him to get?

That was the game Essendon had to play a bunch of guys from their ressies and didn't have a recognised ruck. I watched it (the stream is still online actually), largely as it was Hanners' first action back (and he was well off fitness wise, you can see him twice hands on knees).
But fact is Bytel doesn't really do anything specific particularly well. I mean what is he; doesn't run-with or get loads of tackles, isn't quick, he's so-so at both handball and kicks, doesn't get goals resting forward (normally just comes off to be fair so rarely gets the chance). This all sounds very harsh, fact is he's not terrible at those things either (unlike some), but he just doesn't look like a best-22 AFL player so far. If he's playing 22 games and doesn't look better than last year, we're in real trouble.

 

[ike2112]

Dusty would have been arrested or something if we had him. Bont would have done 4 acls then retired. Petracca would have become fat, unfit then delisted

I know you're joking, but Petracca did take a while to come through. I've a couple Demons mates who wanted him traded heading into covid's first year. Felt he was just a tease, playing too much time forward, never seemed willing to work to get the engine for the middle.

If he had been at St Kilda, would we have given up on him then when the Dees didn't? Or actually would he never have turned it around, just sat comfortable knowing that his underachieving self from say 2018 & 19 was still enough to make him a top 6 or 7 player on our list anyway?...

 

[gringo2011]

That was the game Essendon had to play a bunch of guys from their ressies and didn't have a recognised ruck. I watched it (the stream is still online actually), largely as it was Hanners' first action back (and he was well off fitness wise, you can see him twice hands on knees).
But fact is Bytel doesn't really do anything specific particularly well. I mean what is he; doesn't run-with or get loads of tackles, isn't quick, he's so-so at both handball and kicks, doesn't get goals resting forward (normally just comes off to be fair so rarely gets the chance). This all sounds very harsh, fact is he's not terrible at those things either (unlike some), but he just doesn't look like a best-22 AFL player so far. If he's playing 22 games and doesn't look better than last year, we're in real trouble.

I think that's probably a bit harsh. He's hardly played even at VFL level. He went down when he was 16 and didn't really get fit enough to play until he was 19. Covid hit and proper matches were called off and he was then given the medical sub role where he'd come on for 15 minutes at the end of games. When he does play his disposal is a stand out, his biggest issue is getting enough of the ball for a one position mid.

He's frustratingly slow to come on but when you look at how his development has gone it looks pretty self explanatory. When you look at him compared to Steele he's got about 2/3 of his stats but averages 50% game time where Steele averaged 75% at the same age so not much difference. To me he needs VFL games to hone his craft until he starts to kick the door down or a starting spot if they think he's ready to go now. If he can elevate himself there is an opportunity now through injury.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I think that's probably a bit harsh. He's hardly played even at VFL level. He went down when he was 16 and didn't really get fit enough to play until he was 19. Covid hit and proper matches were called off and he was then given the medical sub role where he'd come on for 15 minutes at the end of games. When he does play his disposal is a stand out, his biggest issue is getting enough of the ball for a one position mid.

He's frustratingly slow to come on but when you look at how his development has gone it looks pretty self explanatory. When you look at him compared to Steele he's got about 2/3 of his stats but averages 50% game time where Steele averaged 75% at the same age so not much difference. To me he needs VFL games to hone his craft until he starts to kick the door down or a starting spot if they think he's ready to go now. If he can elevate himself there is an opportunity now through injury.

Bytel is doing fine.
Notable games : ( of his 16 total , including the above mentioned Sub games ).
Debut Game: Round 11 2020. 5 Clearances, 18 Disposals, 8 Contested possessions. 73% TOG. -- Pretty good debut.

Round 1 2021 : 6 Clearances, 13 Disposals, 7 Contested Possessions, 10 Tackles, 75% TOG.
Round 4 2021 : 5 Clearances , 19 Disposals, 10 Contested Possessions , 7 Tackles , 66% TOG.
Round 7 2021 : 7 Clearances , 21 Disposals, 12 Contested Possessions , 8 Tackles , 73% TOG.

He proceeded to achieve less , in what was probably a long season for him. ( And of course the first part of last season is probably beyond the memory of most here ).

In case anyone can't see what Bytel is probably going to do particularly well through his career.

CLEARANCES
TACKLES
CONTESTED POSSESSIONS

 

[bird_man]

Just found this article ranking every team's midfield. They had Hawthorn at 18 and Collingwood at 17.

(16) St Kilda

If Jack Steele wasn't a member of the St Kilda football club you can best believe that they would rank dead last on this list.

The Saints midfielders, outside of Steele have dramatically underdelivered to date. Zak Jones is still hoping to see his best in the red, white and black, while Seb Ross, Bradley Hill and Daniel Hannebery are clearly past their primes and are depreciating assets at this point who are taking spots in the best 22 away from some youngsters pushing for a crack at the top flight.

Adding to St Kilda's woes is that the departure of inside midfielder Luke Dunstan, which costs them a formidable ball-winner and leaves Brad Crouch as the Robin to Steele's Batman. The major concern is that while Crouch can get his mitts on the footy he is quick to dish the hands instead of taking the game on, likely due to his subpar kicking efficiency as he went at an abysmal 50% by foot in 2021.

The Saints ranked 17th for centre clearances and 15th in rebound 50's, which communicates their over-reliance on Steele to win the ball and their lack of ability to win the footy when he's being targeted at stoppages. Additionally, St Kilda's mids have a laissez-faire work rate when it comes to hustling down the field on counter-attacks, which handicaps their offensive opportunities. Essentially, they're lazy.

While Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera should add some dash on the wing, St Kilda's current crop of onballers doesn't present much room for improvement. Furthermore, their ruck stocks in Paddy Ryder and Rowan Marshall are hampered with injuries, which only furthers their troubles if no one else can step up.

Thought this was worth sharing on this thread.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Thought this was worth sharing on this thread.

Yep , don't know how we ever lost a game during the decade we had "formidable" Dunstan playing.

 

[hayes]

Hard to argue with much of that. Only ordinary part was about Dunstan who is no loss.

That’s why the Clark injury is so frustrating. I know it’s only a few weeks but it would’ve been nice to say we’ve FINALLY got a young A grade midfielder coming through after all these years instead of talking about the potential of having one. Instead…..we continue to wait.

 

[Nutsngum]

Hard to argue with much of that. Only ordinary part was about Dunstan who is no loss.

That’s why the Clark injury is so frustrating. I know it’s only a few weeks but it would’ve been nice to say we’ve FINALLY got a young A grade midfielder coming through after all these years instead of talking about the potential of having one. Instead…..we continue to wait.

If by hard you actually meant "pretty easy" then sure that would be accurate.

Its a shallow opinion piece that claims that 28yo players are "taking games away" from young kids which is utter triple in any football club and then claims we are a bad midfield if we are missing all our best players.

No we do not have the best midfield in the comp but it genuinely sits about in the middle by any measurable stats.

 

[The_Steadier]

it genuinely sits about in the middle by any measurable stats.

Except for clearances.
Lucky those have nothing to do with midfielders

 

[gringo2011]

Hard to argue with much of that. Only ordinary part was about Dunstan who is no loss.

That’s why the Clark injury is so frustrating. I know it’s only a few weeks but it would’ve been nice to say we’ve FINALLY got a young A grade midfielder coming through after all these years instead of talking about the potential of having one. Instead…..we continue to wait.

He was our second best mid in the second half of the season. He was pretty shit his entire career but he was bloody good when he played angry. People have discounted his output to save their sanity at him walking out but he was playing top footy before he left. Coaches votes, Brownlow votes and stats don't lie no matter how people want to frame it.

 

[hayes]

He was our second best mid in the second half of the season. He was pretty sh*t his entire career but he was bloody good when he played angry. People have discounted his output to save their sanity at him walking out but he was playing top footy before he left. Coaches votes, Brownlow votes and stats don't lie no matter how people want to frame it.

I’m basing it off countless years of Dunstan having second half resurgences which lead to nothing the following year and that’s what will happen again. A few good weeks doesn’t eliminate 8 years my friend.

 

[Ricmel]

Feel free to debate me, but I Think when you look at it, our midfield stacks up reasonably well against the comp.

Yeah,

I think your bias has had a big influence on your rankings. Port, Sydney, Geelong I think could all make an argument that their midfields are stronger and Richmond had an off year but if they find form again it is straight into top 3 or 4.

I think our midfield is not the weakness it was 2014 -2019 but even if your rankings were bang on, 4 of the 5 that you list above ours are well above ours and it is hard to win a flag with the 5th best mids (by some way).

"Dusty is obviously a gun, Prestia never plays, cotchin gone way backwards, Edwards is a good player, the others are just meh"

This is easy to say but if I was supporter of another team I would be looking at our mids and saying,

"Bunch of no name ball butchers. All falls on one man."

- see how easy it is?

 

[Ricmel]

This current list basically what we'll have to run with for our next tilt

Oh dear. Then I'm afraid there will be no tilt.

 

[Chef Ratts]

Just throw Ben Paton in there for a few CBA's. We can cover him down back, he's good one on one, seems to kinda have a low centre of gravity, a bit like gresh, and is well balanced and a good tackler.

 

[bergholt]

Bytel is doing fine.
Notable games : ( of his 16 total , including the above mentioned Sub games ).
Debut Game: Round 11 2020. 5 Clearances, 18 Disposals, 8 Contested possessions. 73% TOG. -- Pretty good debut.

Round 1 2021 : 6 Clearances, 13 Disposals, 7 Contested Possessions, 10 Tackles, 75% TOG.
Round 4 2021 : 5 Clearances , 19 Disposals, 10 Contested Possessions , 7 Tackles , 66% TOG.
Round 7 2021 : 7 Clearances , 21 Disposals, 12 Contested Possessions , 8 Tackles , 73% TOG.

He proceeded to achieve less , in what was probably a long season for him. ( And of course the first part of last season is probably beyond the memory of most here ).

In case anyone can't see what Bytel is probably going to do particularly well through his career.

CLEARANCES
TACKLES
CONTESTED POSSESSIONS

Agreed, benchmarks for him are presumably Wines, Oliver, Steele, Lyons, Adams, etc. But all of them get 27+ possessions a game, because that's necessary to have impact in that role, so that's what we'll be judging him on mainly.

 

[Veer Right]

He was our second best mid in the second half of the season. He was pretty sh*t his entire career but he was bloody good when he played angry. People have discounted his output to save their sanity at him walking out but he was playing top footy before he left. Coaches votes, Brownlow votes and stats don't lie no matter how people want to frame it.

Yep but people will not let his 2020 form and before go.

What bothers me most when watching St Kilda is who's going to stand up to the other big units in the middle?

Answer - It's going to be another year of Steele having to do it all by himself UNLESS we start playing Marshall full time in the ruck who acts as an extra mid who has balls.

 

[Yawkey way]

I love Martin as much as the next guy. He has Steele covered with his turn of foot from clearances and his goal nous yet he has the luxury to play to his strengths with his teammates doing a lot of the heavy lifting which allows him to get off the chain.

Who does our heavy lifting? Ross? The man who is 50/50 to hit a target 20m away.

Remember last year, round one. Steele was tearing GWS up in the first half. Start the second half, he's got two players on him locked to his every move with the GWS ruck tapping it in any direction Steele was not. Hunter Clark starred in our win due to having no freakin man on him!

Anyway Martin is a freak nature regardless.

Martin is an absolute champion. Without Steele we have possibly the worst midfield in the competition.

 

[Yawkey way]

Someone told me he’s seen dunstan doing extra sessions at elsternwick park vafa ground. He said the sessions consist of Luke working on moving the ball on quickly with 30 odd metre low darts. I doubt it’s going to do him much good he’s behind some very good mids but good luck to him. It would be nice to hear of a few of our players doing extra work on their weaknesses.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Yep but people will not let his 2020 form and before go.

What bothers me most when watching St Kilda is who's going to stand up to the other big units in the middle?

Answer - It's going to be another year of Steele having to do it all by himself UNLESS we start playing Marshall full time in the ruck who acts as an extra mid who has balls.

Crouch wins contested ball ( 19 against the Crows ), Tackles, wins clearances.
Steele is NOT doing it all himself.
Others will get their shot in the middle. You might find that Ross, Higgins etc get shot in the centre. Add it all up and its helping.