News Sam Hayes signs for North Melbourne VFL

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Tibbs said:
Mate, you have an agenda, and are twisting details around to suit it. These are the real facts about Butcher:
*He was extremely impressive at the AFL Draft Camp, with his speed (2.99 sec over 20 m) and repeat sprints (24.88 sec)
*He was in the top 28 percent of all players (impressive for a big man).
*He kicked 40 goals for the year for Gippsland & Vic Country in 16 games.
*He was a Vic Country Under-18 representative in both 2008 and 2009,
*He was also an AIS-AFL Academy graduate
*He was widely tipped to be the first key position player to be selected in the 2009 draft.

Tredrea called him a 'super talent,' and his Gippsland coach Aussie Jones, raved about him. So if we didnt select him, he would have gone quickly after.

With the stress fractures in his spine, which was known, he had to be given time to heal before even playing in the sanfl. Then as KPP, he was always going to be given time to develop in the 2's first. So no pre-season in 09/10, and only getting on the park for one sanfl reserves game late in the year. Then still a limited preseason in 10/11. Then in 2011, Rohde had this to say: ''With John we always took the view that he was going to take a while to catch his breath, we just tried to build up his fitness and his core because we knew he'd have problems with his legs if he didn't get his core right.''

True to that, he suffered early hamstring injuries in 2011, no doubt owing to his rehab and limited preseasons - very easy for a player to push & strain a hammy. Finally managing 10 sanfl games, then getting his AFL break late in the season.

What irritates me, is your use of hyperbole!
Firstly, the "we drafted a totally beaten up player" BS! ... He had just starred in his draft year with 40 goals, and starred in the draft camp!
Secondly the sneaky use of "09 till the end of 2011" ... Implying THREE years! He was a skinny tall KPP, and then he played developing games in his second year, with an AFL debut late. Pretty OK for a 20yo KPP, esp considering he entered the system with a back fracture!

No Hinkley hogwash, and none of your BS hyperbole, just basic facts. Who was to blame for his AFL failure? Did his spine stress fractures, and later hip operation affect him? Was he limited by his own mental gremlins? Was he a victim of the Hinkley-Factor? We will never know, but what is clear that he was definitely a young talent that for some reason couldnt reach his potential.
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run the eye test over him and you’ll find he was no good at the level and never given another chance By anyone.

only forward I can remember who would lead up, go for the mark and it would hit him flush on the forehead…
 
If El_Scorcho applied logic to his obsession with Butcher, he'd realise that Butcher's failing at Port was that he never put on defensive pressure, which is a prerequisite for any forward in modern AFL. Especially when you're trying to play a high-pressure high press style of defence.

Let's put it this way. In his 31 game career, Butcher had 6 games where he managed to lay more than 2 tackles in a game.

Todd Marshall had 9 games with more than 2 tackles last season.

Jeremy Finlayson had 7 games with more than 2 tackles last season.

****, even Charlie Dixon had 4 games where he laid more than 2 tackles (and the year before he had 7 games where he laid more than 2). And when Mitch Georgiades comes back in the side, one of the things I never have to worry about his his intensity of effort when it comes to defending.

Everyone would have forgiven his shit kicking for goal if he had put on pressure in the forward line.
 
240volt said:
Innocent until proven guilty
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I'm taking the piss. However, I think the Hayes is crap and would never make it crowd can't in all seriousness say that and be certain. The fact is that if Donuts didn't want to use a Hayes style ruckman because he didn't fit our system then he should have been delisted some time ago or not picked up in the first place.

If someone said that Hayes got delisted because he smokes 2 packs of Camels per day - I'd say fine.

The truth is in the middle we'll never know whether he was any good because he didn't ever get enough games in a row at AFL level and for some reason was under used in the SANFL too.

Blame who you want but Donuts is generally at the root of all things evil at Alberton.
 
longdonkey said:
I'm taking the piss. However, I think the Hayes is crap and would never make it crowd can't in all seriousness say that and be certain. The fact is that if Donuts didn't want to use a Hayes style ruckman because he didn't fit our system then he should have been delisted some time ago or not picked up in the first place.

If someone said that Hayes got delisted because he smokes 2 packs of Camels per day - I'd say fine.

The truth is in the middle we'll never know whether he was any good because he didn't ever get enough games in a row at AFL level and for some reason was under used in the SANFL too.

Blame who you want but Donuts is generally at the root of all things evil at Alberton.
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He won a B&F at SANFL level & did an acl in his time here as well, anyone claiming he was a complete hack is a deadshit moron.
 
longdonkey said:
What needs to be talked about is whether there's a pattern going on and who/what is responsible for our big guys to ever be successful.
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We draft a ruckman and then spit it when they aren’t playing as Ruckmen. The old days, a Ruckman would do an apprenticeship in a back pocket, similarly to CHF’s on a Wing. It’s all plug and play now.
 
longdonkey said:
What needs to be talked about is whether there's a pattern going on and who/what is responsible for our big guys to ever be successful.
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Hard to find real good big guys, a lot of teams have meh rucks that compete at the best but there’s not a lot that are the total package.
Sometimes I think the game has moved past the old fashioned tap type ruckman and it’s more about mobility and marking around the ground.
Someone like big Max is a massive advantage but in reality they are like Hens teeth.
 
RangaInTeal said:
We draft a ruckman and then spit it when they aren’t playing as Ruckmen. The old days, a Ruckman would do an apprenticeship in a back pocket, similarly to CHF’s on a Wing. It’s all plug and play now.
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Which ruckmen started off in a back pocket? I can't recall any in the last 45 years.
 

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240volt said:
Hard to find real good big guys, a lot of teams have meh rucks that compete at the best but there’s not a lot that are the total package.
Sometimes I think the game has moved past the old fashioned tap type ruckman and it’s more about mobility and marking around the ground.
Someone like big Max is a massive advantage but in reality they are like Hens teeth.
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I'm thinking that Hinkley wouldn't have played Primus and Lade because they couldn't get around the ground quick enough.
 
longdonkey said:
I'm thinking that Hinkley wouldn't have played Primus and Lade because they couldn't get around the ground quick enough.
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Lade was very good marking around the ground and up forward plus he kicked goals from anywhere.
Primus tap work was top shelf and even with his kicking action he was good for some goals up forward.
Not sure but I think he kicked 4 before halftime in a game he got injured in.
I know Ken is shyt but it would be impossible not to play those two.
 
240volt said:
Lade was very good marking around the ground and up forward plus he kicked goals from anywhere.
Primus tap work was top shelf and even with his kicking action he was good for some goals up forward.
Not sure but I think he kicked 4 before halftime in a game he got injured in.
I know Ken is shyt but it would be impossible not to play those two.
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It was a facetious remark but I'm so sick of the mismanagement of these clowns I'm just getting tired of the continuous excuses and then the scapegoats. And then even worse, the smoke screen of will Boak get another contract to divert form the disaster of the finals campaign. As if Hinkley was going to delist him, it would be the greatest Judas act of all time after the way Boak has backed him stupidly. But I wouldn't put it past him.
 
El_Scorcho said:
Just for posterity in this thread

Riley Bonner 93 games under Hinkley
Jed McEntee 32* games under Hinkley
Boyd Woodcock 12 games under Hinkley
Martin Frederick 14 games under Hinkley
Aidyn Johnson 11 games under Hinkley
Jake Neade 66 games under Hinkley
Kane Mitchell 35 games under Hinkley
Sam Gray 96 games under Hinkley
Nathan Krakouer 29 games under Hinkley
Cam O'Shea 59 games under Hinkley
Andrew Moore 36 games under Hinkley
Aaron Young 64 games under Hinkley
Paul Stewart 36 games under Hinkley
Cam Sutcliffe 9 games under Hinkley
Matt Thomas 4 games under Hinkley

Just a touch under 600 games for the low ceiling small brigade.

Couldn't possibly have gotten another 30 games into Butcher or Hayes though.
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Couldn't even do it right with Bonner and Gray to move them into F/S criteria too.
 
Windy Cindy said:
It should be telling you Hayes and butcher weren’t up to it

as Well as the coaching group

add the board as well
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We've developed 2 players drafted this millennium who play KPF or Ruck into established AFL players. One of those players spent about 12 months at that level before falling in a hole.

We're not just unlucky. Plenty of far lesser talents have had good careers in this league.

Macca19 said:
Yeah but he wasnt. Butcher was a gangly bloke with almost no strength who was regularly caught miles out of position and the worst kicking action we’ve seen.

The fact he didnt get another shot, when third tier KPPs regularly get passed around the league says it all.
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No strength is horseshit.

Being miles out of position will happen when you can't build any chemistry with your forwards and mids because you're never allowed to string games together, playing in a highly unusual forward structure.

It's difficult to fix your kicking action when we know for a fact that several set shot routine experts (including one of his teammates) offered their services and were knocked back. His field kicking was fine.

The fact that he didn't get another shot (the same for Hayes) is heavily influenced by the fact that a team who has a massive need in the position he plays refuses to play him. We ****ed up the development of both of these players and we now have to spend significant draft capital and salary cap space to bring in bang average players to play ruck and KPF.

The club under Hinkley has absolutely no idea how to develop a tall player to their potential. We have no idea what potential in a KPF or ruckman looks like or how to foster it. We've repeatedly played players out of position or completely incapable players in these positions instead of giving the guy with the most obvious talent a run of games to get up to speed, apart from Marshall who is a significant outlier here.
 
Janus said:
If El_Scorcho applied logic to his obsession with Butcher, he'd realise that Butcher's failing at Port was that he never put on defensive pressure, which is a prerequisite for any forward in modern AFL. Especially when you're trying to play a high-pressure high press style of defence.

Let's put it this way. In his 31 game career, Butcher had 6 games where he managed to lay more than 2 tackles in a game.

Todd Marshall had 9 games with more than 2 tackles last season.

Jeremy Finlayson had 7 games with more than 2 tackles last season.

*, even Charlie Dixon had 4 games where he laid more than 2 tackles (and the year before he had 7 games where he laid more than 2). And when Mitch Georgiades comes back in the side, one of the things I never have to worry about his his intensity of effort when it comes to defending.

Everyone would have forgiven his s**t kicking for goal if he had put on pressure in the forward line.
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Todd Marshall and Jeremy Finlayson are established AFL key forwards playing in a different era in terms of what key forwards were expected to do defensively. Todd Marshall is specfically good at forward pressure, more so than the average key forward.

Through no part of Butcher's career were we playing a high press style of defence, we were playing the slingshot and brought the high press in in 2017.

Let's compare apples with apples.

In Finlayson's first 31 games he had 5 games where he managed to lay more than 2 tackles.

In Dixon's first 31 games, he had 8 games where he managed to lay more than 2 tackles, and that's despite playing in the ruck a lot.

The best KPF in Butcher's draft class, Jack Gunston, had 7 games with more than 2 tackles in his first 31 games

I don't think it was about the tackle numbers mate.
 
El_Scorcho said:
Todd Marshall and Jeremy Finlayson are established AFL key forwards playing in a different era in terms of what key forwards were expected to do defensively. Todd Marshall is specfically good at forward pressure, more so than the average key forward.

Through no part of Butcher's career were we playing a high press style of defence, we were playing the slingshot and brought the high press in in 2017.
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"You don't defend, you don't play" has been a staple of the Hinkley era since he arrived.
El_Scorcho said:
Let's compare apples with apples.
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Yes, let's compare apples with apples. Key forwards that actually played in the Port Adelaide system, rather than key forwards that played at other clubs - particularly two expansion clubs that were getting absolutely flogged in their first two seasons.

Jay Schulz 2013 - 7 games where he had more than 2 tackles.
Jay Schulz 2014 - 8 games where he had more than 2 tackles.
Jay Schulz 2015 - 7 games where he had more than 2 tackles.

Jackson Trengove 2017 - 10 games where he had more than 2 tackles.

Patrick Ryder 2015 - 7 games where he had more than 2 tackles.

Dougal Howard 2016 - 4 games where he had more than 2 tackles, out of the 6 he played.

P.S. Ollie Lord had 4 games where he had more than 2 tackles out of 13 he played this year.
El_Scorcho said:
I don't think it was about the tackle numbers mate.
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If it wasn't about the tackle numbers, how is it that every single key position player that has spent any time in a Ken Hinkley coached forward line has known the value of defensive pressure but old mate Butcher never seemed to grasp it? Even Jackson Trengove in 2017 understood what the role required.

Now, you can say that asking a key forward to put on that kind of pressure is stupid and shows just how clueless Hinkley is. That's a difference in philosophy and you're welcome to it. What I'm saying is that if a key forward wants to play in a Hinkley forward line, they have to put on defensive pressure...and that is exactly what kept Butcher out of the side. Because when it wasn't his day he never found ways to contribute.

And the reason why no one picked him up from other clubs (while guys like Lienert and Bonner get second chances) is because no club in the AFL can afford a player who is only willing to work one way.
 
Janus said:
"You don't defend, you don't play" has been a staple of the Hinkley era since he arrived.

Yes, let's compare apples with apples. Key forwards that actually played in the Port Adelaide system, rather than key forwards that played at other clubs - particularly two expansion clubs that were getting absolutely flogged in their first two seasons.
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What was happening at the club for Butcher's first few seasons again? Any floggings?

Jay Schulz 2013 - 7 games where he had more than 2 tackles.
Jay Schulz 2014 - 8 games where he had more than 2 tackles.
Jay Schulz 2015 - 7 games where he had more than 2 tackles.
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Jay Schulz was an established player in 2013, not a developing player trying to find his feet.

Jackson Trengove 2017 - 10 games where he had more than 2 tackles.

Patrick Ryder 2015 - 7 games where he had more than 2 tackles.

Dougal Howard 2016 - 4 games where he had more than 2 tackles, out of the 6 he played.
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Lmao, these guys all played significant ruck minutes. They weren't getting their tackles inside 50 and providing frontal pressure anymore than Butcher was.

P.S. Ollie Lord had 4 games where he had more than 2 tackles out of 13 he played this year.
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P.S. Butcher averages more tackles per game than Lord across his career. This is despite Lord playing exclusively in an era where we play a high press and Butcher exclusively playing in an era where we didn't play a high press.

If it wasn't about the tackle numbers, how is it that every single key position player that has spent any time in a Ken Hinkley coached forward line has known the value of defensive pressure but old mate Butcher never seemed to grasp it? Even Jackson Trengove in 2017 understood what the role required.
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You'd hope Trengove understood defence given he was a defender. Despite the fact that he "understood what the role required", he went so well that he got dropped for a debutant teenager for the pointy end of the season.

Now, you can say that asking a key forward to put on that kind of pressure is stupid and shows just how clueless Hinkley is. That's a difference in philosophy and you're welcome to it. What I'm saying is that if a key forward wants to play in a Hinkley forward line, they have to put on defensive pressure...and that is exactly what kept Butcher out of the side. Because when it wasn't his day he never found ways to contribute.
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I think it's pretty obvious that Ken Hinkley doesn't understand what KPFs are good for and doesn't know how to get the best out of them, or what that would even look like. My entire argument is that we could have drafted Charlie Curnow, Joe Daniher or Nick Larkey and they'd have been shit, where as Butcher (and Hayes) could have had a perfectly good career if they'd been drafted elsewhere.

And the reason why no one picked him up from other clubs (while guys like Lienert and Bonner get second chances) is because no club in the AFL can afford a player who is only willing to work one way.
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No, the main reason Bonner and Lienert got given a second chance is because they got delisted from a team that was mostly winning and had depth in their position keeping them out of the side. Hayes and Butcher didn't get a second go because they had their development ruined by poor coaching and weren't getting picked despite a dire situation at the club in the position they played. If Hayes had played every game Lycett was out over the past 2 seasons, he'd have gotten a contract somewhere.
 
John Butcher averaged more tackles per game over his career than Warren Tredrea. I'd make a joke about 'so would Hinkley have delisted Tredrea too?', but honestly, it's Hinkley, I wouldn't rule it out.
 
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