Samantha Murphy Ballarat * Patrick Orren Stephenson Charged With Murder

[Kurve]

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The Murder of Rebecca Young - Ballarat

The Murder of Hannah McGuire - Ballarat * Lachie Young

17

Lachie Young

Age

25

Ht

189cm

Wt

81kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.5

3star

K

6.4

3star

HB

4.1

3star

M

3.3

3star

T

1.8

4star

MG

220.3

3star

D

9.0

2star

K

5.5

2star

HB

3.5

2star

M

1.0

1star

T

2.0

3star

MG

210.0

3star

D

11.2

3star

K

6.2

3star

HB

5.0

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

1.8

4star

MG

219.6

4star

charged



Allegedly

 

[reddog92]

In Victoria, 'hit and run', or more correctly 'leaving the scene of a vehicle accident' is a prescribed offence under S61 of the RSA. POS has not been charged with this, nor have the police alleged this. In fact, VicPol specifically stated they were NOT alleging a 'hit and run'. The fact is that POS has been charged with murder. Any discussion of 'hit and run' should probably cease until such a charge or allegation is made by police or prosecution.

I’m not saying I think it could have been, but many people I talk to still believe it could have been and he is not admitting to it, so police are charging him with murder in hopes of him admitting to it being an accident. I don’t think this is the case based on the fact he is sticking to his guns. But yes let’s move on from that theory!


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[31550]

I don’t know if that assumption is correct either.

In theory, he could have parked on the many dirt paths and walked into the forest and murdered her.

Personally I think the murder had nothing to do with his vehicle, other than being used to get him there and presumably to move the body.

I think the call out to look for a damaged vehicle, was because in the relevant timeframe his car was picked up on cctv somewhere.

I’m guessing his car was damaged before this incident, given his driving record.

I wasn't making, or even talking about assumptions. I was talking about what we know. We don't know anything about any vehicle being involved in SM's death. We don't know of any CCTV of POS or his vehicles. We don't know how POS entered the forest, or even that he did.

The police comment about 'damaged vehicles' was IMO not much more than a throwaway line in their appeal for people to come forward with details of possibly relevant or suspicious activity. They gave no details about a specific make model or colour of vehicle they were interested in. Again, it is reasonable to assume a vehicle was involved in removal of a body from the scene (how else could it be done?) but there is no reason to assume a vehicle was the cause of death. Police have said they are "not alleging a hit-and-run". They have not laid any charges on POS relating to a vehicle on this particular date.

 

[Underarrest_]

As an example of the ‘hit and run’ of the incident in Darwin, if POS did accidentally kill SM with a vehicle, could the charges be based under reckless indifference to human life?

Did he have his license suspended or have a work license only?
Was he seen driving erratically?

Mother and son buried Aboriginal woman after hitting her with car, court hears

The pair faced court on Friday after police located the body of the woman in bushland near Darwin on Wednesday.

www.sbs.com.au

“Mr Maley said it had been a tragic accident and there was no suggestion Joshua Mason had been driving erratically or legally responsible for the woman's death”

Not saying this is the case, as it could be many other suggested scenarios such as sexual assault and of course POS might be innocent. Will be an interesting trial (if it goes to trial) to follow.

 

[Awakening]

I wasn't making, or even talking about assumptions. I was talking about what we know. We don't know anything about any vehicle being involved in SM's death. We don't know of any CCTV of POS or his vehicles. We don't know how POS entered the forest, or even that he did.

The police comment about 'damaged vehicles' was IMO not much more than a throwaway line in their appeal for people to come forward with details of possibly relevant or suspicious activity. They gave no details about a specific make model or colour of vehicle they were interested in. Again, it is reasonable to assume a vehicle was involved in removal of a body from the scene (how else could it be done?) but there is no reason to assume a vehicle was the cause of death. Police have said they are "not alleging a hit-and-run". They have not laid any charges on POS relating to a vehicle on this particular date.

If you look at my post I quoted a post from Kurve, and that’s who I was responding to about assumptions, not you.

But fwiw, I don’t believe it was a hit and run. In my opinion he deliberately murdered her by his own hands or a weapon but the weapon is unlikely to be his car.

In terms of what we don’t know; we don’t know where he lived permanently or if he even had a permanent home, where he worked, but presumably he had a tradie job from the arrest details, whether he had a close relationship with his family or not.

We don’t know where he was the Saturday night before Samantha went missing, but plenty of rumours.

 

[Awakening]

Oh and how could I forget:

We don’t know if he was a bikie or had connections to bikie gangs.

 

[Underarrest_]

If you look at my post I quoted a post from Kurve, and that’s who I was responding to about assumptions, not you.

But fwiw, I don’t believe it was a hit and run. In my opinion he deliberately murdered her by his own hands or a weapon but the weapon is unlikely to be his car.

In terms of what we don’t know; we don’t know where he lived permanently or if he even had a permanent home, where he worked, but presumably he had a tradie job from the arrest details, whether he had a close relationship with his family or not.

We don’t know where he was the Saturday night before Samantha went missing, but plenty of rumours.

Could be part of the evidence. Found the murder weapon in POS possession with SM’s DNA on it.

 

[Awakening]

Could be part of the evidence. Found the murder weapon in POS possession with SM’s DNA on it.

True. I could be wrong, it’s happened once before, but I think police have a lot of evidence.

If they didn’t they wouldn’t charge him so quickly. And there’s very little information out in the public domain or appeals for assistance from the public.

I guess time will tell. Although the way the court system is here it could be two years before we know.

 

[Sqotty from office works]

Could be part of the evidence. Found the murder weapon in POS possession with SM’s DNA on it.

You can't find a murder weapon with blood or DNA on it without having a murder victim.

 

[31550]

Oh and how could I forget:

We don’t know if he was a bikie or had connections to bikie gangs.

Or if he is SM's biological son

 

[Underarrest_]

You can't find a murder weapon with blood or DNA on it without having a murder victim.

Can’t they get SM’s DNA from her personal belongings such as hair from her hairbrush or from other members of her family?
Sorry, is that what you mean?

 

[Sqotty from office works]

Can’t they get SM’s DNA from her personal belongings such as hair from her hairbrush or from other members of her family?
Sorry, is that what you mean?

No it's not what I mean.
They've charged him with murder.
So a weapon with her blood DNA is evidence but not exclusively proof of a murder.

They must have something to prove there has been a death.

 

[Underarrest_]

No it's not what I mean.
They've charged him with murder.
So a weapon with her blood DNA is evidence but not exclusively proof of a murder.

They must have something to prove there has been a death.

Yes might only be part of the evidence of course, as I said above.
Say they have surveillance of him confessing of example hitting her over the head with a hammer and then they’ve examined his hammer or they found a knife chucked in the bushes nearby with both DNA on it.

 

[thumbs_up]

Or if he is SM's biological son

We also cannot rule out alien bikies being involved.

 

[minivegscroll]

I’m pretty sure that Police did not state those facts in that fashion i.e. the POS attack on SM was "a deliberate act and not a hit and run".
They were two seperate statements - it was in response to a later question from a journalist as to whether it was a ‘hit and run’ that Patten said ‘No’. .. . although I guess those are their beliefs. It’s not a ‘hit and run’ because she was not left at the scene.

In legal terms, a ‘deliberate act’ is one that is intentional and premeditated, and when talking about taking an action to harm someone, which results in their death - that pretty much constitutes a charge of Murder - imo.

In this situation, Patton said the arrest came after a “painstaking and methodical investigation”.
“He has been charged with murder so, by definition, we are saying this was a deliberate attack on Samantha,” he said.

I think it quite possible she was hit by his vehicle. … . after that I’m stumped. It seems at some stage she has become deceased and he’s then disposed of her body ! Why he would do that is beyond me.

Two options are possible: intentional murder and reckless. Intentional murder is committing an act with the intention of killing or very seriously injuring someone. Reckless is committing an act without regard to the probability that someone will die as a result. We haven’t had any indication of which the prosecution is putting forward. Whether they mean in that quote the act itself was deliberate or whether her death was deliberate is essentially what we’re all speculating on I guess.

If he was reckless and then disposed of the body, I guess that makes sense. If he knew that what he was doing was stupid and was probably going to kill someone, I can imagine he’d recognise that makes him guilty of something, even if he doesn’t know exactly what

 

[minivegscroll]

So Mini, are you suggesting that although Police have charged POS with Murder, a Magistrate may turn around & say ‘Sorry, I don’t believe he did it so I’m not sending him to trial. He’s free to go’

That’s within the magistrates rights, so I just can’t discount the idea entirely

 

[minivegscroll]

Well they charged him with murder. Couldn't have been an accident in their opinion.

I don’t think it’s so much that it couldn’t have been an accident but they’re going to try to prove that it wasn’t. I imagine it’s difficult to do that especially if the vehicle is involved, but if they’re going to try to prove reckless murder as opposed to intentional they might be able to tick the boxes

Edit to add that the police are always going to start with the highest charge possible and work their way down if need be. POS could end up being found guilty of manslaughter instead

 

[minivegscroll]

Actually we don't know any of that. He may have walked or run into the forest. After all, she did. There's no evidence of POS entering the forest in a vehicle, or at all, that we know of.

But I agree it's almost certain vehicle was involved in shifting Samantha's body.

I think the vehicle could be of interest purely because it was likely his means of transport to and from the scene if he has in fact been involved in Samantha’s death. Just like his phone, his clothes, etc are all pieces of property that ought to be examined, same goes for his car

 

[minivegscroll]

I don’t know if that assumption is correct either.

In theory, he could have parked on the many dirt paths and walked into the forest and murdered her.

Personally I think the murder had nothing to do with his vehicle, other than being used to get him there and presumably to move the body.

I think the call out to look for a damaged vehicle, was because in the relevant timeframe his car was picked up on cctv somewhere.

I’m guessing his car was damaged before this incident, given his driving record.

If I remember rightly the comment about the damaged car was prior to his arrest. Perhaps at that time hit and run was on the cards or the use of the vehicle as a weapon, etc?

 

[minivegscroll]

No it's not what I mean.
They've charged him with murder.
So a weapon with her blood DNA is evidence but not exclusively proof of a murder.

They must have something to prove there has been a death.

Surely police will run with the presumption of death if they have an extended disappearance, especially if a weapon with DNA evidence was found? Like how search and rescues turn into recoveries after a set period?

 

[31550]

Surely police will run with the presumption of death if they have an extended disappearance, especially if a weapon with DNA evidence was found? Like how search and rescues turn into recoveries after a set period?

They need proof beyond reasonable doubt to convict, not mere presumption.

 

[GrayRanga]

If I remember rightly the comment about the damaged car was prior to his arrest. Perhaps at that time hit and run was on the cards or the use of the vehicle as a weapon, etc?

Why do you assume that the car was a weapon?

How about a security camera(s) picking up the only car entering the area about the time of her death, and the same car exiting the area some time later?

White tradie's ute with damage which would give credence for the Police mentioning the damage. Same damage on the entry and exit would indicate that the car hadn't hit or suffered any further damage

 

[shorsky]

They need proof beyond reasonable doubt to convict, not mere presumption.

I’m no expert with the workings of either the Apple Watch or an iPhone app ( have neither) however I think maybe Police are using the heart rate data from one, either or both that they / Mick was able to access from her cloud account ( Mick may have looked at this when he was searching for her initially )

My questions being:
if these devices were no longer on her being, what would that do to her heart rate ?
if she was attacked ( which usually results in a fall) would not that iPhone alert thing go off ?

 

[Spectrix]

however I think maybe Police are using the heart rate data from one, either or both that they / Mick was able to access from her cloud account

Although it wasn't confirmed, I've been under the impression they'd looked at heartrate/location data as they were quite specific about a particular time and place of the alleged murder.

My questions being:
if these devices were no longer on her being, what would that do to her heart rate ?
if she was attacked ( which usually results in a fall) would not that iPhone alert thing go off ?

If the watch is removed like when you have a shower, it shows a gap in the timeline of health metrics data rather than (for instance) a heart rate of zero.

Really interesting point about fall detection and perhaps someone with an Apple watch can confirm -

I was under the impression that following a detected fall, the device would give prominent audio and visual notifications asking to confirm if they're okay before initiating an emergency services SOS attachment and/or texting emergency contacts.
IE it requires a user input in order to cancel. In that case if a fall was detected it may have been the attacker who completed the user input.

Likewise I would think that if fall detection was triggered and cancelled, it would be logged in the cloud data and police would have access to that information.

 

[Percel]

Although it wasn't confirmed, I've been under the impression they'd looked at heartrate/location data as they were quite specific about a particular time and place of the alleged murder.


If the watch is removed like when you have a shower, it shows a gap in the timeline of health metrics data rather than (for instance) a heart rate of zero.

Really interesting point about fall detection and perhaps someone with an Apple watch can confirm -

I was under the impression that following a detected fall, the device would give prominent audio and visual notifications asking to confirm if they're okay before initiating an emergency services SOS attachment and/or texting emergency contacts.
IE it requires a user input in order to cancel. In that case if a fall was detected it may have been the attacker who completed the user input.

Likewise I would think that if fall detection was triggered and cancelled, it would be logged in the cloud data and police would have access to that information.

You are correct. Warning to the wearer to cancel if it’s a false fall, otherwise calls to emergency contact and 000 if it’s not dismissed.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

I still reckon she was jogging, he drove up behind her in a bad mood, whatever, blasted the horn, she gave him the finger, he jumped out and something - a push, a punch, some sort of assault - led to her death and him deciding to remove the body.