SEN/Robbo/Hun: Essendon players have received show cause notices

[Ron The Bear]

Essenson will argue that just because the gun closet was open, doesn't mean they took weapons and fired them.

Refer Wade Lees.

 

[Fletched]

Of course there WAS paperwork. If the show cause is backed by lots of documentary evidence pointing towards guilt, then the players would want the club to find any records or other evidence that show an innocent version of events is also possible, ideally probable. "Pinning" implies both innocence and a wish to prosecute based on evidence that is known to be shonky - only the most deluded observer could think it was relevant here.

so say you were listed for 1 injection but didn't actually receive it for some reason you would then be found guilty anyway?

 

[blue harvest]

So there is no way to prove innocence then

Of course there is, for example you could produce the records from the medical clinic which showed you took the good thymosin, along with the paper trail for the purchase of the good thymosin, and the dosage instructions for the good thymosin, and maybe a reason why you were taking the good thymosin when you don't have AIDS, and the club could explain why they had the bad thymosin and why the paid for it and had instructions for it.

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

Some players might see it in their best interest to go for the six months.

So cop a 6 month ban even though deep down the believe they weren't injected with a banned substance? that wouldn't sit well with me if i was a player.

 

[TedDougChris]

No player is going to admit guilt if they believe they are innocent which is what Asada wants.

The players believe they are innocent in the same way they trusted Hird and co. Incorrectly. If they don't have the paperwork to show what they took, it's very hard to disprove they didn't take something which has been shown to be purchased, supplied and they signed up to be injected with. On this basis, the likelihood is that they will be found guilty. So all it takes is someone looking for a lighter sentence and the whole group will go.

 

[Big Sim]

Holy shit, I just read Robbos call to arms in the Hun. Just when you thought the fool could not get any more foolish. Hard to see how he or anyone else for that matter can top that piece for unadulterated stupidity.

 

[Admiral Byng]

Spill the beans?

What exactly are you expecting a player to say?

On the public record it's clear not even Dank knew TB4 was banned...

In his position, he ought to have known, it was his job to know. The "ought to have known" principle has existed in law for ages.

Therefore the WADA code principle is: if in doubt, don't take it.

 

[The_Reaper]

So cop a 6 month ban even though deep down the believe they weren't injected with a banned substance? that wouldn't sit well with me if i was a player.

The players almost certainly believe/know what they were injected with.
If it was TB4 which all evidence suggests I think players will have no issue copping the smaller ban.

Hell, even Reimers would be enough

 

[bobsyouruncle]

But if there is no paperwork anything can be pinned on you?

Maybe you should ask why a professional sports club worth millions of dollars with full time doctors and sports scientists wouldn't keep paperwork of hundreds of injections to its players.

 

[The_Reaper]

so say you were listed for 1 injection but didn't actually receive it for some reason you would then be found guilty anyway?

The paperwork would back your claim of not getting injected.

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

The players believe they are innocent in the same way they trusted Hird and co. Incorrectly. If they don't have the paperwork to show what they took, it's very hard to disprove they didn't take something which has been shown to be purchased, supplied and they signed up to be injected with. On this basis, the likelihood is that they will be found guilty. So all it takes is someone looking for a lighter sentence and the whole group will go.

So the players should get punished because the club didn't keep proper records.

 

[TedDougChris]

So cop a 6 month ban even though deep down the believe they weren't injected with a banned substance? that wouldn't sit well with me if i was a player.

Can you prove that you weren't ? - No.
What are the consequences if you fight it - 2 years.
What is the deal on offer - 6 months.

Someone will take it....

 

[RW]

Martin Hardie will be speaking about this on the Today Show tomorrow morning. He has previously raised genuine concerns about the legality of the investigation on the grounds that procedural fairness was not followed, and taking the matter of guilt or innocence out of the equation for a moment, I think there is a real chance that Essendon could get out of this, but it won't happen soon.

 

[The_Reaper]

So the players should get punished because the club didn't keep proper records.

There is a **** load of evidence suggests that Essendon players were injected with TB4. There is nothing- not even any paperwork to suggest otherwise.

And it's pretty obvious that Essendon burnt/shredded the records.

 

[TedDougChris]

So the players should get punished because the club didn't keep proper records.

The players are being punished for the following reasons:
1. EFC purchased illegal substances as part of their supplements program
2. EFC were supplied these illegal substances.
3. EFC asked players to sign up to receive injections under their supplements program
4. The players signed, despite being told a number of times they are responsible for what enters their own bodies - not the club
5. Players were injected, offsite and without records being kept.

The balance of probabilities is - that they were injected with something they shouldn't have been. Is it their fault - partially, but not totally.

 

[blue harvest]

So cop a 6 month ban even though deep down the believe they weren't injected with a banned substance? that wouldn't sit well with me if i was a player.

How can they believe it wasn't banned if their official line is they don't know what it was?
Jobe has already admitted he believes he took a banned substance.

 

[KennyHunter9]

If EFC fight, they are rolling the dice.

I can imagine ASADA recommending 12-18 month bans - a reduction if EFC cooperate from here and plead ignorance / coercion. That would rule out 2014 and 2015 for the players.

However, if EFC fight, and lose, ASADA will be committed to 2 year bans. Assuming the EFC fight means that the bans take place from next year, that would rule out players for 2015 and 2016 (and in practical terms they will have destroyed their 2014).

So EFC need to decide potentially between being back on the park in 2016, or 2017. That's my guess about ASADA will attempt to achieve agreement.

 

[smiddaz123]

But you still have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that each and every player did consume the banned substances because you are innocent until proven guilty

It is literally the opposite of what you're saying. It's called strict liability, if you're found with prohibited substances in your system, you're guilty unless you can show otherwise.

Edit: I'm assuming it's been proven they've taken the drugs.

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

Can you prove that you weren't ? - No.
What are the consequences if you fight it - 2 years.
What is the deal on offer - 6 months.

Someone will take it....

6 months

Maybe the rest of this year and come round 1 2015 their bans will be finished.

 

[Jobe Watson]

Understand that. But didn't stop your club from having this upstanding bloke/convicted criminal associated with the supply of material that was then used on the playing group.

I know you are coming from the angle that 'please be consistent here' - from an AFL/ASADA perspective. But you also need to be consistent on the same thing that was used at your club. We just sacked a doctor once we found out he had links to Bikies. You employed such a guy as the supplier for your supplements program....

Firstly, he was never employed by Essendon.

Secondly, he had a previous relationship with Hird (that Dank exploited). Hird would've known him as a person. Charter has said that Hird refused all drugs when he worked with him as a player, and I doubt Charter ever offered banned drugs to Hird knowing his views on them. There would've been a trust between the two of them; Hird who had refused all banned substances as a player and Charter who has "turned his life around after banned drugs nearly ended it." I doubt Hird would've believed that Charter would be stupid enough to provide his players with banned substances. It is possible for him to keep his criminal activity/personal business and his relationships with sportspeople separate. He was, after all, a changed man.

I agree, we never should've had Charter, or Dank, or all those outside doctors associated with the club. But just because they're shady doesn't mean they necessarily did the wrong thing in this case.

No... ASADA presents their findings to the ADRVP who will then send out the show cause letters to the players.

No, the ADRVP do not send out show cause notices.

Since you can't even get the first part of the process right, I'll just skip over the rest of your post.

 

[Defacto]

what happens if two past players admit guilt? can they still go ahead and rub the team out?

 

[Fletched]

It is literally the opposite of what you're saying. It's called strict liability, if you're found with prohibited substances in your system, you're guilty unless you can show otherwise.

But the essendon players haven't been found with prohibited substances in their body

 

[TedDougChris]

6 months

Maybe the rest of this year and come round 1 2015 their bans will be finished.

Exactly - and for clubs with players that are looking towards a good 2015 rather than a good 2014, such as the Dogs - there may be interest.

 

[Blues_Man]

So the players should get punished because the club didn't keep proper records.

There's a reason why they didn't keep records ....only a fool wouldn't understand what that reason was.

 

[Fletched]

what happens if two past players admit guilt? can they still go ahead and rub the team out?

how would that rub the other 32 players out?