You're underselling him to label him a small forward.
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Small forward top 10
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Muddiemoose
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- #52
Won ports leading goal kicker a couple of times
Did go through the middle for a few seasons but spent a fair bit of time playing as a small forward
Korol Mira
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The best small forward I've seen is Cyril Rioli. Best ever defensive forward, one of the most skilled and athletic players I'd seen, and one of the few small forwards to show up in a Grand Final
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Nailed it.
Cyril was the greatest defensive forward we've ever seen. In an era when locking the ball inside fifty became the standard tactic for controlling the game and kicking a winning score, there was nobody better than Rioli at chasing down opponents and causing turnovers.
He was, without a doubt, the most unselfish, team-oriented player I've ever seen. He made every teammate around him better. Literally everything he did on the field was to set things up for teammates either out in the clear or closer to goal. Sometimes I wished he would be more selfish, put the blinkers on and kick 7 or 8 goals himself. But that just wasn't his go.
People who compare the goal totals of Betts, Milne and Rioli are barking up the wrong tree. Anyone who prefers them ahead of Cyril are barking mad.
James Hird kicked 343 goals
Anthony Rocca..... 415
Scott Lucas.......... 471
Daniel Bradshaw... 524
Would anyone rate those latter three forwards as better than Hirdy?
They kicked more goals than Hird. They were good players... but they weren't matchwinners.
Eddie and Milney were two of the greatest goalsneaks ever... They played closer to goal than anyone else in their team. They got on the end of a lot of the play. That's not to discredit them in any way. They were both great at what they did, but they played a different role to Rioli. They were virtual full forwards for the Crows and Saints (with Nick Riewoldt and Tex Walker dominating further up the ground at CHF.) Their job was kick goals... and they got plenty of opportunities to do so. Hell, if they didn't snag 3 or 4, they were probably a liability. Plenty of poor games when they didn't do much at all, but ended up with a couple of junk time goals.
Cyril played a different role, further from goal, across half forward. He didn't get a lot of the ball, but just about everything he did was decisive and game-breaking. He didn't lurk in space for the easy receives. He was more focused on winning the hard balls, or causing turnovers with chase-down tackles and stripping the ball away from hapless opponents... Or reading their intention to handball from 10m-15m away and closing in like a leopard hunting its prey and intercepting/smothering the handpass and then quickly feeding the ball out to Franklin, Roughead, Gunston, Breust and Puopolo
Every touch he got was like gold and resulted in a scoring opportunity.
Look at that list of names of Hawk forwards. It was probably the best forward line in history. It actually improved after Buddy went to Sydney prior to 2014 - it became even more efficient & high-functional. Even amongst those star forwards, Cyril was the danger man. He was always the most tightly-marked player in our side. Make no mistake, he was the guy whom the opposition coaches and defenders were the most worried about. They knew if he got hold of the ball 3 or 4 times in a quarter, then it was game over.
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Here is a bit more detail on the question of Cyril V Milne.
This first one is Rioli in about as much statistical detail as we can readily access.
The second one below is Milne.
What does Wheeloratings tell us about the pair?
Coaches votes: Cyril 280 votes in 189 games dating from 18yo. v Milne 113 votes in 178 matches from 26 years of age(no coaches votes prior to then.) Rioli averages 1.65 coaches votes per match across his whole career. Milne averages 0.69 coaches votes across the peak years of his career. This average would highly likely have dropped if taken over his whole career as he performed better after coaches votes were introduced than he did prior. The coaches votes tell us Milne got less votes than AFL average, and Rioli got way more votes than AFL average. Just to compare, Eddie Betts averaged 0.87 coaches votes per match. So that coaches have them 1. Rioli - by miles 2. Betts and 3. tailed off well behind Betts, Milne. For further comparison, Tom Papley averages 0.89 coaches votes per match. Charlie Cameron averages 1.09 coaches votes per match. Michael Walters averages 1.22. Kysaiah Pickett, who has only reached the age where Milne's career started averages 0.55 per match, probably about the maximum Milne would have averaged over his whole career if he played from 18yo like most of these guys. Shai Bolton averages 1.6 coaches votes per game, and has just entered his prime.
So Milne is absolutely nowhere compared to any of these guys in the eyes of the coaches.
I think one of the reasons is Milne was not a big contest winner. We only have offensive 1 v 1 contest percentages for 2 seasons for Milne, 2012-13. Forget his weaker final season 2013 and go to 2012. He won AA selection. Averaged 3.4 goals + goal assists which is very high. So on the face of it he has had a great year. His offensive 1 v 1 contest % was just 27%. Rioli went at 40% for all the years his stats are given. Betts 32%. Bolton is listed at 35%. Papley 29%. Cameron 26%. Walters 29%. Remember we are comparing career figures for all these guys with one of Milne's 2 AA years only. Milne likely averaged much lower than this over his career.
So in this group of modern small forwards, Rioli is the absolute cream for coaches votes and offensive 1 v 1 contest %. Milne is whipping them in, if you took him in the sweep you get your money back for last place.
This first one is Rioli in about as much statistical detail as we can readily access.
The second one below is Milne.
What does Wheeloratings tell us about the pair?
Coaches votes: Cyril 280 votes in 189 games dating from 18yo. v Milne 113 votes in 178 matches from 26 years of age(no coaches votes prior to then.) Rioli averages 1.65 coaches votes per match across his whole career. Milne averages 0.69 coaches votes across the peak years of his career. This average would highly likely have dropped if taken over his whole career as he performed better after coaches votes were introduced than he did prior. The coaches votes tell us Milne got less votes than AFL average, and Rioli got way more votes than AFL average. Just to compare, Eddie Betts averaged 0.87 coaches votes per match. So that coaches have them 1. Rioli - by miles 2. Betts and 3. tailed off well behind Betts, Milne. For further comparison, Tom Papley averages 0.89 coaches votes per match. Charlie Cameron averages 1.09 coaches votes per match. Michael Walters averages 1.22. Kysaiah Pickett, who has only reached the age where Milne's career started averages 0.55 per match, probably about the maximum Milne would have averaged over his whole career if he played from 18yo like most of these guys. Shai Bolton averages 1.6 coaches votes per game, and has just entered his prime.
So Milne is absolutely nowhere compared to any of these guys in the eyes of the coaches.
I think one of the reasons is Milne was not a big contest winner. We only have offensive 1 v 1 contest percentages for 2 seasons for Milne, 2012-13. Forget his weaker final season 2013 and go to 2012. He won AA selection. Averaged 3.4 goals + goal assists which is very high. So on the face of it he has had a great year. His offensive 1 v 1 contest % was just 27%. Rioli went at 40% for all the years his stats are given. Betts 32%. Bolton is listed at 35%. Papley 29%. Cameron 26%. Walters 29%. Remember we are comparing career figures for all these guys with one of Milne's 2 AA years only. Milne likely averaged much lower than this over his career.
So in this group of modern small forwards, Rioli is the absolute cream for coaches votes and offensive 1 v 1 contest %. Milne is whipping them in, if you took him in the sweep you get your money back for last place.
South of the Yarra
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- Jul 23, 2006
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Daicos went at 2.2 goals a game having played over half his career in the guts.
Between Milne and Betts. Maybe Milne.
Yes he probably owes a huge number of his goals to Riewoldt bringing it to ground, but thats the job. You can have a more defensive fwd like Rioli but you do need to put the goals on the board. His positioning and timing at Riewoldt's feet and around packs was superb.
Yes he probably owes a huge number of his goals to Riewoldt bringing it to ground, but thats the job. You can have a more defensive fwd like Rioli but you do need to put the goals on the board. His positioning and timing at Riewoldt's feet and around packs was superb.
South of the Yarra
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Milne kicked 7 or over 4 times. Rioli never kicked 7 or over. Daicos kicked 7 or more 10 times including bags of 13, 9, 8,8,8,7,7,7,7 and 7
If your going to stick Steve Johnson in there we may as well stick in Brereton as well as he was 3cm shorter.
Rather pointless comparing small forwards from previous eras to those of the last 15 or so years. Totally different roles given the need to be defensively accountable nowadays. Measuring just in goals is not an overly great metric to use for small forwards these days (though obviously still a significant weight to their KPI's).
As alluded to in a post above, Rioli was probably the most well rounded small forward of the last 20ish years. He could do it all. Take hangers, chase and tackle, get the hard ball, kick freaky goals, provide goal assist etc
He also shared the forward line not only with some great KPP's but two other very good small forwards in Bruest and Poppy for parts of his career. It was a well oiled machine where the goals were shared. I stand to be corrected but neither Milne nor Eddie had much competition in the mall forward role during their career.
Milne was a bit of a one trick pony, mind you he was very good at that trick, but didn't offer much else. Eddie was a somewhat similar to Milne but probably had a little more defensive nous to him and providing assists given the timing of his career.
Obviously I'm somewhat biased but the stats do suggest that Rioli was more well rounded than the others which I would think is more required in the modern game.
As alluded to in a post above, Rioli was probably the most well rounded small forward of the last 20ish years. He could do it all. Take hangers, chase and tackle, get the hard ball, kick freaky goals, provide goal assist etc
He also shared the forward line not only with some great KPP's but two other very good small forwards in Bruest and Poppy for parts of his career. It was a well oiled machine where the goals were shared. I stand to be corrected but neither Milne nor Eddie had much competition in the mall forward role during their career.
Milne was a bit of a one trick pony, mind you he was very good at that trick, but didn't offer much else. Eddie was a somewhat similar to Milne but probably had a little more defensive nous to him and providing assists given the timing of his career.
Obviously I'm somewhat biased but the stats do suggest that Rioli was more well rounded than the others which I would think is more required in the modern game.
Jhye Clark 13
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Most of those don't qualify because they weren't small forwards in the scheme of things.
1. Betts
2. Milne
3. Breust
4. Farmer
5. Le Cras
1. Betts
2. Milne
3. Breust
4. Farmer
5. Le Cras
Sttew
Brownlow Medallist
Gary Ablett Senior is 4cm shorter than Stevie J and 1cm taller than Luke Breust
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Wouldn't call him a small forward though.
Sttew
Brownlow Medallist
I agree but there is not much between small and medium forwards height wise.
For me Eddie Betts is No.1. A genuine small forward
“Rioli has it all over Milne as a small forward”.
Apart from total number of Goals, Goals per Game or Goals plus Goal Assists ?!.
Understand you wanting to defend your man here AB.
But those 3 factors you mention all stem from one single root. Milne kicked appreciably more goals per game than Cyril. He would want to have, he trails on every other measurable item. But for mine the Coaches votes tell you all you need to know. Milne averaged 0.69 per game in his peak years only, Rioli averaged 1.65 per game from the age of 18. There is no coming back from that for Milne v Cyril I am afraid.
ferrisb
Brownlow Medallist
Betts - PSD
Milne - Rookie Draft
Bruest - Rookie Draft
Charlie Cameron - Rookie Draft
Amazing to think that four of the best small forwards of the past 25 years were overlooked in their national drafts.
Milne - Rookie Draft
Bruest - Rookie Draft
Charlie Cameron - Rookie Draft
Amazing to think that four of the best small forwards of the past 25 years were overlooked in their national drafts.
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- Thread starter
- #70
That’s a great little stat.
- Thread starter
- #71
Robertson was drafted 68 re drafted on rookie list the year after as well.
- Sep 15, 2005
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where's Paul Chapman?
Little big man was defacto CHF for Geelong for a few years before Mooney stepped up, and then he settled into being the best front-n-square man in the business. Could straighten up for an easy shot on goal from virtually any situation; 3-4 quick steps and he was all squared-up for a snap or a drop punt.
Belongs in this company, I'd have him above Milne and it's an oddly unpopular opinion among Geelong supporters but I'd probably take peak Paul Chapman above Steve Johnson anyway (Johnson a very tall small forward, bit of a stretch).
Huge finals player too.
- Sep 15, 2005
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I've sung the praises of Peter Daicos many a time, he killed my side on many occasions and yet did it with such skill and panache that you just couldn't help but applaud the genius.
He almost transcends being ''just'' a small forward (and indeed he did play predominantly as a centreman earlier in his career before injuries began to mount).
You cannot overstate how could and innovative Peter Daicos was.
Stevie J was 6'2.5 (189 cm) not 6'4 (193 cm), just as an FYI.
Do agree probably still a bit big to make the list, but was never 6'4 - which is KPP size.
Johnson out, Chapman at 9 ahead of LeCras, and everyone else moving up one, would probably make more sense, IMO.
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- #75
Chapman was a midfielder in my mind. Or High half forward wing. Johnson was a better player as well. Chappy is a champion and had some amazing games! Would be in contention for best resting forward midfielder top 10.
