So... Hale or Bailey?

[MinerBoy]

Was that the last Q when we stacked on 6 goals to 2 before they snuck in the last couple. The ball was all ours most of the last Q. You sure you're not thinking about past seasons?

I didn't notice Scarlett at all. Not to say he did nothing - but he had little influence IMO.

 

[Dixie Flatline]

Was that the last Q when we stacked on 6 goals to 2 before they snuck in the last couple. The ball was all ours most of the last Q. You sure you're not thinking about past seasons?

I didn't notice Scarlett at all. Not to say he did nothing - but he had little influence IMO.

I was sitting in the AFL members on the ground level and noticed Scarlett running past to make options a few times in the last few minutes of the game. He wasn't doing that when Hodge was playing.

Back on topic, Mark Evans is quoted on the Hawthorn FC website as saying that Bailey will play this weekend, but cannily doesn't say for which team he will play. Still maintains that Bailey was withdrawn from the selected 22 due to illness, but from where I was watching the VFL on Saturday, he looked to be okay to me (though I didn't, I admit, speak to Big Max).

 

[MinerBoy]

I was sitting in the AFL members on the ground level and noticed Scarlett running past to make options a few times in the last few minutes of the game. He wasn't doing that when Hodge was playing.

Back on topic, Mark Evans is quoted on the Hawthorn FC website as saying that Bailey will play this weekend, but cannily doesn't say for which team he will play. Still maintains that Bailey was withdrawn from the selected 22 due to illness, but from where I was watching the VFL on Saturday, he looked to be okay to me (though I didn't, I admit, speak to Big Max).

When Hodge was playing the Cats has the lead. In the end, all Cats were streaming forward as it was they who needed to kick goals and leaving their men was now a risk worth taking.

But as you say, on topic, I still lean towards Hale.

 

[HawkMongrel]

If we're playing a team with a few big forwards, the solution should be as follows:

- Shoey moved away from KP forward that will monster him (Hawkins or Pods ffs)
- Rough moved on to KP forward and out of ruck for that game
- Bailey and Hale ruck/forward combo.
- End of discussion.

It's just the most logical setup and yet it's constantly ignored by Clarko. I know he wants Shoey to develop and all that but if it comes to that last game in September and he's sending Shoey down there out of blind faith to man up on a monster forward we're going to be royally screwed.

Shoey will get there, but he's not there yet. I love Clarko, and have always backed him, but he needs to be a touch more flexible.

 

[Dixie Flatline]

If we're playing a team with a few big forwards, the solution should be as follows:

- Shoey moved away from KP forward that will monster him (Hawkins or Pods ffs)
- Rough moved on to KP forward and out of ruck for that game
- Bailey and Hale ruck/forward combo.
- End of discussion.

It's just the most logical setup and yet it's constantly ignored by Clarko. I know he wants Shoey to develop and all that but if it comes to that last game in September and he's sending Shoey down there out of blind faith to man up on a monster forward we're going to be royally screwed.

Shoey will get there, but he's not there yet. I love Clarko, and have always backed him, but he needs to be a touch more flexible.

When was the last time you saw Roughead play as a key defender?

NB: dropping back to fill a space in front of a key forward is not the same as playing as a key defender.

This supporter obsession with Roughead playing as a key defender should have been resolved by now because IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN! yet people continue to ask the coaches to sacrifice possibly the most versatile player on any list in the AFL to play a role he hasn't played for six years (plus, he wasn't much good at it either, back then).

 

[Easy Slips Catch]

Watch the third Q. Mackey drifts forward, runs past Hale and kicks a goal. Hodge can be seen on the screen. make your own mind up.

Also in the third Scarlett ran off Hodge a few times whilst Hodge hung back. Really really poor work from a defensive forward.

I hope Hodge notes how he played and vows to do better, and then does better.

 

[go hawks!!!]

Watch the third Q. Mackey drifts forward, runs past Hale and kicks a goal. Hodge can be seen on the screen. make your own mind up.

Also in the third Scarlett ran off Hodge a few times whilst Hodge hung back. Really really poor work from a defensive forward.

I hope Hodge notes how he played and vows to do better, and then does better.

He had an 'off' game brother, he would be the first to see that, the other factor in the review was when harry tayloy 'mauled' him. Hodge is good for the run, he struggled, but at the ground you saw him 'organising' the forwards in a huddle after each goal.

We are better with Hodge than without hodge.

i.e. Hodge > Cheney/ Murphy

 

[halfback dasher]

Hodge was second game back , see that in a race guide and you steer clear ......
He will be fine with one more game uder his belt .

 

[Madhawknut]

Bail

 

[Glenferrie Oval]

He had an 'off' game brother, he would be the first to see that, the other factor in the review was when harry tayloy 'mauled' him. Hodge is good for the run, he struggled, but at the ground you saw him 'organising' the forwards in a huddle after each goal.

We are better with Hodge than without hodge.

i.e. Hodge > Cheney/ Murphy

We certainly are, but from minute 1 against the cats he had a limp and was useless. I know what you are all saying, he needs game time to get up to speed with the game but whether it was worth it, injury wise and the fact that Savage (sub) couldn't have done much worse. I hope he improving but if his injury is as bad as it was last week it's probably not worth him playing.
Most predicted a second week downer, and horse racing followers said this as well. How do horses go third run back from a long spell?

 

[Hungry Hawk]

I think Hodge may as well go on the Stewy Dew diet. Bulk up, whack an extra stripe down his jumper and just smash goals from in and around the 50. His midfield days are over, well at least for this year.

 

[Dr.J]

There was never going to be a simple answer to this one.

David Hale has performed beyond expectations this season as he’s carried our ruck.
Whilst he has shown himself to be very good overhead, against certain opposition, I’m not sure he has shown himself to be that way against the top contenders.
Put bluntly I’m still left with a question that his around the ground / forward work, will stand up in the heat of finals.
As this thread demonstrates that probably puts me at odds with the popular view of his value


So much of finals revolved around midfield clearance and stoppage work.
To this end IMHO Max has a significant advantage not just in height but ability to direct his tap work.
I’ve seen a few too many times this season where Hale has been beaten and the opposition have a ball feeding of a dominant ruckman. (see last weeks first Quarter)
Sadly, as good as Roughy is, he too isn’t capable of stopping a dominant ruckman.

One of the few doubt’s I have about our side is that the amount of damage the opposition can do from repetitive centre clearance.
The accompanying speed of delivery renders Shoey and our backline badly exposed (as it would any side)

So I guess what I’m saying is that I find the centre clearance / stoppage competitiveness more important to us than an occasional mark and goal up forward.
(I’m not sure that with Buddy back the forward line needs any more forward options).

So in summary I’m still not sure Hale’s around the ground value has been demonstrated in the “Big Games” to date
Highly fearful of an opposition getting a midfield run on.
Feel Max offers the best option to both nullify and gain the full advantage in ruck contests.

Having said all that the question on Max remains does he have the match fitness to run out a game and can the two of them co-exist in the one team.

I suppose these last couple of game will go someway to providing the answer.
(I'll just go back and sit on the fence folks - carry on)
.

 

[Brant]

There was never going to be a simple answer to this one.

David Hale has performed beyond expectations this season as he’s carried our ruck.
Whilst he has shown himself to be very good overhead, against certain opposition, I’m not sure he has shown himself to be that way against the top contenders.
Put bluntly I’m still left with a question that his around the ground / forward work, will stand up in the heat of finals.
As this thread demonstrates that probably puts me at odds with the popular view of his value


So much of finals revolved around midfield clearance and stoppage work.
To this end IMHO Max has a significant advantage not just in height but ability to direct his tap work.
I’ve seen a few too many times this season where Hale has been beaten and the opposition have a ball feeding of a dominant ruckman. (see last weeks first Quarter)
Sadly, as good as Roughy is, he too isn’t capable of stopping a dominant ruckman.

One of the few doubt’s I have about our side is that the amount of damage the opposition can do from repetitive centre clearance.
The accompanying speed of delivery renders Shoey and our backline badly exposed (as it would any side)

So I guess what I’m saying is that I find the centre clearance / stoppage competitiveness more important to us than an occasional mark and goal up forward.
(I’m not sure that with Buddy back the forward line needs any more forward options).

So in summary I’m still not sure Hale’s around the ground value has been demonstrated in the “Big Games” to date
Highly fearful of an opposition getting a midfield run on.
Feel Max offers the best option to both nullify and gain the full advantage in ruck contests.

Having said all that the question on Max remains does he have the match fitness to run out a game and can the two of them co-exist in the one team.

I suppose these last couple of game will go someway to providing the answer.
(I'll just go back and sit on the fence folks - carry on)
.

I think you make very good points in the above Doc.

I agree that Hale as a forward option is less valuable with the performance of Gunston & Breust, to a slightly lesser degree.

So, if the requirement to be a 'forward target when resting at FF' is removed from the equation (and really, he isn't a reliable target against good teams), then I lean strongly towards Max as our No.1 ruckman.

In saying that, I think we need to play both ruckmen against Sydney.

 

[sohsam]

There was never going to be a simple answer to this one.

David Hale has performed beyond expectations this season as he’s carried our ruck.
Whilst he has shown himself to be very good overhead, against certain opposition, I’m not sure he has shown himself to be that way against the top contenders.
Put bluntly I’m still left with a question that his around the ground / forward work, will stand up in the heat of finals.
As this thread demonstrates that probably puts me at odds with the popular view of his value


So much of finals revolved around midfield clearance and stoppage work.
To this end IMHO Max has a significant advantage not just in height but ability to direct his tap work.
I’ve seen a few too many times this season where Hale has been beaten and the opposition have a ball feeding of a dominant ruckman. (see last weeks first Quarter)
Sadly, as good as Roughy is, he too isn’t capable of stopping a dominant ruckman.

One of the few doubt’s I have about our side is that the amount of damage the opposition can do from repetitive centre clearance.
The accompanying speed of delivery renders Shoey and our backline badly exposed (as it would any side)

So I guess what I’m saying is that I find the centre clearance / stoppage competitiveness more important to us than an occasional mark and goal up forward.
(I’m not sure that with Buddy back the forward line needs any more forward options).

So in summary I’m still not sure Hale’s around the ground value has been demonstrated in the “Big Games” to date
Highly fearful of an opposition getting a midfield run on.
Feel Max offers the best option to both nullify and gain the full advantage in ruck contests.

Having said all that the question on Max remains does he have the match fitness to run out a game and can the two of them co-exist in the one team.

I suppose these last couple of game will go someway to providing the answer.
(I'll just go back and sit on the fence folks - carry on)
.

You have pretty much said what I have been saying, a fit and firing Bailey is vital to our chances. Hale does not even jump at centre bounces and we all know can be liabilty at times in the fwd line, once hits the ground, his second and third efforts are non existant. Roughy only played in ruck when we had no ruckman, but has been good in sense of another midfielder. Hale is not overly quick, does provide a good optin for kickouts, as can be seen against cats wer are not a good contested mark, it will be interesting next few weeks. If Max has the fitness, then you would think he is the numbner 1 ruckman, it is only his fitness which should be questioned. At 207 cm, he has ability to palm the ball down to our midfielders, or tap it to our ourtside runners and away from congestion and can nullify opposition ruckman from trying to do the same at centre bounces. As we saw last week, whoever won the centre cleranaces had good chance of scoring, so it is a critical area.

 

[Hawkzzz]

Bailey must do more around the ground. It was our mids that weren't switched on for the first quarter. They did superbly in the next three.

So if Bailey is to successfully come back from injury and replace Hale, he must show more in second efforts and take a few marks around the ground. The only way for Bails to get match hardened is to play him. But we can't carry him if he's getting 5 or 6 possessions during a game. He's missed so much of the season it is admittedly hard for him to step up.

He may rightly get that chance against Port and Gold Coast. This is his acid test.

 

[Easy Slips Catch]

Hodges disposals v the handbags are:
2011, Round 5 12 disposals, Round 12 15 disposals and first final 23 disposals
2010, Round 2 22 disposals, Round 15 20 disposals
2009, Round 1 20 disposals, Round 17 11 disposals

His 9 disposals are well below his normal output which is understandable. Those other stats are not outstanding. Clearly Hodge can play, but he needs to lift if we are to get over the Handbaggers.

 

[Brant]

Hodges disposals v the handbags are:
2011, Round 5 12 disposals, Round 12 15 disposals and first final 23 disposals
2010, Round 2 22 disposals, Round 15 20 disposals
2009, Round 1 20 disposals, Round 17 11 disposals

His 9 disposals are well below his normal output which is understandable. Those other stats are not outstanding. Clearly Hodge can play, but he needs to lift if we are to get over the Handbaggers.

Out of interest can anyone recall how many he got in the GF?
(I'm not suggesting 2008 is 'current form', just curious is all.)

 

[Dixie Flatline]

Out of interest can anyone recall how many he got in the GF?
(I'm not suggesting 2008 is 'current form', just curious is all.)

Having a feeling that it was in the mid-20s, but can't remember without looking it up.

Back to the topic at hand, looks like Clarko has (finally) laid down the gauntlet to both ruckmen this Sunday. I suspect we'll see Bailey first ruck, with Hale interchanging between full forward and ruck. At 3/4 time one of them will likely be subbed.

 

[christoff91]

It will be great so see how Bailey and Hale compare to each other this week!

 

[wallyt99]

Hodges disposals v the handbags are:
2011, Round 5 12 disposals, Round 12 15 disposals and first final 23 disposals
2010, Round 2 22 disposals, Round 15 20 disposals
2009, Round 1 20 disposals, Round 17 11 disposals

His 9 disposals are well below his normal output which is understandable. Those other stats are not outstanding. Clearly Hodge can play, but he needs to lift if we are to get over the Handbaggers.

 

[PenAndPaper]

 

[Henry Jr]

Clearly Cox and NicNat are shit. Geelong are killing the Eagles in the center square with their clearance work.

 

[grizzlym]

It will be great so see how Bailey and Hale compare to each other this week!

I'd prefer to see complement each other.

 

[Glebehawk]

There was never going to be a simple answer to this one.

David Hale has performed beyond expectations this season as he’s carried our ruck.
Whilst he has shown himself to be very good overhead, against certain opposition, I’m not sure he has shown himself to be that way against the top contenders.
Put bluntly I’m still left with a question that his around the ground / forward work, will stand up in the heat of finals.
As this thread demonstrates that probably puts me at odds with the popular view of his value


So much of finals revolved around midfield clearance and stoppage work.
To this end IMHO Max has a significant advantage not just in height but ability to direct his tap work.
I’ve seen a few too many times this season where Hale has been beaten and the opposition have a ball feeding of a dominant ruckman. (see last weeks first Quarter)
Sadly, as good as Roughy is, he too isn’t capable of stopping a dominant ruckman.

One of the few doubt’s I have about our side is that the amount of damage the opposition can do from repetitive centre clearance.
The accompanying speed of delivery renders Shoey and our backline badly exposed (as it would any side)

So I guess what I’m saying is that I find the centre clearance / stoppage competitiveness more important to us than an occasional mark and goal up forward.
(I’m not sure that with Buddy back the forward line needs any more forward options).

So in summary I’m still not sure Hale’s around the ground value has been demonstrated in the “Big Games” to date
Highly fearful of an opposition getting a midfield run on.
Feel Max offers the best option to both nullify and gain the full advantage in ruck contests.

Having said all that the question on Max remains does he have the match fitness to run out a game and can the two of them co-exist in the one team.

I suppose these last couple of game will go someway to providing the answer.
(I'll just go back and sit on the fence folks - carry on)
.

I love this post, agree with every word.

 

[christoff91]

I'd prefer to see complement each other.

very true! it would be great if they could work well together. I just hope we dont lose speed/mobility as a result.