Coach So you want Voss gone? Who will replace him and why would they want to coach Carlton?

[jpfalvo]

I don't get this rhetoric, have we not improved each year since 2018?

Rhetoric relates to hawthorn improving to a flag.

This discussion began comparing us to hawthorn way back then.

Obviously we are not comparable to that period.

Given 0 flags

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[jpfalvo]

arrow

We have improved from Bolton to Teague, to Voss in terms of wins.

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[Arr0w]

Rhetoric relates to hawthorn improving to a flag.

This discussion began comparing us to hawthorn way back then.

Obviously we are not comparable to that period.

Given 0 flags

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Hawks have been a well run club, set up again once the likes of Dunstall step back in the door, but it still wasn't linear

We have taken our sweet time, but we have improved every year since 2018 (slightly down this year on last)

Over that time, many also said tge likes of *, Saints, Suns, Dockers had gone past us in the rebuild stakes. I guess that seems to happen from year to year

Ultimately, you still get judged on flags

 

[katmanblue]

So, it wasn't Russell's fault, it's was Voss's fault

Or assistants, maybe Power, perhaps Lloyd, perhaps Cook, surely Sayers

What's interesting, 100% it's not one single player, perhaps, maybe

Not directed at you, just the contradicting information that's going around at the moment

So maybe Russell said, "**** this, I'm out". Rather than the club sending him packing.

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[Gethelred]

This thread title made sense for Bolton because he left the club when we were in crazy dire straights. North Melbourne have a comparable but superior win-loss percentage over the last three seasons to us between 2015-2018 when we replaced Bolton; there was an awful lot of turnover and development still to do to get this list into today's viccitudes. It does not make sense that no-one would want to coach us right now, because there's plenty of reasons why a prospective AFL coach would want to come to Carlton. We have one of the best players in it in Cripps; we have three of the last 4 Coleman medalists; we have a spine worthy of just about any club imaginable (Curnow, McKay, Cripps, Weitering) missing only a second KPD; we have a fleet of second tier mids and wings that are arguably underrated to pretty ****ing groovy when fit.

So dunno who should replace him. Not even going there. Just, there's significantly more reason to believe success is coming now in 2024 than there was halfway through 2018 or even 2020.

 

[The Flying Doormat]

I don't get this rhetoric, have we not improved each year since 2018?

9 years after the infamous 66 game rebuild was initiated, we limp into a final and crashed out in a screaming heap.
In terms of outcomes, the improvement is barely discernible.

 

[Arr0w]

9 years after the infamous 66 game rebuild was initiated, we limp into a final and crashed out in a screaming heap.
In terms of outcomes, the improvement is barely discernible.

Plenty of sides have made finals, dropped out ( or come off a bit) and come again

We'll make finals again next year

As for the infamous 66 game statement, bit like " I can't see us losing a game"

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

So, it wasn't Russell's fault, it's was Voss's fault

Or assistants, maybe Power, perhaps Lloyd, perhaps Cook, surely Sayers

What's interesting, 100% it's not one single player, perhaps, maybe

Not directed at you, just the contradicting information that's going around at the moment

None of that is contradictory

 

[Arr0w]

None of that is contradictory

Plenty of contradictions filtering through

 

[JustOneTime]

Maybe we can turn this discussion another way.

Given the list quality and age profile at vossy, Russell, and the coaching staff's disposal; just what are the things that you go wow, or great, thank god we have Voss, Russell and the rest of the MC to guide our list?

It's worth shouting out why we are proud of Vossy being our coach.

 

[Soapy V]

9 years after the infamous 66 game rebuild was initiated, we limp into a final and crashed out in a screaming heap.
In terms of outcomes, the improvement is barely discernible.

Yep. Sadly, this year we have gone backwards and quite dramatically since June

 

[Soapy V]

A few tidbits about Voss, fairly in line with what Soapy V has been saying.

Source is ok, bit of 3rd hand but thought worth sharing.

Apparently refused to listen to Russell, just absolutely flogged the players.

Doesn’t listen to Assistants either.

Was agreed at the start of the year he would stop micro managing but after 2 rounds took over again.

Extremely strong personality so is hard for Lloyd and others to manage him.

I remember very clearly when Voss took over. He was disgusted with fitness levels of players, poor defensively, lazy, and need to be tougher. I remember it because Teague let many players get away with anything, played many unfit players and I thought it was what we needed.

He has brought better standards to the club

The pre season and those since have been brutal and Voss has been all over it. He pushes and pushes them. Many to breaking point. By Mid year many on the list were sore and struggled to get up each week

The strong talk is as injuries have become worse he has listened less and less to Russell and the relationship is 'frosty". Someone had to go and it was never going to be Voss

I have said it before, Voss is respected but he is very tough, strong willed and stoic. Old school type. It wears many players down and many players are frustrated as they are doing what Voss wants in game but get blamed for when it doesn't work

There is a definite undercurrent of "frustration" in the playing group at the moment especially amongst the senior players. Way too many people are saying it

IMO, just my opinion, he needs to find a better balance between driving standards and getting the best out of the players. Being a Senior coach is hard. Not many can do it well. I like Voss, he's old school like me. BUT, these days you need to more balanced and need to listen to different views and be very adapatable. Coaching at AFL level is more about the group

I have no doubt that many conversations will be happening between Voss, Cook, Sayers, Lloyd and senior players about getting better as individuals and as a team. Voss already has a "mentor"

I still believe, if fit and playing a modern game style, we have a Top 4 list. Will be even better next year. We just need to get a few things right

 

[NewDarkNavyBlues]

My intel last year was around Voss and his micro managing. Apparently after the disastrous first half of 2023, Voss was told to step back and allow the assistant coaches and leadership group to be the driver of key decisions. Look at the results.

All of this corresponds to Voss being stubborn, pigheaded and old school.

We butchered the coach hiring process with Kingsley the clear superior candidate. But we have time to clean this up. My favourite quote in the stock market is “you can be wrong, but don’t stay wrong for long.”

My fear is that we lack bold, innovative leaders in our key positions above Voss. Cannot picture Brad Lloyd making moves to drastically change this situation.

 

[CarmenSandiego]

Someone mentioned on here that Cook delayed exit meetings a couple of days because he was furious and 'he had a few things to sort out'.

Wonder if Cook gave Voss free reign to do it 'his way' and let the results speak for themselves. Now that it was a total failure, he has all the evidence he needs to tell Voss to change his ways. Might've copped a brutal review this week.

At least that's what I'm hoping anyway.

 

[Foucault1989]

I'm happy to stick it out with Vossy. I don't think he's that bad of a coach.

 

[Revenant1965]

I remember very clearly when Voss took over. He was disgusted with fitness levels of players, poor defensively, lazy, and need to be tougher. I remember it because Teague let many players get away with anything, played many unfit players and I thought it was what we needed.

He has brought better standards to the club

The pre season and those since have been brutal and Voss has been all over it. He pushes and pushes them. Many to breaking point. By Mid year many on the list were sore and struggled to get up each week

The strong talk is as injuries have become worse he has listened less and less to Russell and the relationship is 'frosty". Someone had to go and it was never going to be Voss

I have said it before, Voss is respected but he is very tough, strong willed and stoic. Old school type. It wears many players down and many players are frustrated as they are doing what Voss wants in game but get blamed for when it doesn't work

There is a definite undercurrent of "frustration" in the playing group at the moment especially amongst the senior players. Way too many people are saying it

IMO, just my opinion, he needs to find a better balance between driving standards and getting the best out of the players. Being a Senior coach is hard. Not many can do it well. I like Voss, he's old school like me. BUT, these days you need to more balanced and need to listen to different views and be very adapatable. Coaching at AFL level is more about the group

I have no doubt that many conversations will be happening between Voss, Cook, Sayers, Lloyd and senior players about getting better as individuals and as a team. Voss already has a "mentor"

I still believe, if fit and playing a modern game style, we have a Top 4 list. Will be even better next year. We just need to get a few things right

You mentioned 'mentor'. Are you able to share who that is? I'd just be interested to know what their background is...

 

[Soapy V]

You mentioned 'mentor'. Are you able to share who that is? I'd just be interested to know what their background is...

I don’t know. Just told he has one he meets with regularly

 

[Robbo's my hero]

You mentioned 'mentor'. Are you able to share who that is? I'd just be interested to know what their background is...

I can’t remember who stated it or where I read it but Cameron Schwab was mentioned as the ‘mentor’. I can’t say that’s a definitive answer.

 

[Robbo's my hero]

I'm happy to stick it out with Vossy. I don't think he's that bad of a coach

 

[DangerousD]

It wasn’t linear, it was hockey stick. They pinched one early, when Geelong choked.

How linear were the Hawks in 2009 and 2010?

Hockey stick?

I know Geelong were the better side but the Hawks finished the season 2nd and then won the GF, lots of teams finish top and don’t win the GF.

 

[DangerousD]

I don't get this rhetoric, have we not improved each year since 2018?

No we haven’t

 

[Arr0w]

No we haven’t

Actually we have, it's been an upward trend from 2018

 

[DangerousD]

Voss has been in charge for three full seasons now.

2022. was looking good but form and wins abandoned us and we were knocked out of the 8 on the last day of the last round, after being in the top 8 every week

2023. Was a slow start and things were bleak, form and wins were hard to come by until we went on a fantastic run, playing great footy, resulting in two finals wins and a narrow preliminary loss.

2024. Was solid, ticking off wins despite not playing great footy, although winning we were letting in bigger scores compared to last season, two thirds in, just like the season before and the one before that, form and wins abandoned us in the lead up to finals, limping in and getting flogged in the elimination.

Voss was hired to take over a side that the board thought was ready to challenge and has been a huge upgrade on Teague, this doesn’t mean much because we had massively underachieved with Teague, Voss record is passable but has barely improved year on year. He is under huge pressure next year which concerns me greatly, as he has been known to micromanage and play players in to the ground instead of trusting younger players and spreading the load.

For where our list is at and what Voss has at his disposal I think he has been poor except for 2023, I just hope Cook and whoever is above him have identified areas of improvement and are finding ways to implement it.

A few improvements to game style and player management is needed and would make a huge difference, I still feel if we have a good team around Voss we can do well.

 

[Soapy V]

Voss has been in charge for three full seasons now.

2022. was looking good but form and wins abandoned us and we were knocked out of the 8 on the last day of the last round, after being in the top 8 every week

2023. Was a slow start and things were bleak, form and wins were hard to come by until we went on a fantastic run, playing great footy, resulting in two finals wins and a narrow preliminary loss.

2024. Was solid, ticking off wins despite not playing great footy, although winning we were letting in bigger scores compared to last season, two thirds in, just like the season before and the one before that, form and wins abandoned us in the lead up to finals, limping in and getting flogged in the elimination.

Voss was hired to take over a side that the board thought was ready to challenge and has been a huge upgrade on Teague, this doesn’t mean much because we had massively underachieved with Teague, Voss record is passable but has barely improved year on year. He is under huge pressure next year which concerns me greatly, as he has been known to micromanage and play players in to the ground instead of trusting younger players and spreading the load.

For where our list is at and what Voss has at his disposal I think he has been poor except for 2023, I just hope Cook and whoever is above him have identified areas of improvement and are finding ways to implement it.

A few improvements to game style and player management is needed and would make a huge difference, I still feel if we have a good team around Voss we can do well.

Very good summation

 

[DangerousD]

Actually we have, it's been an upward trend from 2018

Actually we haven’t.

if we have less points from more matches in 2024 (52) than we had in 2023 (54) that is not upward, that’s going backwards, both in terms of points for the season and points per match.

Also two finals wins in 2023 to zero in 2024.

Our scoring has has improved year on year, our defence has not.