Coach So you want Voss gone? Who will replace him and why would they want to coach Carlton?

[Arr0w]

Actually we haven’t.

if we have less points from more matches in 2024 (52) than we had in 2023 (54) that is not upward, that’s going backwards, both in terms of points for the season and points per match.

Also two finals wins in 2023 to zero in 2024.

Our scoring has has improved year on year, our defence has not.

I've already mentioned this previously, but we have been on an upward trend since 2018

Sure, we had a poor 2nd half of the year, but I'd expect us to make finals again next year

What that looks like, it's still way to early to determine

 

[DangerousD]

I've already mentioned this previously, but we have been on an upward trend since 2018

Sure, we had a poor 2nd half of the year, but I'd expect us to make finals again next year

What that looks like, it's still way to early to determine

The biggest concern to me, more than wins and losses, is how many points we concede and what we are conceding in relation to the team who wins the premiership.

In 2023 we had the 4th best defence in terms of points against and we went within 15 points of a GF.

In 2024 wer had the 14th best defence in terms of points against and we limp in to the finals and get smashed.

It’s very simplistic is a pretty big step back on the previous season, its something i struggle to work out as well and in my simple assessment, Voss has gone looking for a greater scoring output which he achieved but it has come at the cost of conceding more.

If Voss and the coaches were good enough to have a top 4 defence in 2023, then they are capable again in 2025.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Point was, with the talent we brought in, coupled with natural progression, we were always going to see an upward trend from 2018...

Do you know how many "Teague's gifts" we handed out this year? It was more than we ever did when Teague himself was our coach...

Plus, as an added bonus, there were a further 4 games where we conceded 5/6 goals... of those 4, 2 were against the Tigers and 1 was against North...

 

[jj1978]

I'm happy to stick it out with Vossy. I don't think he's that bad of a coach.

I can get by on a bit of flank stank, but a filet mignon, same animal but way different quality.

 

[CCurnow3votes]

Kingsley according to the Prendercast was told No, because not marketable and chasing a coach not "on training wheels" using Judds words...and we hired Voss

They did offer him the senior assistant gig which he declined.

Adam Simpson is one coach who we should get in, even for short term to assist Voss. But its unlikely

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Nothing against our current Head of Football, I’m sure he’s a nice bloke!

I’d like to see a wise ex-coach head up our footy dept. someone who’s been there & done that, who can guide Vossy.

It’s often hard to see the forrest for the trees.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Actually we haven’t.

if we have less points from more matches in 2024 (52) than we had in 2023 (54) that is not upward, that’s going backwards, both in terms of points for the season and points per match.

Also two finals wins in 2023 to zero in 2024.

Our scoring has has improved year on year, our defence has not.

Also, 2021 we had 8 wins, 1 more win than 2020... but we played 5 more games. I wouldn't call that an upward trend... especially when we only won 7 in 2019 too... it's pretty much the same.

Our upward trend really started in 2022... but given this season was almost a carbon copy of that... it is hard to draw positives.

We have a massive off season coming up and Voss will be coaching for his career next year.

 

[jj1978]

Voss has been in charge for three full seasons now.

2022. was looking good but form and wins abandoned us and we were knocked out of the 8 on the last day of the last round, after being in the top 8 every week

2023. Was a slow start and things were bleak, form and wins were hard to come by until we went on a fantastic run, playing great footy, resulting in two finals wins and a narrow preliminary loss.

2024. Was solid, ticking off wins despite not playing great footy, although winning we were letting in bigger scores compared to last season, two thirds in, just like the season before and the one before that, form and wins abandoned us in the lead up to finals, limping in and getting flogged in the elimination.

Voss was hired to take over a side that the board thought was ready to challenge and has been a huge upgrade on Teague, this doesn’t mean much because we had massively underachieved with Teague, Voss record is passable but has barely improved year on year. He is under huge pressure next year which concerns me greatly, as he has been known to micromanage and play players in to the ground instead of trusting younger players and spreading the load.

For where our list is at and what Voss has at his disposal I think he has been poor except for 2023, I just hope Cook and whoever is above him have identified areas of improvement and are finding ways to implement it.

A few improvements to game style and player management is needed and would make a huge difference, I still feel if we have a good team around Voss we can do well.

Yep.

2022 finals were expected. If I recall he got a pass by Cook and Sayers due to some injuries here and there even though our inconsistency still hadn't been resolved. I think we only played 1, 4 quarter game that year.

2023 finals were expected. Wasn't looking that way round 13 but somehow we brute forced it with a lot of luck (how many single point heart stopping wins, Port sending in their B-side, etc) and again injuries impacted what could've been. Again a year of inconsistencies and maybe 2, 4 quarter games.

2024 not sure how we started so well, luck, you could see we were scraping through on wins whilst teams were slowly wading into the season. No 4 quarter efforts even in those early rounds or throughout the year. Still not able to get really really big wins consistently when we did win. Were able to curtail our losing margins (bar Sydney and Hawks). And again injuries.

Cook and Sayers have failed us somewhat. Injuries have been a big factor for us for 5-6 seasons, none of that was addressed until finally we hear early this year from Cook "it's a combination of physiology and S&C". Thus implies our S&C not working and list management being too nice in retaining too many injury prone. Lack of consistent 4 quarter efforts and average skills relying on herculean efforts from a handful to get us a win.. indicates skills coaching, recruitment and overall coaching is failing the players we have or we must move players on who can't improve if they require to do so (or devise a gameplan that suits the list).

Coaches have gotten the players to buy in so we believe, I feel that's a little bit of a sell.. good PR men are our Sayers and Cook.

I'll keep repeating 2025 is big for everybody. Because another inconsistent season, new administration will make some changes.

At least finally addressed S&C and list management figured out what a lot of us figured out should've been done 1-2 years ago.

 

[jj1978]

Nothing against our current Head of Football, I’m sure he’s a nice bloke!

I’d like to see a wise ex-coach head up our footy dept. someone who’s been there & done that, who can guide Vossy.

It’s often hard to see the forrest for the trees.

Not many ex-coaches whom aren't already poached or have been in the game in the most recent years;

• Buckley... will be a coach in his next role you'd think or stay in media.
• Simpson... would be a great get but possibly could be a head coach again... another bad year by Clarko, Dogs and Crows are getting resltess..
• Dew... not HOF material
• Shaw - hahahahah
• Noble - possible as he's done that role before quite well at Brisbane, now at Dick Jones Racing may not want to return to AFL again?

We have some other ex-coaches but they may be a bit beyond the role... Worsfold, Bomber Thompson, Eade.

Eade would be good, but he's 66 and hasn't been in the game for a few years and now does player management.

 

[blue healer]

Actually we have, it's been an upward trend from 2018

Cmon Arrow that's a tad mischievous.

Yes we've been on an upward trend since 2018 although the first half of '23 and the second half of '24 kinda buck that trend somewhat, and worth noting your upward trend is under 3 different coaches.

Truth is we had every right to, not only hope for but, expect improvement given we started a ground up rebuild with a plethora of early draft picks in 2015. Then we add McGovern, Newman, Pittonet, Williams, Martin, Fogarty, Saad, Boyd, Hewitt, Cerra, Acres, Fantasia, E Hollands all in that period and most, if not all, in our best 25.

So yeah I agree we have been on an upward trend from 2018 but it would have be a bloody sad state of affairs if we weren't.

 

[Arr0w]

Cmon Arrow that's a tad mischievous.

Yes we've been on an upward trend since 2018 although the first half of '23 and the second half of '24 kinda buck that trend somewhat, and worth noting your upward trend is under 3 different coaches.

Truth is we had every right to, not only hope for but, expect improvement given we started a ground up rebuild with a plethora of early draft picks in 2015. Then we add McGovern, Newman, Pittonet, Williams, Martin, Fogarty, Saad, Boyd, Hewitt, Cerra, Acres, Fantasia, E Hollands all in that period and most, if not all, in our best 25.

So yeah I agree we have been on an upward trend from 2018 but it would have be a bloody sad state of affairs if we weren't.

People can debate a phase or period from 2018, much of which actually wasn't under Voss's tenure, but my post was merely what has transpired over that period

 

[blue healer]

Someone mentioned on here that Cook delayed exit meetings a couple of days because he was furious and 'he had a few things to sort out'.

Wonder if Cook gave Voss free reign to do it 'his way' and let the results speak for themselves. Now that it was a total failure, he has all the evidence he needs to tell Voss to change his ways. Might've copped a brutal review this week.

At least that's what I'm hoping anyway.

Voss turns 50 next year and has been coaching for the last 16 years, I'd say his traits are well established by now.

If half of what Soapy and NewDarkNavyBlue say is true then if Cook can turn him around in the space of an off season then I'd say his middle name must be Rumpelstiltskin.

 

[blue healer]

People can debate a phase or period from 2018, much of which actually wasn't under Voss's tenure, but my post was merely what has transpired over that period

So, do you believe that upward trend is acceptable given the list we've put together over the last nine years?

I'll be up front and say I don't think it is. I was super confident that we would be top four this year and by any measure the year was a write off in my view. I guess you'd say we still have weaknesses in our list but what club hasn't?

 

[Arr0w]

So, do you believe that upward trend is acceptable given the list we've put together over the last nine years?

I'll be up front and say I don't think it is. I was super confident that we would be top four this year and by any measure the year was a write off in my view. I guess you'd say we still have weaknesses in our list but what club hasn't?

I had us in the 13-16 win range, I thought we underperformed, and yes, we need to improve in a number of areas

 

[Blue_Fusion]

So, do you believe that upward trend is acceptable given the list we've put together over the last nine years?

I'll be up front and say I don't think it is. I was super confident that we would be top four this year and by any measure the year was a write off in my view. I guess you'd say we still have weaknesses in our list but what club hasn't?

I like to think of it this way...

We had about 3 years under Bolton (2016- half way of 2019) and we were worse by the end of his tenure than we were at the start... 7W, 6W, 2W, 1W when he was sacked.

Then we had Teague for about 3 years... (half of 2019 - 2021) we saw a bit of improvement from when Bolton was coach but by the end of 2021 we weren't much better than we were by the end of 2019... 6W, 7W, 8W

Now so far, we've had Voss for 3 years (2022-2024) we saw a bit of improvement from when Teague was coach. But by 2024 we can't say we're much better than 2022... 12W, 13W+1D, 13W

So really the upward trend has coincided with when we've changed coaches...

But once they've taken the helm, after approx 3 years, there hasn't been much improvement compared to when they started...

Next year is huge for this football club...

 

[JustOneTime]

Actually we have, it's been an upward trend from 2018

The upward trend could also be explained by the maturing/aging of our key drafts picks.

 

[jpfalvo]

Point was, with the talent we brought in, coupled with natural progression, we were always going to see an upward trend from 2018...

Do you know how many "Teague's gifts" we handed out this year? It was more than we ever did when Teague himself was our coach...

Plus, as an added bonus, there were a further 4 games where we conceded 5/6 goals... of those 4, 2 were against the Tigers and 1 was against North...

That is very interesting

Whats the count Teague v Voss

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[Blue_Fusion]

That is very interesting

Whats the count Teague v Voss

Teague 2021:

5/6 goal runs = 5:
Port
*
Demons
Swans
Pies

"Teague's gift" = 7
Lions
Dogs
Giants
Cats
North
Port
Giants

------

Voss 2024:

5/6 goal runs = 4:
Demons
Tigers x 2
North

"Teague's gift" = 9:
Lions x2 (including ef)
Giants x2
Cats
Pies
Swans
Port
Hawks

 

[JustaBattler]

I like to think of it this way...

We had about 3 years under Bolton (2016- half way of 2019) and we were worse by the end of his tenure than we were at the start... 7W, 6W, 2W, 1W when he was sacked.

Then we had Teague for about 3 years... (half of 2019 - 2021) we saw a bit of improvement from when Bolton was coach but by the end of 2021 we weren't much better than we were by the end of 2019... 6W, 7W, 8W

Now so far, we've had Voss for 3 years (2022-2024) we saw a bit of improvement from when Teague was coach. But by 2024 we can't say we're much better than 2022... 12W, 13W+1D, 13W

So really the upward trend has coincided with when we've changed coaches...

But once they've taken the helm, after approx 3 years, there hasn't been much improvement compared to when they started...

Next year is huge for this football club...

12/6; 13.5/7; 13/8...

That is more than marginal improvement for people that arithmetic.

12-> 13.5-> 13 is a reach if people want to describe that as "going backwards"

but hey not everyone can arithmetic I get that.

then you can factor in what the context of the numbers take off 'expected improvement' and add back mitigating circumstances like the 2nd worst injury record in the AFL for 2024...

gain only for people who arithmetic.

there is only one 'constant' in 'discussions' like this - and that is the sack <insert coach who happens to be at Carlton> if whoever's expectations aren't met.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

12/6; 13.5/7; 13/8...

That is more than marginal improvement for people that arithmetic.

12-> 13.5-> 13 is a reach if people want to describe that as "going backwards"

but hey not everyone can arithmetic I get that.

then you can factor in what the context of the numbers take off 'expected improvement' and add back mitigating circumstances like the 2nd worst injury record in the AFL for 2024...

gain only for people who arithmetic.

there is only one 'constant' in 'discussions' like this - and that is the sack <insert coach who happens to be at Carlton> if whoever's expectations aren't met.

Yeah mate... not once did I say we haven't improved since Bolton or Teague... don't know why you've compared Voss' W/L with Teague's that's ridiculous given where our list was at during those corresponding approx 3 year tenures...

You can arithmetic... you also need to logic.

but hey not everyone can logic I get that.

The point is, under each coach we saw an immediate upward trend... then it stagnated across approx 3 years... and no, I didn't say we're "going backwards"... not anywhere

Like it or not, Voss will eventually be sacked... no use clinging onto a fairy tale of him riding off into the sunset as a 3 time premiership coach at Carlton as much as we all wish that to happen...

 

[JustOneTime]

12/6; 13.5/7; 13/8...

That is more than marginal improvement for people that arithmetic.

12-> 13.5-> 13 is a reach if people want to describe that as "going backwards"

but hey not everyone can arithmetic I get that.

then you can factor in what the context of the numbers take off 'expected improvement' and add back mitigating circumstances like the 2nd worst injury record in the AFL for 2024...

gain only for people who arithmetic.

there is only one 'constant' in 'discussions' like this - and that is the sack <insert coach who happens to be at Carlton> if whoever's expectations aren't met.

What do you like about Voss? I dont want him sacked, i want him to improve but when i think about what i like about him I dont come up with much except hardness and staying the course where the latter could be good or bad.

I'd choose him over Fagan, Beverage and Hinkley of the top 8 coaches.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

If you think Voss is the type of person to say "righto I'm done" after winning 3 flags you don't know him very well...

He will keep coaching until he is sacked... like the vast majority of them...

 

[The Flying Doormat]

I've already mentioned this previously, but we have been on an upward trend since 2018

Sure, we had a poor 2nd half of the year, but I'd expect us to make finals again next year

What that looks like, it's still way to early to determine

Depends on the metrics. If you're wanting to plot a trend graph or line of best fit pretty sure we'd be very disappointed with the results. I've had one too many to do the numbers but in my inebriated state I'm visualising a line headed south east, just about level with the Teague era.

 

[JustaBattler]

Yeah mate... not once did I say we haven't improved since Bolton... don't know why you've compared Voss' W/L with Bolton's that's ridiculous given where our list was at during those corresponding approx 3 year tenures...

You can arithmetic... you also need to logic.

but hey not everyone can logic I get that.

The point is, under each coach we saw an immediate upward trend... then it stagnated across approx 3 years... and no, I didn't say we're "going backwards"... not anywhere

Like it or not, Voss will eventually be sacked... no use clinging onto a fairy tale of him riding off into the sunset as a 3 time premiership coach at Carlton as much as we all wish that to happen...

I quoted your numbers on Teague's results - not Boltons- it is arithmetic mate ie the simple point is the percentage improvement based on your referenced index of achievement.

I also provided some way variables to consider in any polynomial - you wish to use to include in any analysis and a definitive constant - for the amusement of people who get simple math.

Look I'm as disappointed as anyone re how the season panned out and I too will be looking for improvement next year.

As for my views on Voss- they stay the same - I prefer to see coaches see out their contracts and I factor in player availability as well as the actual list as a whole in determining what my expectations would be for a season - I dont hope and pray nro do I bray if the hope or prayer inst answered.

Simple fact is Carlton doesn't have a top4 top22 players list - it may have e a top 4 top10 players- but nowhere close to top4 bottom six players- and that is with everyone fit. Take out half the top players for Carlton and we are middling - just like any other team would be.

However if people get solace out of thinking Voss is a crap coach - they can go for it- just dont expect people like me who look at things with a tad less emotion and entitlement to join the pitchfork brigade - Voss is no Malthouse.

 

[jpfalvo]

Teague 2021:

5/6 goal runs = 5:
Port
*
Demons
Swans
Pies

"Teague's gift" = 7
Lions
Dogs
Giants
Cats
North
Port
Giants

------

Voss 2024:

5/6 goal runs = 4:
Demons
Tigers x 2
North

"Teague's gift" = 9:
Lions x2 (including ef)
Giants x2
Cats
Pies
Swans
Port
Hawks

Teagues gift defined as how many goals in a row?

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[Arr0w]

Depends on the metrics. If you're wanting to plot a trend graph or line of best fit pretty sure we'd be very disappointed with the results. I've had one too many to do the numbers but in my inebriated state I'm visualising a line headed south east, just about level with the Teague era.

Vodka?

I think it's still early to tell, but the club would be looking at a top 4 finish next year, especially if we are targeting mature aged players