Something To Think About - KP Talls.

[emperor]

Ok, assuming the brainstrust agree with Bj et al and think we're right with KP defenders ... so with pick 8 (assuming Vickery's gone) we get Ziebell, Hartlett, Yarran or Sidebottom (in that order of preference for me). Then with pick 26? Mitch Brown (KP forward)? Jordan Roughhead (ruck)? Jordan Lisle/Jayden Post (KP defenders)? Dan Hanneberry (mid)?
I'm with RT in that I would feel more comfortable if we had a taller, bigger bodied KP defender to take on the Franklins/Roughheads of the world, which is why elsewhere I have advocated Trengove at pick 8. But if there is a good chance one of Lisle or Post will be around at 26 maybe it is better to grab an elite mid at 8. What's a better result: Sidebottom/Post or Trengove/Hanneberry? That's what CC and FJ get paid good bucks to decide. I just wish we'd managed to wrangle an extra 2nd/3rd round pick. It's going to be a long wait between 26 and 58.
P.S. Polly is/was a much better forward than back.

Personally I'd go for the elite mid. Like you I would be happier if we had a bigger bodied KP defender so drafting one is a possibility, but elite mids don't grow on trees and it seems easier, from a development perspective, to turn KP sized players into versatile other end of the ground types (i.e. forward to back). Pretty hard to turn a half back/half forward flanker/wingman into an elite midfielder.

I still think we need more elite hard running mids (with good skills) with a big motor. Tambling, Connors, Edwards are all mid potential but are burst players to an extent and aren't in the same league as Deledio and Cotchin. Still am not 100% convinced on Foley because he does seem to go MIA for periods in games, but he is a level above the 3 i mentioned first and no doubt has the potential to step up. The tough one to classify is Tuck imo, has the motor and ball winning ability in close but out wide is far less damaging.

 

[CoggaRules]

I understand that Moore can play on talls, however I think his best position eventually will be as a rebounding defender along the lines of Milburn. Then if one of the talls we have is getting torn a new one we can then switch him across. To rely on him to play as a tall defender is playing with fire. Sure he did well playing against Franklin this year, however you can't rely on Franklin getting poor delivery every game like he did in the 2 games this year.

I just believe that if we can find a 194-196cm/95-98kg KP defender we will be in much better shape moving forward. Perhaps that is why TW is trying to turn Gourdis into a defender and at 193cm/90kg he could be the solution. However, given Gourdis kicked 8 goals in a game late in the season perhaps that experiment has died a natural death.

Guess time will tell if what we've got is good enough to see us through.

think about it this way RT, ever since Kel hit the scene, where has Bowden played most of the time?
Fast and mobile defender who can hold his own against the fast and mobile modern day KP forward athletes. Its the way the modern game is heading. Gorillas are getting scarce nowadays. IMO, our back line is on track to become the benchmark of the league. They all have the nessecary skills, pace, grunt and mongrel, along with a fast growing knowledge of each other's style and deficiencies, all that remains now is more experience and strength, which comes naturally with time. Reckon they will be spreading opposition cheeks in 2010. Dont fix what aint broken I say.
The FL on the other hand is something else. Someone has to have a break out season from the "potentials" if we are to mix it. By that I mean, a Steamer of Jack or whovever? Gourdis? has to step up and take over from Richo in the coleman medal race and give us min 60 big ones for the year. Richo will snag his usual 40+ , Mitch is good for at least 30 given a full season add 30(party tricking, opposition deflating, match winners) from Browny and we are in the mix.

 

[CoggaRules]

Personally I'd go for the elite mid. Like you I would be happier if we had a bigger bodied KP defender so drafting one is a possibility, but elite mids don't grow on trees and it seems easier, from a development perspective, to turn KP sized players into versatile other end of the ground types (i.e. forward to back). Pretty hard to turn a half back/half forward flanker/wingman into an elite midfielder.

I still think we need more elite hard running mids (with good skills) with a big motor. Tambling, Connors, Edwards are all mid potential but are burst players to an extent and aren't in the same league as Deledio and Cotchin. Still am not 100% convinced on Foley because he does seem to go MIA for periods in games, but he is a level above the 3 i mentioned first and no doubt has the potential to step up. The tough one to classify is Tuck imo, has the motor and ball winning ability in close but out wide is far less damaging.

IMO emp, the midfield gets enough ball into the FL to make waves. Our problem is translating that into scoreboard pressure. I am convinced that TW has factored in natural improvement in the way of strength and experience with the youngsters that make up most of it and of course we have the Cotch , who will have done a pre season.

 

[Bojangles17]

I'm with RT in that I would feel more comfortable if we had a taller, bigger bodied KP defender to take on the Franklins/Roughheads of the world, .

not exactly a compelling case their partner considering our backs soundly beat them both. Young defenders dont come mmuch better than Thursty, Mcguane and Moore...who are you suggesting out there in AFL land that peformed better aagaisnt this pair than our fellas. To draft another defender with our two prized pix would be a diabolical decision considering other aspects of the side that need attention if we are to progress

 

[emperor]

IMO emp, the midfield gets enough ball into the FL to make waves. Our problem is translating that into scoreboard pressure. I am convinced that TW has factored in natural improvement in the way of strength and experience with the youngsters that make up most of it and of course we have the Cotch , who will have done a pre season.

I'm not suggesting we are lacking firepower in terms of mids, but another elite goalkicking midfield player wouldn't go astray imo.

Would certainly be nice if our young forward line can do what they did against port this year, on a regular basis

 

[CoggaRules]

I'm not suggesting we are lacking firepower in terms of mids, but another elite goalkicking midfield player wouldn't go astray imo.

Would certainly be nice if our young forward line can do what they did against port this year, on a regular basis

ummm, we have him dude. He wears the no 9.

 

[emperor]

ummm, we have him dude. He wears the no 9.

lmao cogg, what's that kids name again??? I heard he goes alright.... I suppose I am getting bit greedy

fwiw I think we should draft the best available player with our first pick anyway, if that be a midfielder, KPF, ruckman or bootstudder then so be it

 

[davemills]

Woudn't mind another big bodied defender but needs are probably more pressing elsewhere. Namely, KPF, BP, Ruck.

Spot on gtf.

If there was a top flight Paul Roos CHB available I would take him first of course, but there will not be at our pick.

I have really warmed to McKernan. I was put off by his similarities to his brother and his clumsy look. I also thought he was a tweener. Upon closer look at a couple of games and his tests, I think he will turn out to be quite a tough, big fast unit...a real power player who can pinch hit in the ruck. I think he could have a David Cloke type career...I.e. a bit unco but very effective.

In order if available I would take :
Vickery, Ziebell, McKernan, Trengove, Sidebottom

I don't know enough about Hartlett to rate, however I hear he is a skinny guy with supreme skills. Given we need big bodies, unless he could be the small defender we need...pass.

 

[davemills]

I'm not suggesting we are lacking firepower in terms of mids, but another elite goalkicking midfield player wouldn't go astray imo.

Would certainly be nice if our young forward line can do what they did against port this year, on a regular basis

Our third round pick was spent on a midfielder. Surely that means we will go tall, big and tall.

 

[emperor]

Our third round pick was spent on a midfielder. Surely that means we will go tall, big and tall.

I did neglect to consider Thomson in my calculations.

That does change it a bit for me. Best available player is still the way to go imo, though a big/tall would be nice. Later picks are likely to go on big and tall players too as you suggest

 

[CoggaRules]

I did neglect to consider Thomson in my calculations.

That does change it a bit for me. Best available player is still the way to go imo, though a big/tall would be nice. Later picks are likely to go on big and tall players too as you suggest

at the end of the day dude, "the best available", will be known to all and sundry.
Its what others are going to pick as well.
What we need is for FJ/CC to do their homework, go into kids' backgrounds, research them thoroughly, look at their "negatives", assess them on what they can do if the negatives are addressed and to pull one out of their arses.
The positives are known to every man and his dog.
You cant tell me that there arent any sleepers that have laid low for any given reason. These are the dudes we need to uncover. The 10 or so that are talked about ad nauseaum will cough up say 2 guns, 3 good ones, 3 good ordinaries and 2 hacks.

 

[emperor]

at the end of the day dude, "the best available", will be known to all and sundry.
Its what others are going to pick as well.
What we need is for FJ/CC to do their homework, go into kids' backgrounds, research them thoroughly, look at their "negatives", assess them on what they can do if the negatives are addressed and to pull one out of their arses.
The positives are known to every man and his dog.
You cant tell me that there arent any sleepers that have laid low for any given reason. These are the dudes we need to uncover. The 10 or so that are talked about ad nauseaum will cough up say 2 guns, 3 good ones, 3 good ordinaries and 2 hacks.

True.

My definition of best available also means best available for RFC and I don't particularly mean best available according to the phantom draft or some stats nerd.

Hypothetically if we thought Sidebottom was going to be the next Leigh matthews or James hird, because we have done our homework and think he is that he is good upstairs as well as on the field etc, would we pass on him and take say Natanui or Vickery just because we think we need a tall more than another midfielder? I would hope not. All hypothetical though as I know sweet FA about the draftees really apart from what is spouted on here and various other websites. Thus i trust (pray lol) the RFC will know what's best for us

 

[Mr Anderson]

Hypothetically if we thought Sidebottom was going to be the next Leigh matthews or James hird, because we have done our homework and think he is that he is good upstairs as well as on the field etc, would we pass on him and take say Natanui or Vickery just because we think we need a tall more than another midfielder? I would hope not. All hypothetical though as I know sweet FA about the draftees really apart from what is spouted on here and various other websites. Thus i trust (pray lol) the RFC will know what's best for us

Have a read of Emma Quayle's book "The Draft". It's not unreasonable to assume all clubs now approach recruiting in the same way as the Hawks do, especially now as they have laid their overall approach out in black and white - and it has been shown to be successful. Given this is very much a "copycat" league, it's likely the Tigers are following a similar agenda. It really gives an insight into just how much assessment of prospective draftees goes on - it's not just Francis Jackson on his own.

However, despite all the data, stats, opinions from coaches etc, there is a real risk of "paralysis by analysis" and focussing on the negatives too much - that's how players like Joel Selwood last to pick 7. It's also an inexact science which can't predict which 17/18 yo will grow and not lose athleticism, who won't go off the rails in the bright lights with a bit of money in the pocket and everyone kissing his ass, who actually can play against fully grown men after just playing against boys... and a host of other variables.

(I just hope the Tigers get another Trent Cotchin rather than another Alex Gilmour.)

 

[Ruanaidh]

Would Jackson Trengrove be a possibility at 8? Could also develop into a Ruck/Ruck Rover type given the new boundary umpire provisions.

 

[_RT_]

So you'd like to see a slow lumbering defender play on Franklin? IMO, Moore/Williams (WBD) are the perfect match-ups for Buddy (The new age KP Forward). Half the players you mentioned can't even get games in their team and have showed next to nothing in the VFL.

Our 3 talls can play on any type of forward excluding the small crumbers. Its the new age of defenders.

Williams is 196cm & 101kg and is exactly the type of player I am talking about us trying to secure. Has height, size but also has decent speed. Just because some of those I mentioned haven't played games as yet doesn't mean they wont in the next 1-2 seasons, especially players like Dowler, Thorp, Gumbleton, Kennedy, Hawkins & Mitch Brown who are all highly regarded young forwards with time on their sides.

I'm just saying that it wont hurt us if we did pick up a defender with those attributes. Especially if it allows us to use other players in more suitable positions.

 

[_RT_]

not exactly a compelling case their partner considering our backs soundly beat them both. Young defenders dont come mmuch better than Thursty, Mcguane and Moore...who are you suggesting out there in AFL land that peformed better aagaisnt this pair than our fellas. To draft another defender with our two prized pix would be a diabolical decision considering other aspects of the side that need attention if we are to progress

Just because our backs beat them once or twice it doesn't mean they will beat them forever and a day. The 2 times we played them Franklin failed to make the most of his opportunities, do you really think that is going to happen every game for the next 8-10 years? Personally, I don't. That is why I'm saying we should look at getting another KP defender in this years draft.

As I said it doesn't have to be a kid taken with the first 2 picks, it can be our 4th or 5th round pick hell even if it was a rookie I wouldn't care. Just get one in that we can develop over the next couple of years so that when Will, Moore and McGuane are 24-27, we will at least have someone else besides Rance who is 21-25 and coming through.

 

[richoatthedisco]

not exactly a compelling case their partner considering our backs soundly beat them both. Young defenders dont come mmuch better than Thursty, Mcguane and Moore...who are you suggesting out there in AFL land that peformed better aagaisnt this pair than our fellas. To draft another defender with our two prized pix would be a diabolical decision considering other aspects of the side that need attention if we are to progress

Actually, Roughead smashed us first time around and was completely ignored by his teammates second time, allowing us to triple-team Franklin, who still had 15 scoring shots in two games against us. If his 1.7 in the first game was 7.1, I doubt anyone would claim Moore beat him.

Spot on gtf.

If there was a top flight Paul Roos CHB available I would take him first of course, but there will not be at our pick.

I have really warmed to McKernan. I was put off by his similarities to his brother and his clumsy look. I also thought he was a tweener. Upon closer look at a couple of games and his tests, I think he will turn out to be quite a tough, big fast unit...a real power player who can pinch hit in the ruck. I think he could have a David Cloke type career...I.e. a bit unco but very effective.

In order if available I would take :
Vickery, Ziebell, McKernan, Trengove, Sidebottom

Similar to my thinking. I too have warmed to McKernan, and I reckon Trengove could play at either end.

 

[_RT_]

Actually, Roughead smashed us first time around and was completely ignored by his teammates second time, allowing us to triple-team Franklin, who still had 15 scoring shots in two games against us. If his 1.7 in the first game was 7.1, I doubt anyone would claim Moore beat him.


Similar to my thinking. I too have warmed to McKernan, and I reckon Trengove could play at either end.

Mentioned a couple of weeks back that I thought we would get McKernan at pick 8 and was ridiculed for even suggesting it. After seeing his test results I believe he could come into calculations if the midfielders we want are all gone.

 

[sante]

Williams is 196cm & 101kg and is exactly the type of player I am talking about us trying to secure. Has height, size but also has decent speed. Just because some of those I mentioned haven't played games as yet doesn't mean they wont in the next 1-2 seasons, especially players like Dowler, Thorp, Gumbleton, Kennedy, Hawkins & Mitch Brown who are all highly regarded young forwards with time on their sides.

I'm just saying that it wont hurt us if we did pick up a defender with those attributes. Especially if it allows us to use other players in more suitable positions.

Williams is 101kg? He looks like a stick to me.

You can whinge and moan all you like about us 'needing' another KP Defender, but it will never happen. Moore, Thursfield and McGuane are the new age defenders and all clubs will be looking this way in the future, not for the big lumbering defender who can't keep up with their opponent.

 

[_RT_]

Williams is 101kg? He looks like a stick to me.

You can whinge and moan all you like about us 'needing' another KP Defender, but it will never happen. Moore, Thursfield and McGuane are the new age defenders and all clubs will be looking this way in the future, not for the big lumbering defender who can't keep up with their opponent.

I'm not whinging and moaning about getting another defender, what I'm trying to point out is our defence is not as rock solid as everyone likes to make out. Sure we have 3 decent players now, but what about the future? When Moore, Thursfield & McGuane are 25-27, what is your plan for covering them, hope some fresh faced kid can come in straight out of the draft and do the job?

As I said I would prefer we shore up our tall defender stocks by taking another 18 year old kid to develop alongside Rance, even if it means we rookie one. That way when the above 3 are 25-27 we could at least have 2 KP defenders coming through who are 22-24 much like we have now, but unfortunately we don't have anyone in the 25-27 age bracket to take some of the heat off.