St Kilda President Andrew Bassat tees off on the AFL draft system, specifically father/son and the Northern Academies

[MysticChameleon]

Of course it is! That's exactly the point. If you want a player like Naicos (who everyone could see was going to be at least very very good) then you pay through the nose. As it stands, he cost almost nothing relative to his likelihood of succeeding.

Didn't we finish 17th the year we got Naicos, I realise we'd traded our pick away to GWS but just in terms of being down the bottom it wasn't that much of a stretch for the second worst team to end up with a top 5 draft player.

And great as he's become, at the time he was considered behind Darcy and Horne-Francis by most recruiters. It's only with hindsight - us winning a premiership and Naicos developing to be even better than expected - that people call this out as being unfair. Collingwood's had plenty of misses with fs picks too, but they're less interesting to talk about.

 

[caloschwaby]

It’s unfair because the benefits of the system are random and unevenly distributed.

Semantically, something cannot be unfair if it's random. Randomness is fair because it has no bias - it is random. Sure the results can be unevenly distributed, but unfairness implies the dice have been weighted - they haven't. Even club bar GC/GWS has had access to the randomness of F/S selections as soon as a father's first kid turns 18.

Agreed that discounts should be looked at as the main benefit of F/S should just be the ability to access a player that you otherwise wouldn't have given the picks you have available due to finishing Top 8 or so.

Feel like the AFL used all their black magic keeping St Kilda in the league from the shaky late 80s/90s that their luck in the F/S department hasn't quite hit in the modern era.

 

[Nvent]

This is it in a nutshell !!

St.Blunda have been a cellar dweller club for all of its existence, they make mistake after mistake after mistake but lo & behold, its always someone elses fault.

Pointing the finger at the F/S rule because their players are all having daughters is utterly absurd, may as well ring up god and see if he can fix that for them.

They are always first in the queue for the welfare handouts, have no success to talk about and are perenially run by complete nuff-nuffs.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, its time the AFL shuffled this rabble off to another state permanently. Give them some draft assistance & a bit of COLA for doing so and then leave them to their own devices.

If they blow all of the welfare assistance given to them and find themselves back in the spiral of diminishing returns again, then just wind them up for good.

They are a blight on the competition and always have been to such an extent that non-Saints fans are growing extremnely sick & tired of these annual sook-up woe-is-me's.

They've never cheated though.

 

[CakeEater]

Haven’t the Dogs won a flag in the last 8 years? What advantages do we have that aren’t available to the Saints? Do they have a zone/academy area? Are their former players not capable of having children?

Umpires giving you freekicks and a flag.

Just ask Plugger.

 

[Nvent]

Didn't we finish 17th the year we got Naicos, I realise we'd traded our pick away to GWS but just in terms of being down the bottom it wasn't that much of a stretch for the second worst team to end up with a top 5 draft player.

And great as he's become, at the time he was considered behind Darcy and Horne-Francis by most recruiters. It's only with hindsight - us winning a premiership and Naicos developing to be even better than expected - that people call this out as being unfair. Collingwood's had plenty of misses with fs picks too, but they're less interesting to talk about.

That's another stuff up though. Trade your first pick and get access to a gun with a handful of garbage picks.

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

Making excuses to feed the fan base.

How come Hawthorn is so fricken good all the time?

Umm because they had access to priorirty picks, which got them ahead, which then got scratched after they had benefited the most from it?

Id like to see how Hawks went if you take Lance Franklin out of the clubs history.... He single handidly defined 10+ years of that clubs success.

 

[BIGHAWK23]

Umm because they had access to priorirty picks, which got them ahead, which then got scratched after they had benefited the most from it?

Id like to see how Hawks went if you take Lance Franklin out of the clubs history.... He single handidly defined 10+ years of that clubs success.

Lance Franklin wasn't a priority pick

Weird point

 

[Pistol Night]

Umm because they had access to priorirty picks, which got them ahead, which then got scratched after they had benefited the most from it?

Id like to see how Hawks went if you take Lance Franklin out of the clubs history.... He single handidly defined 10+ years of that clubs success.

They improved after he left

 

[LordLucifer]

They've never cheated though.

Rather irrelevant comment to the discussion but thanks for making it.

 

[caloschwaby]

What would inevitably happen if F/S system is neutered out of existence:
1. Gun player drafted by one of GC/North/Stk/another club with recent history of poor list management
2. Play out their rookie contract, finishing no higher than 12th while playing for the team
3. Request trade to their father's club
4. Club gets bounty of picks for the acquisition
5. See Step #1

F/S just cutting out the middle-man and getting everybody to where they want to go!

 

[bergholt]

Semantically, something cannot be unfair if it's random. Randomness is fair because it has no bias - it is random. Sure the results can be unevenly distributed, but unfairness implies the dice have been weighted - they haven't. Even club bar GC/GWS has had access to the randomness of F/S selections as soon as a father's first kid turns 18.

Semantically, fairness can refer either to the process or the outcome. Clearly I was talking about the outcome.

But also, because of historical differences in the number of 100 gamers (which I posted earlier), the process is also biased in particular ways which are not perfectly fair.

 

[bergholt]

What would inevitably happen if F/S system is neutered out of existence:
1. Gun player drafted by one of GC/North/Stk/another club with recent history of poor list management
2. Play out their rookie contract, finishing no higher than 12th while playing for the team
3. Request trade to their father's club
4. Club gets bounty of picks for the acquisition
5. See Step #1

F/S just cutting out the middle-man and getting everybody to where they want to go!

...except that in your system the selling club gets picks. In the current system they just get their pick pushed back down the order of the draft.

 

[Bald]

Of course they're responsible, that's completely the point! We were unsuccessful in that period and so ended up with fewer 100 gamers. So are you saying that we should then be condemned to lack of success forever because that cycle will never end?

Of course not - but to suggest St Kilda's lack of success is due to their lack of academy or father sons is just a nonsense. You can win the premiership without them. Richmond and Hawthorn have won 6 of the last 12 premierships and neither (from memory) had a massive number of father son or academy players on their list.

Ross Lyon is saying that the AFL would be doing the right thing if the draft was compromised heavily due to Josh Battle leaving, but then Bassat is talking about the inequalities in the draft, I just don't think you can demand that a flawed system benefit you in one area, whilst demanding change in another.

 

[Nvent]

What would inevitably happen if F/S system is neutered out of existence:
1. Gun player drafted by one of GC/North/Stk/another club with recent history of poor list management
2. Play out their rookie contract, finishing no higher than 12th while playing for the team
3. Request trade to their father's club
4. Club gets bounty of picks for the acquisition
5. See Step #1

F/S just cutting out the middle-man and getting everybody to where they want to go!

Brisbanes best forward was a father son they bought in. Clearly the romance of playing at your fathers club isn't that important.

 

[jakson68]

That's another stuff up though. Trade your first pick and get access to a gun with a handful of garbage picks.

Did you not see the players you landed last year with junk picks?

 

[Red Black and Blue]

He's spot on. NGA and Father son are mickey mouse rules for a non serious competition. Its a kin to permitting a few teams to use steroids.

 

[bergholt]

Didn't we finish 17th the year we got Naicos, I realise we'd traded our pick away to GWS but just in terms of being down the bottom it wasn't that much of a stretch for the second worst team to end up with a top 5 draft player.

And great as he's become, at the time he was considered behind Darcy and Horne-Francis by most recruiters. It's only with hindsight - us winning a premiership and Naicos developing to be even better than expected - that people call this out as being unfair.

Contemporaneous evidence:

Nick Daicos

central.rookieme.com

"Faced with arguably more expectation and attention that any other draft prospect in recent memory, the impressive 18-year-old has taken on each challenge with aplomb and is rightly considered one of the best two prospects nationwide."

"He was nothing short of dominant among his peers; consistently racking up game-high numbers in the NAB League or one-off representative showcases."

"Looking at pure numbers, Daicos' 2021 averages stack up against the likes of Matt Rowell and Sam Walsh, both of whom were undeniable number one picks out of the NAB League."

"While there will be plenty of conjecture over whether Daicos is worthy of a bid at pick one until his name is called out, it means little in the grand scheme of things. Collingwood has known for over a year that it had a top three talent on the horizon and planned accordingly, while stating it would commit to matching a bid at any pick."


Yes, you finished 17th, but because you planned for him to come along and traded the pick, at the very least it means you got double value from finishing that low.

Collingwood's had plenty of misses with fs picks too, but they're less interesting to talk about.

It's about tickets in the lottery. The more tickets you get, the more likely you are to win. Collingwood has had 6 father sons in the last 10 years, the Saints have had 1. That makes it more likely you'll get one who turns out to be good. In practice 3 of those 6 have been All-Australian, so it definitely looks unfair.

 

[SSSSSS]

Making excuses to feed the fan base.

How come Hawthorn is so fricken good all the time?

We've had some shite F&S for us, JPK the best but made his career elsewhere. Langford has a purple patch at the right time but nothing long term.

Dear looks like being the best of the lot as an 18 year old already.

We've also been shafted out of NGA this year. Should have had 2x probable first round selections this year in Moraes and Tauru but for whatever reason they've been stripped of NGA eligibility.

Saints got Owens for cheap. He was a gun junior.

 

[RoyBoy17]

 

[Philhawk]

The amount of non St Kilda supporters commenting and instead of discussing the issue are targeting the saints or Bassat are hilarious and highlights the issues even further.

He is not saying to get rid of father sons or academies.

He is saying pay a fair cost for the access.

Ashcroft is undoubtedly the best player in this draft. What would it cost Brisbane for a top 5 pick? Bailey? Would you still want him then?

Naicos for the pies. It would have cost them someone integral to their 23’ flag side.

The suns with 4 first round picks the other year. There is no way they would have landed equivalent values to bring them all in.

It’s provides equality all the way down the ladder.

Exactly. Self interest as per always is the sole thing that’ll prevent anyone from having a decent conversation.

It’s just so blindingly simple what needs to happen. Academy, father son, draft - make it fair for all.

 

[bergholt]

Of course not - but to suggest St Kilda's lack of success is due to their lack of academy or father sons is just a nonsense. You can win the premiership without them. Richmond and Hawthorn have won 6 of the last 12 premierships and neither (from memory) had a massive number of father son or academy players on their list.

Ross Lyon is saying that the AFL would be doing the right thing if the draft was compromised heavily due to Josh Battle leaving, but then Bassat is talking about the inequalities in the draft, I just don't think you can demand that a flawed system benefit you in one area, whilst demanding change in another.

One is an equalising measure (free agency compensation), the other is an unequalising measure (father-son). Not too hard to understand.

I don't mind the northern academies tbh. Getting more Qld and NSW talent into the AFL is a good thing. I do think though that eligibility could be tightened - if an academy player had an AFL playing father, or if they go to a Melbourne private school, it doesn't feel like they should still come with priority access.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Does he also have a problem with Stkilda being gifted top end draft picks year after year after year for being shit? Or is that the right kind of unfairness?

 

[BIGHAWK23]

Remove FA compo

Reckon he would shut up right quick

 

[bergholt]

Saints got Owens for cheap. He was a gun junior.

I think the academies outside NSW and Qld clubs should go, personally. But pretending Owens was a "gun" junior is only accurate if you buy the shit from the AFL media where everyone is a star. He was around top 30 quality and that's about where he ended up.

 

[jakson68]

The whole F/S debate is stupid.
Apart from GWS and GC, every other team has access to F/S, so I am unsure what Bassat is complaining about.

The issue I have is with double ups, F/S and Northern Academies.
GWS and GC, should have academies with the same points scoring as F/S picks.
Brisbane and Sydney receive the same F/S discount but their academy player discounts should be changed.