St Kilda President Andrew Bassat tees off on the AFL draft system, specifically father/son and the Northern Academies

[Philhawk]

Not really competitively equal when the Hawks just took one of their only good players for less than what St Kilda allegedly were offering.

But I suppose if the Saints want to treat their players like this...

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How embarrassing. Culture is set at the top. What a sad, petty organization.

 

[RUNVS]

Exactly right! Which is why father son entrenches inequality. If you’ve got Peter Daicos teaching you to kick in your backyard then you’ll probably end up a fair bit better than if you have Robert Elphinstone.

Josh Dunkley has turned out okay despite having Andrew teaching him to kick.

 

[jakson68]

No doubt at all we've gotten pretty lucky with the Ashcroft boys.

Yes you have.
That is what it is though... Luck.

Every club (apart from GWS and GC) have access to F/S. Some will be good, some wont.
At Collingwood we have seen both sides of good and bad.

The F/S rules are actually the one thing in the comp that is fair.
All clubs have the same access to their players.

 

[Gavin Excell]

They've clearly looked at their pipeline and see no genuine Father Son prospects in the offing.

There'd be no complaining if there was one about to land.

And that's fine - clubs will forever be looking after their own interests

 

[Elixuh]

How embarrassing. Culture is set at the top. What a sad, petty organization.

Exactly. So complaining about all these other things just falls so flat when they're a mess everywhere. Fix that and then people might take them seriously.

 

[bungalow_bill]

Wow, I hope all these F/S haters one day know what it means to feel joy...far out

Lions fans be sitting back bathing in premiership glory and waiting on our latest rort #1 pick

 

[Scottish Bob]

Also a club that has had 1 father son pick in the last 20 years can’t expect to change everything because it’s absolutely their issue saints players kids haven’t developed.

For example the Bulldogs have been investing heavily in father son players in a junior academy for the last 25-30 years, we have taken 7 in that time. There became premiership players.

 

[Philhawk]

Exactly. So complaining about all these other things just falls so flat when they're a mess everywhere. Fix that and then people might take them seriously.

That’s a strawman argument. Just because they’re terribly run doesn’t mean the points he’s making aren’t true.

 

[kickazz]

You can tell who has only watched the small clip and who has watched the whole speech.

https://www.saints.com.au/video/1669725/2024-trevor-barker-award-presidents-address?videoId=1669725&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1727691406001

Finals have been held at Docklands 6 times. Finals only happen there if they can't hold it at the G.

Not true.

Of those 6 finals, on 4, so the majority, of the occasions the game was played there as the only game in Melbourne that day, with no game played at the MCG.

So what you say may well be policy now but my point is they should lobby to going back to how it was before, where the AFL 'chose' it as the preferred venue.

 

[Elixuh]

That’s a strawman argument. Just because they’re terribly run doesn’t mean the points he’s making aren’t true.

Not what I said. I've said further up that the points are correct, but that no one takes them seriously because they're a mess.

 

[Philhawk]

Not what I said. I've said further up that the points are correct, but that no one takes them seriously because they're a mess.

We can agree on that!

 

[Sentinel]

Exactly right! Which is why father son entrenches inequality. If you’ve got Peter Daicos teaching you to kick in your backyard then you’ll probably end up a fair bit better than if you have Robert Elphinstone.

Luck is a huge element of father-sons but there is probably a little more to it than just that. Clubs like Gold Coast and GWS are still quite a few years away from being able to utilise the system, but on top of that there are no doubt other elements which affect the chance that a player at any particular club will reach the 100 games threshold.

I suspect a decent to very good player at a big Melbourne club is more likely to play 100 games at that original club, than if they were to have been drafted by a club which travels more often (particularly the Perth clubs), or if they played for a smaller 'feeder' club as they're often known.

Since their first season in 1897, St Kilda have had 137 players pass the 100 game milestone, compared to the other 'big 4' clubs which started the same year - 178 for Essendon, 183 for Collingwood and 185 for Carlton. I don't know the exact reasons why or how it stacks up in more recent years, but overall that means 30% less F-S eligible players to draft (had the rule stretched back to the start of the VFL).

 

[bergholt]

Exactly. So complaining about all these other things just falls so flat when they're a mess everywhere. Fix that and then people might take them seriously.

Such a weird argument. You can’t complain about a clear inequality if you’ve done anything at all that others perceive to be misguided?

 

[PhatBoy]

There is very little tradition left in sport, and to some degree we bemoan it at every turn.

Cricket is suffering because so much of it is meaningless: players are traded like used cars to franchises, not states, and represent whoever will pay them the most money for the least work.

In the rugby codes a contract means next to nothing and players are forever leaving to go to another side, the English super league, or to play Japanese or French rugby union from the NRL. A club like the Penrith Panthers who continually funnel players into their side from development squads and local junior teams is a throwback to 40 years ago and as such they have a closer tie to their local community than most professional teams within Australia.

We whinge about how players move teams more in this era and how contracts are worth less, loyalty is less of a commodity.

How suburban grounds are no longer a feature of the game. Watching other sports from afar, we see that recently a player in the MLB started a game playing for one team and by the end of a rain delay was playing for another. That’s how little commitment is actually worth in many sports nowadays.

Meanwhile one aspect that AFL has tried to keep alive in what is one of the most tribally followed sports in the world is the idea that a son, more than likely raised in the shadow of the club his father played for, can grow up and play for that club and follow in his fathers footsteps.


We whinge about that but not the fact that teams are rewarded year upon year for being garbage by getting first access to the best players - usually because of their own mismanagement and shortcomings?

 

[bzparkes]

Such a weird argument. You can’t complain about a clear inequality if you’ve done anything at all that others perceive to be misguided?

I would suggest that for a club president, teeing off about academies and FS acquisitions from other clubs being a reason for your own club's lack of success, at a B&F dinner no less, probably isn't going to instill the players and supporters with a lot of confidence.

He should be using that opportunity to lay out how the club has a plan to win premierships in the near future and what that looks like.

Instead, he chose to reinforce a victim mentality and not instill hope.

 

[oak79]

He's right though.

The point system is so broken - getting a first round player in exchange for a bunch of late picks.

Get rid of points - if you have a f/s or academy nomination, you should have to use your next pick after a bid (or pick above if the bid is within 1 of your pick). You still get a bargain, potentially.

If you have 2 player nominated in the same draft round, you can use a F pick.

Nominations & bids should be done pre draft - and locked in.


If no one bids on your nomination, you can use your lowest pick (but you have to take them if you nominate)

That gets rid of scenario where the wooden spoooners 2nd pick is in the 30s.

(and get rid of compo picks completely)

 

[Sentinel]

There is very little tradition left in sport, and to some degree we bemoan it at every turn.

Cricket is suffering because so much of it is meaningless: players are traded like used cars to franchises, not states, and represent whoever will pay them the most money for the least work.

In the rugby codes a contract means next to nothing and players are forever leaving to go to another side, the English super league, or to play Japanese or French rugby union from the NRL. A club like the Penrith Panthers who continually funnel players into their side from development squads and local junior teams is a throwback to 40 years ago and as such they have a closer tie to their local community than most professional teams within Australia.

We whinge about how players move teams more in this era and how contracts are worth less, loyalty is less of a commodity.

How suburban grounds are no longer a feature of the game. Watching other sports from afar, we see that recently a player in the MLB started a game playing for one team and by the end of a rain delay was playing for another. That’s how little commitment is actually worth in many sports nowadays.

Meanwhile one aspect that AFL has tried to keep alive in what is one of the most tribally followed sports in the world is the idea that a son, more than likely raised in the shadow of the club his father played for, can grow up and play for that club and follow in his fathers footsteps.


We whinge about that but not the fact that teams are rewarded year upon year for being garbage by getting first access to the best players - usually because of their own mismanagement and shortcomings?

The argument from Bassat re father-sons was not about abolishing the system. It was about making clubs pay a fairer price for them. I don't think that alone should be seen as a particularly controversial view.

 

[The Jack]

Also a club that has had 1 father son pick in the last 20 years can’t expect to change everything because it’s absolutely their issue saints players kids haven’t developed.

For example the Bulldogs have been investing heavily in father son players in a junior academy for the last 25-30 years, we have taken 7 in that time. There became premiership players.

You don't think St Kilda have as well? I know for a fact they have.

Doesn't change good fortune. Just emphasises the fact it's pot luck.

 

[adammania9]

What!?!

Collingwood have had their fair share of draft stuff ups.

They have been bailed out by the quality of father sons that hasn’t hurt their assets or sides to claim.

Finlay Macrae over Max Holmes
Jaidyn Stephenson over Aaron Naughton
Matt Scharenberg over Christian Salem
Nathan Freeman over Dom Sheed/Patrick Cripps

BUT

they get gifted Nick Daicos, Darcy Moore, Isaac Quaynor for nothing

Imagine if they had to acquire a top 5 pick for Daicos. They probably don’t win the 23 flag.

Collingwood had pick 2 the year Nick Daicos was drafted but traded out of it because they were attached to him. He’d have still ended up a Collingwood player.

 

[Elixuh]

Such a weird argument. You can’t complain about a clear inequality if you’ve done anything at all that others perceive to be misguided?

You can, but many won't take you seriously and will point to all of these other things that are maybe the reason why the Saints aren't going so well. I mean you just told one of your players not to attend the B&F, that speaks to a rubbish culture. And putting it on the agenda as a key issue in the president's address of a B&F is important context as well.

 

[PhatBoy]

The argument from Bassat re father-sons was not about abolishing the system. It was about making clubs pay a fairer price for them. I don't think that alone should be seen as a particularly controversial view.

No and I agree with that to a reasonable degree. I’m referring to people who think the system itself is archaic and stupid and the very idea of it needs removing.

 

[RUNVS]

He's right though.

The point system is so broken - getting a first round player in exchange for a bunch of late picks.

This is not really accurate though.

Say Sydney had pick 15 and needed points for a player at pick 7.

Sydney could trade pick 15 for picks 29 and 32.

Then trade pick 29 for pick 38 and 40, and then trade 32 for 43 and 47.

So Sydney would use pick 38, 40, 43 and 47 to get the player at pick 7 but ultimately we paid the pick 15 as that is the intial pick we had before we started trading downwards.

 

[stavro#4]

Collingwood had pick 2 the year Nick Daicos was drafted but traded out of it because they were attached to him. He’d have still ended up a Collingwood player.

Collingwood traded its 2021 first rounder (pick 2) the season earlier for picks in the 2020 draft. It had nothing to do with Nick Daicos and it was in noway paying fair market value.

It was a bad trade that would have blown up in most clubs faces that had nil impact on the pies due to the fact you could match the Daicos bid with BS picks - which was the entire point of Bassats argument.

 

[bergholt]

You can, but many won't take you seriously and will point to all of these other things that are maybe the reason why the Saints aren't going so well.

Sure, I guess that means the Saints can't say anything publicly until we've won a couple of flags?

 

[stavro#4]

This is not really accurate though.

Say Sydney had pick 15 and needed points for a player at pick 7.

Sydney could trade pick 15 for picks 29 and 32.

Then trade pick 29 for pick 38 and 40, and then trade 32 for 43 and 47.

So Sydney would use pick 38, 40, 43 and 47 to get the player at pick 7 but ultimately we paid the pick 15 as that is the intial pick we had before we started trading downwards.

That isn’t 100% accurate as the trading down also then requires compensation to the swans in the following draft.

Hence the double dipping argument and how it’s BS that a club can match p7 with nothing picks and gain something for the following season.