Stats questions

[The Passenger]

Re: Post your stats questions here

two questions. first one is probably easiest.

what is the average height and median height of each clubs 22 on the park this season.

i.e. west coast have played 13 games. 13 x 22 = 286. i'm looking for the average and median height of those 286 players. and 308 players for those clubs with 14 games under their belt. not the average and median height of the whole list.

i reckon it's a bit of a myth that west coast have been playing super tall this year but happy to be proven wrong.


question two i don't even know how you'd query a database for it. i'm just trying to find eerily similar records of teammates who have failed to get on the park together as much as beau waters and sam butler. since we won the grand final they have played just 5 games together, despite amassing 51 and 35 games respectively. both have had their injury concerns (12.75 and 8.75 games a season is pretty low) but the stunning coincidence of them missing games when the other is fit is nothing short of amazing.

and it looks set to happy again this weekend with waters returning to the line up and butler now injured....

EDIT:

their record of playing together prior to the grand final wasn't much better. since their careers began in 2004 they have played 75 (Butler) and 84 (Waters) games but still only 23 together. 2004 they played 5 games together, 2006 they played 13 games together, in 2010 they played 5 games together. 2005, 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2011 they have played 0 games together.

EDIT II:

i guess the best query i'm looking for would be to look over an 8 year or greater period, two teammates both having played a minimum of 70 games, with games played together as a % of the lowest team mates game tally... i.e. from 2004 to 2011 Butlers/Waters combo would be 30.66% (23/75)

also querying what is the lowest % over a 5 year period with waters/butler combo now sitting at 14.28% (5/35) for the 2007 to 2011 period

 

[Ron The Bear]

Re: Post your stats questions here

two questions. first one is probably easiest.

what is the average height and median height of each clubs 22 on the park this season.

i.e. west coast have played 13 games. 13 x 22 = 286. i'm looking for the average and median height of those 286 players. and 308 players for those clubs with 14 games under their belt. not the average and median height of the whole list.

i reckon it's a bit of a myth that west coast have been playing super tall this year but happy to be proven wrong.

No myth, Eagles are tall freaks. Last year they averaged 189.45cm per player. West Coast of 2010-11 is the only example of a club averaging above 189cm per player over a season. Freo in 2011 is the third tallest team on record (going by official VFL/AFL heights). Something in the water over there.

Cb AvgHgt MedHt
---------------
WC 189.04 189
Fr 188.94 188 
Ad 188.46 187
Ge 187.89 188
St 187.85 187
GC 187.77 186
Br 187.66 185
WB 187.62 186
Es 187.57 186
Sy 187.45 188
Co 187.36 186.5
Ri 187.28 187
Me 186.86 186
Ca 186.83 187
PA 186.74 186
NM 186.57 186.5
Ha 186.46 186

Might need some time to answer the other one.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Re: Post your stats questions here

Probably a very easy one for someone who knows where to look (i.e. not me):

Where can I find the marks inside 50 stat for this year, per club?

Pro-Stats records their own data which differ slightly from the Champion Data numbers, but for a stat like marks inside 50 the figures should be close enough to identical.

Not sure how much you can see without a membership, e.g.

http://www.pro-stats.com.au/psw/web/team_home?tid=114

For the record, the Pro-Stats numbers for and against are

Ad 137 195
Br 134 158
Ca 192 144
Co 164 108
Es 164 160
Fr 184 153
Ge 200 130
GC 86 234
Ha 192 122
Me 182 171
Ka 171 176
PA 152 194
Ri 142 179
St 135 142
Sy 150 134
WC 157 112
WB 154 184

 

[The Passenger]

Re: Post your stats questions here

No myth, Eagles are tall freaks. Last year they averaged 189.45cm per player. West Coast of 2010-11 is the only example of a club averaging above 189cm per player over a season. Freo in 2011 is the third tallest team on record (going by official VFL/AFL heights). Something in the water over there.

interesting. i knew we'd be towards the top, but still didn't think we'd be at the top.

either way i don't them we've gone abnormally tall aside from rounds 3 and 4 when we played 9 key positions players (brown, cox, darling, glass, kennedy, schofield, naitanui, lynch, mackenzie)

Might need some time to answer the other one.

yeah fair enough. it's a pretty tough one to query.

i just can't believe any other pairing could have played so little football together despite both still having a decent amount of football under their belts during the exact same time lasted at the club.

their record of missing each other is getting outrageous now.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Re: Post your stats questions here

i guess the best query i'm looking for would be to look over an 8 year or greater period, two teammates both having played a minimum of 70 games, with games played together as a % of the lowest team mates game tally... i.e. from 2004 to 2011 Butlers/Waters combo would be 30.66% (23/75)

The following data was compiled using the "Club Season Lists" from the AFL stats site, e.g. http://stats.afl.com.au/public/stat...Value=14&season_idIndex=81&AFLstatisticMenu=1

Prior to 1979, these tables only list players who played at least one senior game that year. Given these qualifications, the top 20 (with games played together and seasons on the same list) are

  %   Cb Player 1        Gms Player 2           Gms Ma Se
---------------------------------------------------------
12.68 Es Calthorpe, David 71 Cransberg, Peter    79  9  8
19.23 Es Alessio, Steven  78 Cransberg, Peter    79 15  8
20.83 NM Dwyer, David     72 Martyn, Mick        76 15  8
21.52 Ca Buckley, Jim     90 Robertson, Shane M. 79 17  9
25.97 Es Calthorpe, David 92 Wallis, Dean        77 20 10
26.58 Es Cransberg, Peter 79 Mercuri, Mark       90 21  8
27.16 Me Connolly, Chris  81 Grinter, Rod        91 22  8
28.40 Me Connolly, Chris  81 Newport, Stephen   101 23  8
29.63 Me Connolly, Chris  81 Yeats, Graeme      116 24  8
30.12 Br Keating, Clark  105 McDonald, Beau      83 25  9
30.38 Es Cransberg, Peter 79 Misiti, Joe        103 24  8
30.67 WC Butler, Sam      75 Waters, Beau        84 23  8
31.94 NM Crocker, Darren  81 Dwyer, David        72 23  8
32.43 Ha Condon, Anthony 102 Taylor, Richard B.  74 24  8
32.50 St Devonport, Craig 94 Dwyer, Mick         80 26 10
35.19 Ca Glascott, David 134 Hanna, Mil         108 38 10
35.71 Ha Abbott, Paul     85 Morrissey, James    84 30  9
35.71 WC Nicoski, Mark   100 Waters, Beau        84 30  8
36.25 Ge Brown, Paul      80 Graham, Ben         85 29  8
37.23 Ad Perrie, Ian      94 Stevens, Mark      101 35  8

The five year question will have to wait a little while.

 

[The Passenger]

Re: Post your stats questions here

cheers mate. as always great work.

can't believe some of those figures up the top. quite staggering.

obviously calthorpe and chris connolly where guys in and out the side a fair bit for whatever reasons.

funnily enough nicoski and beau waters never get bought up on our board as hardly playing together.

 

[RogersResults]

Re: Post your stats questions here

There's no question of the official position so that doesn't need confirmation... but the unvarnished reasoning would perhaps be enlightening, should they be so inclined to divulge it.

And to further muddy the waters, the Lions themselves seem to have a clear opinion
http://www.lions.com.au/Default.aspx?tabid=17429
except their stats section, which would've emanated form the AFL, contradicts their own stance.

Then there's this
http://www.lions.com.au/Default.aspx?tabid=5164
which counts BB games as BL games, but also Fitzroy games as BL games - but only for Fitzroy players who then went on to play for BL.

For those who never saw it, this from AFL 2000, may clarify some issues but then maybe not.

BRISBANE/FITZROY: In December. 1999. the AFL made a clear position on
statistics regarding the Brisbane Lions following the merger of the Brisbane Bears and Fitzroy. Players and coaches involved with both the Bears and the Lions will have their records classified as one set for Brisbane. In other words Marcus Ashcroft has played 222 premiership matches for the Brisbane (Bears and Lions), while Alastair Lynch has played 204 matches comprising 120 for Fitzroy and 84 for Brisbane (Bears and Lions). And it means those such as John Northey and Adrian Fletcher will be recorded as being involved at four clubs, not five. This position will also apply to match records (highest scores, lowest scores. club v club records etc) but because the decision was made close to printing deadlines for AFL 2000. we are unable to publish the detailed changes to those records. However they will be altered in AFL 2001.
The AFL's view is that Roger Merrett is the games record holder (164) for the Brisbane Bears and Kevin Murray (333) the games record holder for Fitzroy and those records will stand forever.

Michael Lovett, Editor.

Although the intention is to treat B.Bears and B.Lions as one entity for highest scores, lowest scores, club v club records etc, it seems too that for player records there exists a separate "Bear" category (in Merrett's case) for those whose career with Brisbane didn't go beyond 1996.

Recent editions of the AFL Record Season Guide include Merrett in the list of most games played, but make no mention of them being "Bear" games.

A query to the Brisbane Lions Media Dept. about the policy regarding presentation of records on the web site bounced with "address not found".

 

[*Paul*]

Re: Post your stats questions here

By 2005 they've amended it to Marcus Ashcroft having the "record that will stand forever", which I don't think they actually mean.

In Brisbane's section they say the club formed "December 1986" which is a clear contradiction in how the club sees it. They then say that "Joined the AFL: Lions 1997, Bears 1987" thereby accepting the two different entities. Then to top it off, their Premierships won tally is 11, they include Fitzroy's 8.

All in all a chequered history in trying to shoehorn it all to together.

 

[RogersResults]

Re: Post your stats questions here

By 2005 they've amended it to Marcus Ashcroft having the "record that will stand forever", which I don't think they actually mean.

In Brisbane's section they say the club formed "December 1986" which is a clear contradiction in how the club sees it. They then say that "Joined the AFL: Lions 1997, Bears 1987" thereby accepting the two different entities. Then to top it off, their Premierships won tally is 11, they include Fitzroy's 8.

All in all a chequered history in trying to shoehorn it all to together.

I missed where they claim 11 Premierships for Brisbane!
(If possible could you provide a link to the page where they have that?)

Maybe its time to sic the AFL Record police onto them?

 

[*Paul*]

Re: Post your stats questions here

http://stats.rleague.com/public/afl2005p44.jpg

 

[The Passenger]

Re: Post your stats questions here

to me it seems silly that the official records would seperate brisbane bears from brisbane lions.

they are so closely linked that they are essentially one club.

for me personally i view them as the same club.

and i see fitzroy ending (in a VFL/AFL sense) ending in 1996 with by being absorbed into the brisbane football club. with brisbane having the responsibility to honour the history of the fitzroy lions but without actually having the right to claim that history.

 

[RogersResults]

Re: Post your stats questions here

http://stats.rleague.com/public/afl2005p44.jpg

I thought you meant they had it currently on their website somewhere.
(Would have been extra cheeky.)

More recent Season Guides have reduced Brisbane back to 3 Premierships and have the 8 that Fitzroy won, just in a stand-alone section.

I wonder what went on behind the scenes with that?

Lets hope in the future we have just extinctions, re-locations and brand-name changes - no more "mergers".

 

[*Paul*]

Re: Post your stats questions here

Or at least nominally equal partners. Wests Tigers in the NRL has worked out OK, there's seemingly no factions that see them still as either Balmain or Wests. Whereas many St George Illawarra fans and other parties still think they're St George.

And as a contrast, official records do reflect the merger status of these "joint ventures". Wests Tigers have one title, not 11+4+1 etc.

 

[Roylion]

Re: Post your stats questions here

The Brisbane Bears / Lions and Fitzroy are two separate clubs, so the records should read as follows.

Brisbane Bears / Lions 1987-2011: 3 Premierships 2001-2002-2003, 3 Brownlows: Michael Voss 1996, Jason Akermanis 2001, Simon Black 2002.

Fitzroy 1897-1996: 8 premierships 1898, 1899, 1904, 1905 1913, 1916, 1922, 1944. 8 Brownlows: Haydn Bunton 1931, 1932, 1935, Wilfred 'Chicken' Smallhorn 1933, Dinny Ryan 1936, Allan Ruthven 1950, Kevin Murray 1969, Bernie Quinlan 1981.

 

[red+black]

Re: Post your stats questions here

^ makes sense to me

 

[*Paul*]

Re: Post your stats questions here

That could be summarised as "there was no merger", which differs from mine and the Lions'
(http://www.lions.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/5085/newsid/117789/default.aspx)
and sometimes, sometimes not, the AFL's position.

Here's some more oddity to add to the mix. Not necessarily the AFL's position, but nonetheless on the official AFL site.

"Brown's performance saw him become the merged club's greatest goalkicker, overtaking former teammate Daniel Bradshaw's tally of 496 by two.

Brown also moved into fourth position on the club's all-time goalkicking list behind Alastair Lynch (633 goals with Fitzroy, the Bears and the Lions), Jack Moriarty (626 goals with Fitzroy) and Bernie Quinlan (576 goals with Fitzroy)."

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/118157/default.aspx

 

[Roylion]

Re: Post your stats questions here

That could be summarised as "there was no merger", which differs from mine and the Lions'
(http://www.lions.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/5085/newsid/117789/default.aspx)
and sometimes, sometimes not, the AFL's position.

Fitzroy Football Club still legally exists and separately from the Brisbane Lions, which legally is the same club as the Brisbane Bears. So by law there was no merger and that was demonstrated very clearly in last year's Supreme Court action where Fitzroy (one legal entity) took the Brisbane Lions (another legal entity) to court. What occurred in 1996 was the incorporation of Fitzroy's AFL club operations into that of the Brisbane Bears.

Here's some more oddity to add to the mix. Not necessarily the AFL's position, but nonetheless on the official AFL site.

"Brown's performance saw him become the merged club's greatest goalkicker, overtaking former teammate Daniel Bradshaw's tally of 496 by two.

Brown also moved into fourth position on the club's all-time goalkicking list behind Alastair Lynch (633 goals with Fitzroy, the Bears and the Lions), Jack Moriarty (626 goals with Fitzroy) and Bernie Quinlan (576 goals with Fitzroy)."

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/118157/default.aspx

It is correct that Jonathan Brown is the Lions greatest goalkicker with 498 goals. Daniel Bradshaw is second with 496

The anomaly arrives where Fitzroy or Bears players scored goals against the Brisbane Bears or Fitzroy and then played for the Brisbane Lions. AFL statisticians therefore have taken the view that the records of Brisbane and Fitzroy should be separate.

So Alistair Lynch kicked 460 goals for the Brisbane Bears / Lions and 173 goals for Fitzroy.

How would you classify for example the 21 goals and 14 behinds he kicked for Fitzroy against the Brisbane Bears between 1988 and 1993?

Lynch's games for Fitzroy against the Brisbane Bears were:
1988 - Round 6 - Kicked 4.1
1989 - Round 21 - Kicked 2.0
1990 - Round 2 - Kicked 0.5
1990 - Round 15 - Kicked 5.2
1991 - Round 16 - Kicked 2.1
1992 - Round 3 - Kicked 0.0
1992 - Round 18 - Kicked 1.1
1993 - Round 6 - Kicked 0.0
1993 - Round 21 - Kicked 7.4

Lynch played no games for the Bears against Fitzroy between 1994 and 1996.

The question is how should these games be treated? Was Lynch kicking goals against his own club or a different club?

 

[RogersResults]

Re: Post your stats questions here

Fitzroy Football Club still legally exists and separately from the Brisbane Lions, which legally is the same club as the Brisbane Bears. So by law there was no merger and that was demonstrated very clearly in last year's Supreme Court action where Fitzroy (one legal entity) took the Brisbane Lions (another legal entity) to court. What occurred in 1996 was the incorporation of Fitzroy's AFL club operations into that of the Brisbane Bears.



It is correct that Jonathan Brown is the Lions greatest goalkicker with 498 goals. Daniel Bradshaw is second with 496

The anomaly arrives where Fitzroy or Bears players scored goals against the Brisbane Bears or Fitzroy and then played for the Brisbane Lions. AFL statisticians therefore have taken the view that

So Alistair Lynch kicked 460 goals for the Brisbane Bears / Lions and 173 goals for Fitzroy.

How would you classify for example the 21 goals and 14 behinds he kicked for Fitzroy against the Brisbane Bears between 1988 and 1993?

Lynch's games for Fitzroy against the Brisbane Bears were:
1988 - Round 6 - Kicked 4.1
1989 - Round 21 - Kicked 2.0
1990 - Round 2 - Kicked 0.5
1990 - Round 15 - Kicked 5.2
1991 - Round 16 - Kicked 2.1
1992 - Round 3 - Kicked 0.0
1992 - Round 18 - Kicked 1.1
1993 - Round 6 - Kicked 0.0
1993 - Round 21 - Kicked 7.4

Lynch played no games for the Bears against Fitzroy between 1994 and 1996.

The question is how should these games be treated? Was Lynch kicking goals against his own club or a different club?

Write to
Sam Lord
Media & Editorial Co-ordinator
Brisbane Lions AFC

P. 03 8850 5602 F. 03 8850 5611
M. 0415 599 604
E. SLord@lions.com.au

For the answers.

 

[*Paul*]

Re: Post your stats questions here

So by law there was no merger

Fitzroy seemed happy with the status of "merged", and the legal agreements appear to specifically call it that.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport...-court-over-logo/story-e6frepj6-1225808804758

How would you classify for example the 21 goals and 14 behinds he kicked for Fitzroy against the Brisbane Bears between 1988 and 1993?

Lynch kicked 173 for Fitz., 89 for BB, and 371 for BL.

 

[GuzzLG]

Re: Post your stats questions here

Not sure if these stats are out there or how far back they go but what is the least amount a side has trailed by at ANY stage in a particular game throughout an entire season. Collingwood was about 30-odd down against the Crows this year. Can't remember Essendon ever being down by too much in the 2000 season also.

 

[Roylion]

Re: Post your stats questions here

Fitzroy seemed happy with the status of "merged", and the legal agreements appear to specifically call it that.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport...-court-over-logo/story-e6frepj6-1225808804758

Can I point out that the Deed of Company Arrangement mentioned was signed by Michael Brennan (Administrator of Fitzroy) and the Brisbane Bears only. The article suggests that the directors of Fitzroy ("Fitzroy") signed the merger agreement, possibly implying that they voluntarily entered into a "merger" of their club with the Bears. They did not.

and as for:
"7.2 (c) The logo of the "Merged Club" will be the Fitzroy lion logo in perpetuity."

The Deed of Arrangement states:
"Merged Club" means Brisbane Bears which will conduct the combined Club Operations of Fitzroy and Brisbane Bears following the Merger;"

In other words: "The logo of the "Brisbane Bears" will be the Fitzroy lion logo in perpetuity."

and:
Article 2: Except as provided in this Deed, nothing in this Deed will be construed or interpreted to mean that Brisbane Bears will assume any liability for the debts or obligations of Fitzroy or that the Brisbane Bears will have any input in the ongoing management of Fitzroy after the Merger Date.

Clearly Fitzroy and Brisbane are separate clubs, which influences how their stats. should be recorded.

Lynch kicked 173 for Fitz., 89 for BB, and 371 for BL.

Therefore Jack Moriarty remains Fitzroy's goalkicking record holder with 626 goals.

Jonathan Brown is the Brisbane Lions' greatest goalkicker.

 

[Roylion]

Re: Post your stats questions here

Write to
Sam Lord
Media & Editorial Co-ordinator
Brisbane Lions AFC

P. 03 8850 5602 F. 03 8850 5611
M. 0415 599 604
E. SLord@lions.com.au

For the answers.

Ahhh...yeah.... thanks. I know Sam Lord and I'm well aware of how the Lions record their club statistics.

 

[*Paul*]

Re: Post your stats questions here

Clearly Fitzroy and Brisbane are separate clubs, which influences how their stats. should be recorded.

Therefore Jack Moriarty remains Fitzroy's goalkicking record holder with 626 goals.

Jonathan Brown is the Brisbane Lions' greatest goalkicker.

No arguments on any of these.

In the spirit of agree to disagree, I've seen enough evidence to suggest a merger (albeit a little lopsided) actually happened, and my stats will reflect that merger i.e. the Brisbane Bears and Fitzroy Lions ceased to field teams in the AFL, and a new AFL team was formed to represent both Clubs in the AFL.

After all, I'm just an internet nobody, I can be safely ignored if one so chooses to do so.

 

[*Paul*]

Re: Post your stats questions here

Not sure if these stats are out there or how far back they go but what is the least amount a side has trailed by at ANY stage in a particular game throughout an entire season. Collingwood was about 30-odd down against the Crows this year. Can't remember Essendon ever being down by too much in the 2000 season also.

Just going by quarter scores, which is really the only data usable, Essendon trailed Coll. by 18 pts in R22, 2000.

This is fifth best, with Essendon of 1911 trailing by 14 at half time in R1, their biggest deficit.

 

[RogersResults]

Re: Post your stats questions here

Not sure if these stats are out there or how far back they go but what is the least amount a side has trailed by at ANY stage in a particular game throughout an entire season. Collingwood was about 30-odd down against the Crows this year. Can't remember Essendon ever being down by too much in the 2000 season also.

If by "ANY stage" you mean the at any point part way through a quarter then these records are not very deep. Only recently has their been things like the AFL Game Analyser which have documented progressive scores within quarters. Nearly all VFL/AFL score records exist only as end of quarter scores.

Essendon in 2000 had their biggest end of quarter deficit at half time v Collingwood round 22 - 18 points.

Essendon in 1911 had their biggest end of quarter deficit at half time v Carlton round 1 - 14 points.

I suspect Essendon 1911 is the lowest.

(Collingwood 2011 was down 30 points at 1/2 time v Adelaide.)