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We get it.
You want Liddle sacked!
Opinion Stephen Silvagni
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We get it.
You want Liddle sacked!
Now that it's been pointed out I reckon i can see a bit of a trend.
ITCHY EYEBALLS
I see you watching me watching you
JustaBattler
Everyone Looks Better In Blue
- May 31, 2012
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I agree a case can be made to make Liddle look pretty bad - a good case actually...
however
I reckon people are forgetting just how diabolically bad things must have looked from the inside as Bolton coaching was delivering a 1-10 start to 2019 - a year in which most expected to see the start of some kind of rise...it wasn't just Bolton under scrutiny - SOS was under the pump too.
Marchbank/Cuningham/Williamson/Charlie injured a lot and off the field meanwhile McGovern looking like he came out of the fat farm to pretend to be an elite forward for ten minutes a game...Bug threw the towel in after he was signed , Garlett was a bust , Fasolo actually busted his arm mucking around with Charlie in pre-season, Pickett gone, Fisher, LoB and Dow under performing ...lots of finger pointing going on about quality of list - I'd imagine...
Hence the List management dept under review at end of year comments from Liddle.
Bolton's recent comments about maybe coaching for more wins and less about the future included reference to perhaps some fault in not getting some experienced players in....even though money was there...
An argument can be made that maybe SOS's approach was at the margin too long term focussed for pragmatists whose KPI's were measured in shorter terms or coaches whose career was at risk.
Teaguey managed to get a lot of pressure released by getting some wins up - truth is that quite a few players have to be able to lift significantly from here to sustain improvements. I reckon Liddle and Lloyd weren't willing to bet their futures on a system which was apparently delivering under performance - they probably felt and feel obliged to act in their capacity as Football Manager and CEO to intercede and change things up.
I think chasing Coniglio, Papley, Martin and looking to plug the small forward holes were agreed strategies - the Ellis thing would have been seen as a free hit in terms of picks - the cash was there.
This agreed strategy could have delivered Coniglio/Papley and Martin as well as Pittonet/Newnes - draft night would have been boring though.
In the end we got Betts/Martin for nothing in picks - a potential top5 pick who has done his achilles in Kemp - and a couple of interesting developing kids.
I reckon the best the Club can do is find an extremely good negotiator who understands the requirements of keeping salary cap under control and a balanced list going forward - he wont be allowed total discretion in selections of trade targets or the draft - the days of green shoots and patience are over.
I reckon the Club did the right thing on balance - despite the romance and maybe joy of SOS staying or leaving under his own terms being lost to supporters.
The manner in which all this was handled is what sticks in the throat - more than the actual decision itself.
OldBlueFan
Premiership Player
- Sep 23, 2009
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A rather obtuse position to take. I think the point was that based on the assumption that SOS is very good at what he does, if he goes to another club and manages to poach one or two key players from Carlton, then the decision to get rid of him is going to look pretty ordinary. And given that it's got Liddle's fingerprints all over it, such an eventuality will reflect poorly on him. Even more so if SOS's replacement isn't much good.
You mean the cash that was earmarked for Coniglio, Papley and Martin? I'm tippin' if we'd got Ellis, then at least one of those would have been unobatainable with the remaining cap space - it might have even only been Coniglio plus one of Papley or Martin. Ellis didn't fit any "strategy" at all for Carlton, it would have been a knee-jerk move at best.
I think that's what makes these events so galling. That the chasing of such a nothing player - in the scheme of things for our club - has had a role to play in the departure of a very good operator.
Carlton supporters:
6 months ago: SOS has left Bolton exposed, the recycled players he has brought in are no good.
Now: how could we let SOS go!
I am not bothered at all to be honest, Liddle has performed exceptionally well since coming over and I have full faith in his decision making.
The role of a CEO is to execute on a boards vision. Our vision is premierships, Liddle is responsible to deliver this. From bringing the right coach in, making sure our facilities are up to scratch, sponsors signed on and yes, recruiting and list management are firing. He absolutely should be getting involved in all areas including list management and for those saying he shouldn’t you clearly don’t understand the function of a CEO.
6 months ago: SOS has left Bolton exposed, the recycled players he has brought in are no good.
Now: how could we let SOS go!
I am not bothered at all to be honest, Liddle has performed exceptionally well since coming over and I have full faith in his decision making.
The role of a CEO is to execute on a boards vision. Our vision is premierships, Liddle is responsible to deliver this. From bringing the right coach in, making sure our facilities are up to scratch, sponsors signed on and yes, recruiting and list management are firing. He absolutely should be getting involved in all areas including list management and for those saying he shouldn’t you clearly don’t understand the function of a CEO.
Ricky Mott
Team Captain
- Jul 26, 2015
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The CEO toured Ellis through the club behind SOS back. That is sackable!!
The conflict is the CEO has gathered his mates and put them in positions that now he has control of and can’t be challenged. Bad move by the Carlton Board. The conflict lies right there. SOS challenged his boys club in the interest of Carlton members.
- Aug 22, 2014
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Ooooorrr...the other boys will get around them, and SOS himself will tell them to focus on their footy and not what he's doing for a crust.
- Aug 22, 2014
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Robertio
Spotswood Guinness Bar manager
Very well said. Ellis did not fit any strategy. Stick to the commercial stuff Liddle.
- Aug 22, 2014
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26yo, hard running outside mid with 2 flags under his belt who wouldn't have cost a draft pick.
Ellis was worth exploring.
For the salary he wanted (especially given what GC were happy to pay), the right decision was ultimately made.
Went a "budget" option in Newnes not long after.
Gethelred
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- May 1, 2016
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The difference in opinion between Ellis prior to the flags - of which his performance across both years you can take or leave - is astounding.
Bloke's a chip scab, but unlike the rest of Richmonds seagulls he's reluctant to lay a tackle, which is why they were content to let him leave. He could be the best clubman around, but he isn't really a massive upgrade on Newnes if he is at all.
Jack Newnes and Brandon Ellis AFL Stats Comparison
Jack Newnes and Brandon Ellis AFL Stats Comparison.
www.footywire.com
4 possessions a game is roughly the difference between the two, and given the difference in possession tallies between a running winger in a premiership side versus a HFF in a bottom 8 side, you begin to see why Ellis might average 4 possessions more. It has a marginal amount to do with price, either; Newnes is an indifferent pickup, IMO, given that we've got 7 potential wingers on the list currently (Setterfield, Murphy, LOB, Walsh, Fish, Gibbons, Martin) with a wide variety of skillsets and possible combinations. Competent backup at AFL average is not a bad thing, but Newnes had better be on the improve if he were to become a continuous option in our firsts.
The only thing he's got going for him is the fact that he's 26, albeit 27 at the beginning of next season; he has the time to improve and to develop.
Last edited:
- Aug 22, 2014
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Don't get me wrong, if I was picking between the two I'd be opting for Newnes as well.
Just highlighting that it's a bit rich to claim Ellis doesn't fit any strategy, when adding experienced players in their mid 20's who can run and have decent skills is exactly the strategy. I think the right decision was made, but that doesn't change the fact that he was absolutely worth having a few conversations with.
Gethelred
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See the edited post.
Worth a conversation? Sure. But Ellis has delusions of grandeur if he thought he would get us to pay him that. He's lucky to avoid Tyrone Vickery's fate with the two premiership medals around his neck making other clubs more willing to take a punt that he'll be a transformational player.
- Aug 22, 2014
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Yep - and again, not contesting that
I'm assuming that's a major part of why we opted not to recruit him. But it's something you don't know until you sit down at a table to talk figures.
The stuff with Ellis seems to keep getting blown way out of proportion. He was a perfectly reasonable player to be having preliminary chats with this off season, and in the end his contract expectations were too rich for what he offered and we walked away. Protocols and correct channels aside, of course.
Gethelred
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The stuff with Ellis is being blown out of proportion because some people have decided that missing out on him was a bad thing, 'a premiership midfielder that averages 21 disposals a game', coupled with the SOS-Liddle thing.Yep - and again, not contesting that
I'm assuming that's a major part of why we opted not to recruit him. But it's something you don't know until you sit down at a table to talk figures.
The stuff with Ellis seems to keep getting blown way out of proportion. He was a perfectly reasonable player to be having preliminary chats with this off season, and in the end his contract expectations were too rich for what he offered and we walked away. Protocols and correct channels aside, of course.
Barely anyone on here is actually upset that we missed out on him; more, they're upset that he was seemingly the catalyst which triggered SOS's departure. Never mind that Eddie was more likely to be the one, as we heard in the media and behind the scenes that SOS was being overruled by Lloyd and Teague, with Liddle's touring of Ellis being a little more than a footnote; no, we're going to ignore that and place the blame squarely on the Richmond connection (Liddle and Ellis) instead of the Carlton favourite.
meh, not worth exploring but I get many do not understand a proper list strategy for where we were at.
OldBlueFan
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With respect BB, this isn't a strategy, it's a general position. The strategic aims of our most recent trade/draft period are pretty obvious (and fit what most supporters were crying out for here).
A) another quality mature midfielder (to complement Cripps)
B) a small pressure forward
C) a small crumbing forward
D) competent back-up/succession for MK
These are the strategic moves that our club needed to make, given the list that had already been assembled and what was missing. Which of those strategic components does Ellis fill? Further to that, there is already a considerable amount of good-disposal outside run on the list; Murphy, SPS, Fisher, LOB, Williamson, along with Martin obviously already on the radar. So again, strategically Ellis made little sense.
The club has to win/achieve something before we can state categorically that SOS was good at his job.
So we won't know that for a few years yet.
iAsbestos
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- Nov 22, 2019
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Bloke has a point though.
Good post but missed one spot. Still believe we need to develop or find a quick small defender to play on the opposition small goal sneaks. However, usually what happens in someone drafted as a small midfielder or small forward ends up finding their role their over time. It is not a high priority but no one as yet specifically fits that role for team for next decade to come.
- Aug 22, 2014
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Which strategic components does it fill?
Further balances the age profile.
Adds another player with strong endurance who can run out games.
Adds a player with lots of finals experience.
Demonstrable positives. And again, I'm glad we turned him away and went the Newnes option instead, because yes, we do have kids coming through who can and should take that position sooner rather than later. Murphy's into his 30s, SPS has been moved down back, Fisher was dropped into the forward line and is better used on the ball than on a wing, Williamson is only just getting his body right (touch wood), Martin wasn't here yet and is a positional wildcard (more likely to be used forward of the ball, it seems). Of those you listed, LOB is the closest we've got to a "safe" medium/longterm winger and even he isn't a sure thing.
That we signed Newnes tell me that someone like Ellis should have been firmly on our radar. But once again, because I have to keep adding this caveat, I'm glad we went a different path in Newnes given the specifics. Just saying that questioning us meeting with Ellis is unfair.
