Opinion Stephen Silvagni

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footyfan78 said:
Good post but missed one spot. Still believe we need to develop or find a quick small defender to play on the opposition small goal sneaks. However, usually what happens in someone drafted as a small midfielder or small forward ends up finding their role their over time. It is not a high priority but no one as yet specifically fits that role for team for next decade to come.
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Got any thoughts on who, of our current crop, could/should make the transition? Almost feel like it could be an area we'd look to utilise Gibbons if a few other blokes develop well enough through the middle of the ground.
 

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Blue__Balls said:
Got any thoughts on who, of our current crop, could/should make the transition? Almost feel like it could be an area we'd look to utilise Gibbons if a few other blokes develop well enough through the middle of the ground.
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Polson needs to find a role....
Small enough, quick enough.

I also think most of the guys we drafted after Kemp were fairly quick and will have an uphill battle finding a role in our expected strong midfield in coming years, so would not surprise me if a Philp, Ramsay or Honey ended up there in a few years. But as yet there is no one specifically set for that spot. In time we may just do a minor trade for one if no one from within the club develops there. I actually wanted us to look at Pina in the mid season rookie draft but he never got picked up. I see he did get picked up in the end of season rookie draft though. Think Fremantle grabbed him.
 
footyfan78 said:
Polson needs to find a role....
Small enough, quick enough.

I also think most of the guys we drafted after Kemp were fairly quick and will have an uphill battle find a role in our expected strong midfield in coming years, so would not surprise me if a Philp, Ramsay or Honey ended up there in a few years. But as yet there is no one specifically set for that spot. In time we may just do a minor trade for one if no one from within the club develops there.
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Polson looks like he should work, but I worry about his composure and disposal if he's being used in defensive transition. Fisher was another the popped into my head, but I'm still bullish on him in the middle and don't think he's got the ability to halve an aerial contest if he was forced to.

Will be interesting to see if one of those new draftees starts down back in the VFL this year, as you could be right that one of them might be earmarked for it.
 
Blue__Balls said:
Which strategic components does it fill?

Further balances the age profile.
Adds another player with strong endurance who can run out games.
Adds a player with lots of finals experience.

Demonstrable positives. And again, I'm glad we turned him away and went the Newnes option instead, because yes, we do have kids coming through who can and should take that position sooner rather than later. Murphy's into his 30s, SPS has been moved down back, Fisher was dropped into the forward line and is better used on the ball than on a wing, Williamson is only just getting his body right (touch wood), Martin wasn't here yet and is a positional wildcard (more likely to be used forward of the ball, it seems). Of those you listed, LOB is the closest we've got to a "safe" medium/longterm winger and even he isn't a sure thing.

That we signed Newnes tell me that someone like Ellis should have been firmly on our radar. But once again, because I have to keep adding this caveat, I'm glad we went a different path in Newnes given the specifics. Just saying that questioning us meeting with Ellis is unfair.
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Sigh. My question was "which of those strategic componenets does he fill?". And as you've confirmed with your reply, the answer is obviously "none".

You've just restated objectives that should be the mainstay of any list management team, not what was strategically important at Carlton in 2019.

Let's just agree that we have differing ideas of what is meant by strategy.
 
OldBlueFan said:
Sigh. My question was "which of those strategic componenets does he fill?". And as you've confirmed with your reply, the answer is obviously "none".

You've just restated objectives that should be the mainstay of any list management team, not what was strategically important at Carlton in 2019.

Let's just agree that we have differing ideas of what is meant by strategy.
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Sigh all you like.

Balancing the age profile, targeting players who can run all day, and adding valuable experience to the list is "strategic direction".

Inidividual "players" that you've decided to list aren't "strategies". They're acquisitions that need to fit in with the established strategic goals.

I could be the w***er who posts a definition of strategy, but I won't. I'll just be the w***er who points that out ;)
 
CarltonFan said:
Carlton supporters:
6 months ago: SOS has left Bolton exposed, the recycled players he has brought in are no good.
Now: how could we let SOS go!

I am not bothered at all to be honest, Liddle has performed exceptionally well since coming over and I have full faith in his decision making.
The role of a CEO is to execute on a boards vision. Our vision is premierships, Liddle is responsible to deliver this. From bringing the right coach in, making sure our facilities are up to scratch, sponsors signed on and yes, recruiting and list management are firing. He absolutely should be getting involved in all areas including list management and for those saying he shouldn’t you clearly don’t understand the function of a CEO.
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But chasing players and giving them a tour behind the GM of List Management's back is definitely not on...that isn't even a debate. A big part of a CEO's job at any company is providing leadership/direction and fostering a good work culture, so in that particular regard with the friction he's caused he hasn't done well. The financials appear to be really good though, the marketing and member engagement has picked up - which are areas overseen by the CEO.

I don't think what you said is true that CEO's should be getting involved in list management though...i don't think CEO's at other clubs do. It's why you have a Football Department.
 
Blue__Balls said:
Balancing the age profile, targeting players who can run all day, and adding valuable experience to the list is "strategic direction" common sense.
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If there is such a thing as being too successful, imo SOS fits that bill.

First, he is eponymously the son of a legend of the Club.

Secondly he is a legend of the Club in his own right, twice attaining the highest honour that can be bestowed on a player - member of a premiership side.

Thirdly, he has become an accomplished List Manager, prepared to think strategically to create a list that will give our coach unique player resources from which the coach (Teague or whoever) should be able to develop flag-winning game plans for the next decade.

Fourthly, he is the father of 2 current players and a possible third in the future.

SOS is, to put it simply, too successful.

The problem his success causes is obvious. He is inevitably compromised as the List Manager having his own children on the List. Those who do not recognise the conflict of interest should imagine themselves in SOS's position and having to tell Jack or Ben (or both) that they had no future at the Club. Or worse, imagine themselves being in SOS's position, keeping the sons on the List and have them both running around all year for the NBs.

To win a flag a Club has to be professional at every level. Part of that professionalism is to allow, properly, for sentiment in football. So, an extra year for a beloved player, greater leniency to the son of a Club champion, extending the hand of fellowship to an ex-player fallen on hard times, are important ways the Club can and should portray itself.

But sentiment must have only its proper place. So SOS must go. That way coaching/recruiting staff can, without fear of retribution, openly discuss the merits of SOJ, Ben and Tom and make the professional decision in respect of their futures at the Club.

So thank you SOS for your recent endeavours as our list manager. I have not agreed with all your recruiting decisions but I have agreed with your list building strategy. I think the Blues are in a much, much stronger position than we would have been in but for that strategical thinking. I expect the footy world, blinded by the slow progress necessitated by the rebuild, to waken up pretty soon. I predict finals next year and know that SOS has helped that happen.
 

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BlueJet said:
The club that has often been accused of having an unbalanced list and ultimately underachieved despite an unprecedented gift of draft picks?
His best work to date has been with Carlton given the hand that he was dealt with both clubs.
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Those accusers are morons.
The Giants have had a shocking run of injuries, and there are certainly questions over the way that they have been coached.
But the list? Compare them to the Suns.
 
Stamos said:
You're kidding, aren't you?
He set up a list that went prelim - prelim - semi - grand final.
And they're still following the list management strategy that he set up.
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He picked a bunch of players with high picks and academy selections.

Who is the best player on their list that they didn't use a first round pick to draft?
 
OldBlueFan said:
Balancing the age profile, targeting players who can run all day, and adding valuable experience to the list is "strategic direction" common sense.
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What's your point? Strategy should be illogical and complex?

If you're not going to engage in an actual conversation about it, that's fine, just say so and we can move on :rolleyes:
 
Stamos said:
Those accusers are morons.
The Giants have had a shocking run of injuries, and there are certainly questions over the way that they have been coached.
But the list? Compare them to the Suns.
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Comparing them to the diabolical mess that is the Suns does little to highlight the strength of their list & labelling another perspective "moronic" simply because you disagree isn't great either.
Watch the Giants come finals time and it becomes abundantly clear why they have a well earned reputation as underachievers or frontrunners, this falls into the recruiting/list management domain just as much as it does the coaching one.
 
BlueJet said:
Comparing them to the diabolical mess that is the Suns does little to highlight the strength of their list & labelling another perspective "moronic" simply because you disagree isn't great either.
Watch the Giants come finals time and it becomes abundantly clear why they have a well earned reputation as underachievers or frontrunners, this falls into the recruiting/list management domain just as much as it does the coaching one.
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You mean the 3 finals they just won while missing the likes of Coniglio, Ward, Whitfield...
 
Blue__Balls said:
What's your point? Strategy should be illogical and complex?

If you're not going to engage in an actual conversation about it, that's fine, just say so and we can move on :rolleyes:
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What I'm saying is that the principles that you're citing as "strategy", are what I would characterise as "list management 101".

I asked you to point out how the recruitment of Ellis fit into OUR strategy in terms of where our list is at, and what were widely acknowledged as our needs. You never even bothered to try to address that, so it's a bit rich coming back now with "If you're not going to engage in an actual conversation".
 
Stamos said:
You mean the 3 finals they just won while missing the likes of Coniglio, Ward, Whitfield...
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We're conveniently attributing that to a former list manager rather than coaching or the incumbent list management team, GWS is the same club that has managed to melt as soon as the heat goes up and they quickly go from the bully into the bullied.
The unprecedented nature of the handouts given to GWS makes it hard to gauge SOS' performance up there as you can hardly fault someone for drafting Kelly, Cogs etc but conversely, given the number of picks given to them, perhaps SOS was also inclined to take a greater number of risks.
A better reflection of SOS as a list manager will be known in coming years once SPS, Curnow Dow etc begin to realise their potentials IMO - until then any claims of his greatness/failings are very much premature.
 
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BlueJet said:
We're conveniently attributing that to a former list manager rather than coaching or the incumbent list management team, GWS is the same club that has managed to melt as soon as the heat goes up and they quickly go from the bully into the bullied.
The unprecedented nature of the handouts given to GWS makes it hard to gauge SOS' performance up there as you can hardly fault someone for drafting Kelly, Cogs etc but conversely, given the number of picks given to them, perhaps SOS was also inclined to take a greater number of risks.
A better reflection of SOS as a list manager will be known in coming years once SPS, Curnow Dow etc begin to realise their potentials IMO - until then any claims of his greatness/failings are very much premature.
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Gold Coast Suns.
Very similar picks/concessions.
One year longer in the comp, still haven't made finals.
 

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Opinion Stephen Silvagni

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