The AFL world owes Geelong & St Kilda alot

[jswan]

Let's not disrespect the Saints game style. Sure they like to lock it in and strangle their opponents more than the Cats do, but they can and do pile on goals when the moment is right.

OK, I will try to explain the difference between the saints of 2009 gamestyle to the swans of 2003-2007 gamestyle, which I believe to not to be any different anyway.

When the swans were up and about, they would win a lot of games by playing a defensive game style, restricting many teams to just 8-9 goals for the game, but kicking 12-13 goals themselves for a 3-4 goal win. I have seen countless games where this has happened.

What do we see this year with saints. They also restrict many teams to 8-9 goals a game, but they pile on 17-18 goals themselves for a 8-10 goal victory.

The difference is not in the game style, but the players executing the exact same game style. The saints team is chock full of very high draft picks executing this game style...Riewoldt, Hayes, Goddard, Del Santo, Koschistske etc etc, the swans of 03-07 didnt have players like this, the only exception to the rule might have Adam Goodes( I know he's not a high draft pick, but name me one player in the 1997 draft that went before him thats better than him) So with one team, you have all these middle of the road draft pick players(the swans) executing this game style for a gritty 3-4 goal win, and on the hand, you have a team chock full of high draft picks and class players(the saints) executing this game style for comfortable 8-10 goal wins. The same game style executed by a better class of players. Now there were certain games in the swans' 03-08 era where the players executed that game style 'perfectly' for some absolute thumpings of the opposition, there was a game against the tigers at Etihad in 06 that rings a bell, also thumped Carlton a few times as well, nothing wrong with the game style when this happens, but the beauty of it is, that even when your not on song, or the opposition is causing you some problems by playing good football, you can still grind out a victory....Swans vs Geelong, 2005 semi final, and most of the games between swans and West coast of that time.

As I said earlier, the saints play the same way, just got better players to execute that game style. Oh and another thing, I've also heard that when Ross Lyon was being interviewed for the saints job a few years ago, when asked what he would bring to the table if chosen to be coach of the saints, Ross' reply was something like..."the swans game style, but on steroids". Think about that.

 

[legend166]

Footy is at its best when there are multiple gameplans going around.

Those who want to pigeonhole football into the one style are morons.

 

[Astrix]

I would bet several cash bills if it had been two interstate teams the GF would have been a "scrappy slog", but because we have two vic teams playing we had ourselves "an enthralling, memorable contest!!!". Probably from the same numpties who think 07 was better to watch than 06 or 05, yes people really do say that.

I had idiots around me saying that a game which was won by 12 points and a scrap was 100x better than a 1 point GF in which one side never gave up and almost won back to back.

Victorians are seriously dumb or they just have this unhealthy hatred for anything non victorian. Such a provincial and antiquated way of thinking.

 

[Clay Davis]

Enjoying school holidays, Astrix?

 

[Astrix]

yawn.

 

[Violent Stool]

Yeah its your typical stupid melbourne bias. The sad thing is that the same stupid thought process is then repeated by hordes of nuffies at games.

I had one stupid St Kilda fan telling me in no uncertain terms how much Sydneys flood was destroying football and that the afl should get rid of sydney.

I then pointed out that

a) the real matsermind behind the defensive gameplan was in fact one St Kilda coach

b) that footy has always been played man on man except that these days the skills of the players are so superior to those in the past that it makes the man on man style look boring compared to 5 handballs going to sideways to only go forward once stye that Geelong play.

he didn't know what to say.

A lot of it stems from the melbourne media blowing its own trumpet and encouraging this vast hatred towards interstate sides. Speak to a normal victorian based nuffy about interstate sides and watch as they glow in red and spew out profanities about interstate sides. Ask them why there is so much hate and the response usually is "Cause they suck awight" which to me, shows that 80% of the victorian football public takes what the Herald Sun has to say as gospel.

Well, what was intended as a big pat on the back for the Geelong Football Club and the St Kilda Football club has been perceived as as swipe at Sydney.

This was not the intention.

Sydney's game plan was built on all over the ground defence. Not a 'flood' as such, but more focussed on stopping them getting clean ball and space in the first place.

Fine. Makes sense.

The problem was the the cheap imitations didn't understand that Sydney were a very talented team that could score well too when they needed/wanted to.

The cheap imitations left this part out, and left us with a trend that had packs of 30 footballers chasing the nut around, and kicking backwards and sideways when they actually got it because they hadn't considered actually scoring themselves.


I have no issue with what Sydney did.

However, I love the fact that Geelong came out with a brand of footy that in some people's eyes was considered obsolete. They taken the 'take risks and attack at all costs' style of play and stuck with it. It has now made them one of the best ever.

It's made other coaches realise that offence, flair and risk taking does work. It's made the footy enjoyable to sit through again.

 

[Hoops]

The difference between St kilda and the Swans is that the Saints are prepared to take risks, Maybe thay have the cattle that allows them, but The Swans would hold up the ball at every opurtunity

 

[Furious_G]

yes with record crowds the game was going downhill fast.

I always hate the 'record crowds' argument. Is it growing any faster than population growth? I'm not sure, but would like to see table comparing crowd growth, TV viewers and population as a percentage, year on year.

 

[Astrix]

The whole numbers are up excuse has become boring and tiring and has major flaws. The record crowds are only happening in victoria. The AFL through some smart corporate nous and clever marketing has put the avg supporter in the corner and told them to pay up or else their club is dead.

How many football supporters would actually bother to follow the code if their team had been folded?

 

[DaveBond21]

While we are talking about the Grand Final, can anyone tell me who sings the song "Julia", that Julia Gillard walked out to at the North Melbourne Grand Final breakfast? Thanks.

 

[legend166]

While we are talking about the Grand Final, can anyone tell me who sings the song "Julia", that Julia Gillard walked out to at the North Melbourne Grand Final breakfast? Thanks.

I didn't see the breakfast, but The Beatles have a song called Julia.

 

[Jonno_]

Why don't you change your team from Unlisted to St Kilda. You made about 3 Riewoldt is not a diver threads and you are asking us to thank Geelong (yep) and St Kilda (nope). St Kilda = a slightly more attractive Sydney 06. They played 'anti-football'.

 

[CambridgeOxford]

Agree that the attacking game is the superior syle in AFL (which was designed deliberately to be an all out attack sport), and that Geelong play an attractive brand of footy, but a flag is a flag. Sydney were the best team in 2005. IMO the 2009 GF was tough but basically devoid of highlights and would be hard for most AFL fans to watch again. People seem to have very short memories. Anyone remember Brisbane? That side played hard tough attacking footy straight down the guts at every opportunity and was IMO better than Geelong and has the record to prove it. To win 3 flags in a row was amazing with only Port playing an incredibly fast, aggressive and skilful style able to stop them winning a fourth. The petty Vic media downplayed all the non-Vic flags. In time people will look back and acknowledge how good, Brissy, Port, Sydney and WC were.

 

[EagleMan87]

If we're thanking Geelong then we may as well thank West Coast, considering Bomber Thompson derived his own style from our handball-happy days

 

[Valve Bounce]

yes with record crowds the game was going downhill fast.

Yeah!! people were walking into the Grand Final after being given tickets by disgruntled supporters.

Thank God! Geelong came along and saved our world!

 

[Quinz]

Thank god for Geelong.

Only 3 years ago the AFL was doomed. Teams copying the Sydney style of footy was crippling the comp.

Three years ago, we won a flag using a run and carry style of play that Geelong copied.

The game is always changing, teams attempt to copy whoever won the flag that season, until a new gameplan come along that works well against it, then everyone wants to try that.

 

[jpdixon]

God this has been a pet hate of mine for years now. Memo to anyone out there....EVERY TEAM IN THE AFL COMPETITION FLOODS!!!!!.

Especially when they're playing Sydney. Sydney might have started the trend (Violent Stool explains how it happened pretty well), but they don't seem to be able to cope when its done to them. Quite a few teams have realised this, so there ends up being more flooding in Sydney games than in general. Funny how some commentators haven't noticed that it's usually being done by the opposition.

 

[BK Eaglesfan]

Geelong and St Kilda played an entertaining GF, and deserved to be recognised as he top two sides in the country in 2009. But to claim their style of football will change AFL etc and bring relief from flooding etc is over simplifying things.

The Eagles changed their gameplan late 2006 and won the flag, incorporating a much higher handball count. Geelong have elements of this. The Eagles also steadfastly refused to play loose men back then, probably costing us a final in 06' and certainly raising many queries around Worsfold's coaching.

Hawthorn's zone has been replicated in one way or another by several sides in 08'.

Sydney's 05 / 06 style was a perfect foil for the Eagles back then. The game plan kept it close, and then when they decided to attack for a short period they could pile on goals quickly and without much warning, goals that would then take a long period of time to break them down and get back. The Eagles generally had to dominate well over half a game to beat them as they could score so quickly in bursts. Difference between them and the Saints IMO is they would go into attack mode for shorter periods. Why? Perhaps because their midfield wasn't as good as some getting around, and while they were a great clearance team they couldn't win a prolonged offensive midfield battle.

I find the Bulldogs the most entertaining team in the comp. Will anyone copy their plan? Not likely as it's seen as suspect in finals and is a plan forced by personnel.

 

[The_Steadier]

The difference between St kilda and the Swans is that the Saints are prepared to take risks, Maybe thay have the cattle that allows them, but The Swans would hold up the ball at every opurtunity

Yes which resulted in Sydney having the 13th best attack in the comp in 05, as opposed the Saints 4th this year.

Im not saying this as a knock at Sydney- they won a flag, but as a knock to the simpletons who draw any comparison between Sydney 05 and Saints 09.

 

[Crow-mo]

I always hate the 'record crowds' argument. Is it growing any faster than population growth? I'm not sure, but would like to see table comparing crowd growth, TV viewers and population as a percentage, year on year.

choose any measure you like champ, go ahead show how the game has become less popular.

 

[DaveBond21]

I didn't see the breakfast, but The Beatles have a song called Julia.

No, it wasn't the Beatles song, and it wasn't Chris Rea's "Julia" either. Does anyone know anyone who watched it and might know?

 

[jswan]

Yes which resulted in Sydney having the 13th best attack in the comp in 05, as opposed the Saints 4th this year.

Im not saying this as a knock at Sydney- they won a flag, but as a knock to the simpletons who draw any comparison between Sydney 05 and Saints 09.

I hear what your saying, but with all due respect I have to disagree with what your saying here. This 'GAMEPLAN' that we are refering to here has 2 aspects to it, the offensive aspect(you have to have this otherwise you wont kick goals and shock horror, you wont win games), and a defensive aspect to it.

The swans of 03-07 mastered the defensive aspect of this gameplan, restricting many teams to low scores, but never mastered the offensive aspect of the gameplan, usually kicking just enough goals to win by 3-4 goals.

The saints of 2009 mastered the defensive aspect of the gameplan as we all saw this year, but they also mastered the offensive aspect of the gameplan, as we all saw, thus having a better 'points for' record compared to the swans.

Like I said earlier, their are a handful of games where the swans got everything right on the day and delivered some absolute thumpings to certain sides, but never as consistently as the saints of this year and for year(s) to come. The main reason for this is the QUALITY of the cattle Stkilda have on the park in comparison to the swans. Many high draft pick players compared to many middle of the road draft pick players.

 

[Furious_G]

choose any measure you like champ, go ahead show how the game has become less popular.

My point is that it isn't becoming more or less popular, just the amount of people that enjoy AFL as a percentage of the whole population is probably the same.

Based on the AFL Administrations track record of reporting stats, if that is what they are using to prove the popularity (and to show how 'good' a job they are doing) then I'm skeptical of it as a measure.

 

[FisherHawk]

While we are talking about the Grand Final, can anyone tell me who sings the song "Julia", that Julia Gillard walked out to at the North Melbourne Grand Final breakfast? Thanks.

Beatles, Lennon song of the White album.