The Association Football AFL Thread 3.0

[Jatz]

Best big game player I’ve seen in my 32 years. Phenomenal at his best.

 

[SM]

Dusty’s 300th this weekend. What a player. One of the absolute best to ever do it. Not many other players have provided their fans with as much happiness as Dusty brought us.

Is it his 300th? That's gone under the radar.

 

[Misher]

Is it his 300th? That's gone under the radar.

Leave your sarcasm at the door. Positive vibes only for the great man

 

[Misher]

Massive win from the Bears.

Neale such a consistent performer but doesn’t get the plaudits of Petracca, Cripps, Bont, etc.

Gaz reading my posts:

 

[gaskin]

Lachie isn't mentioned in the same breath because he spent half his career at Freo. He was just as good/if not better at Freo IMO but nobody over east cared about him when he was here.

 

[Misher]

Lachie isn't mentioned in the same breath because he spent half his career at Freo. He was just as good/if not better at Freo IMO but nobody over east cared about him when he was here.

No chance. Went to another level at Brisbane.

 

[gaskin]

No chance. Went to another level at Brisbane.

Disagree. It just seems like it because he became the big fish and wasn't overshadowed by Fyfe.

 

[UnitedWarrior93]

From memory he was super solid at Freo but I do feel like he elevated himself when he switched to Brisbane.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Lachie isn't mentioned in the same breath because he spent half his career at Freo. He was just as good/if not better at Freo IMO but nobody over east cared about him when he was here.

Agree with this. His Freo career had him in Fyfe's shadow but he's just as good at Freo as he's been at Brisbane.
Can't shake that when we look at Neale, Cripps and Bont that there's 3 combined Brownlow's and Marcus has 0.

If they were being drafted again today and I had pick 1 I'd pick Bontempelli without hesitation. Kicks more goals than both - almost combined - and has underrated ball use IMO.

 

[Kram]

Same.

The Bont is a freak.

 

[Misher]

Neale coaches votes finishes at Fremantle:
2013: not in the top 20 (Fyfe 10th)
2014: not in the top 20 (Fyfe 2nd)
2015: not in the top 20 (Fyfe 2nd)
2016: not in the top 20 (Fyfe not in the top 20)
2017: not in the top 20 (Fyfe not in the top 20)
2018: not in the top 20 (Fyfe 18th)

Neale coaches votes finishes at Brisbane:
2019: 7th
2020: 1st
2021: not in the top 20
2022: 3rd
2023: 5th
2024: 15th

So are we pretending all the coaches in the league have consistently got it wrong for the past 12 years?

The Fyfe narrative doesn’t really stack up either

 

[gaskin]

I don't really care what the coaches think. I'm going by what I see and I haven't seen anything different.

 

[Misher]

I don't really care what the coaches think. I'm going by what I see and I haven't seen anything different.

I guess it’s either all the coaches are wrong or you are. Good to know you back yourself in though

 

[gaskin]

I guess it’s either all the coaches are wrong or you are. Good to know you back yourself in though

Context is key.

2013-2015 were when we were good and he was in the infancy of his career. He was up against Fyfe, Mundy, and Barlow in the midfield taking votes. Positions in the midfield were also taken up by DeBoer, Mzungu, and Suban. He was also had a few sub appearances over the first couple of years. Pav up forward would have taken votes. Ross as the coach values players playing their role so Ballantyne, Walters, and Mayne would get votes. I would hazard a guess and say Sandilands, McPharlin, and Johnson would have got a few over that time as well. He was not at any point good enough at that stage of his career to be scoring high votes on the regular.

2016 onwards when he started to become a very good player we became shit and started losing every week. He is hardly going to get a high vote count in a team that was getting flogged on the regular. Amongst Freo supporters we could see how good he was but he never got the recognition for being good due to playing in Perth and the team being dog shit.

Top 20 in the coaches votes is also a bit misleading. You are essentially saying the best player at the club (he never was) or in the top 2-3 players in the best sides which he never was when we were good.

 

[Kram]

 

[Misher]

Context is key.

2013-2015 were when we were good and he was in the infancy of his career. He was up against Fyfe, Mundy, and Barlow in the midfield taking votes. Positions in the midfield were also taken up by DeBoer, Mzungu, and Suban. He was also had a few sub appearances over the first couple of years. Pav up forward would have taken votes. Ross as the coach values players playing their role so Ballantyne, Walters, and Mayne would get votes. I would hazard a guess and say Sandilands, McPharlin, and Johnson would have got a few over that time as well. He was not at any point good enough at that stage of his career to be scoring high votes on the regular.

2016 onwards when he started to become a very good player we became shit and started losing every week. He is hardly going to get a high vote count in a team that was getting flogged on the regular. Amongst Freo supporters we could see how good he was but he never got the recognition for being good due to playing in Perth and the team being dog shit.

Top 20 in the coaches votes is also a bit misleading. You are essentially saying the best player at the club (he never was) or in the top 2-3 players in the best sides which he never was when we were good.

So you’ve basically conceded on three years of his Fremantle career due to “infancy”. His 2016-2018 must’ve been absolutely exceptional if you’re arguing he was during that period better than what he has been at Brisbane. I also didn’t realise he was behind powerhouses like Nick Suban, Matt DeBoer and Tendai Mzungu. Really hard to displace such high quality players like that from midfield!

Players not being able to rack up votes in poor sides is also a myth, especially with coaches votes where they dish out thirty of them and often include eight players. Tim Kelly managed to sneak into the top twenty last year when Fremantle 2016-18 were nowhere near as bad as West Coast 2023. Sounds like you’re just making up excuses now. And of course, you throw in WA victim mentality for good measure.

As you said, he was a “very good” player at Fremantle, but he turned into a bonafide star at Brisbane who single-handedly transformed that midfield. He is one of the best two way runners I have ever seen and it wouldn’t surprise me if he finished his career with three Brownlow medals.

 

[gaskin]

So you’ve basically conceded on three years of his Fremantle career due to “infancy”. His 2016-2018 must’ve been absolutely exceptional if you’re arguing he was during that period better than what he has been at Brisbane. I also didn’t realise he was behind powerhouses like Nick Suban, Matt DeBoer and Tendai Mzungu. Really hard to displace such high quality players like that from midfield!

Players not being able to rack up votes in poor sides is also a myth, especially with coaches votes where they dish out thirty of them and often include eight players. Tim Kelly managed to sneak into the top twenty last year when Fremantle 2016-18 were nowhere near as bad as West Coast 2023. Sounds like you’re just making up excuses now. And of course, you throw in WA victim mentality for good measure.

As you said, he was a “very good” player at Fremantle, but he turned into a bonafide star at Brisbane who single-handedly transformed that midfield. He is one of the best two way runners I have ever seen and it wouldn’t surprise me if he finished his career with three Brownlow medals.

I will say it again. Ross loved his role players which is why DeBoer, Suban, and Mzungu got midfield minutes. I forgot to add Crowley who was a midfield mainstay as a tagger. There is a reason why in a Ross team they got minutes that Lachie could have had if anyone else was coaching.

His 2016-2018 he improved out of sight. He won the Best and Fairest in 2016 and 2018 while finishing 2nd to Brad Hill in 2017 (I still to this day think he should have won it over Hill who I still feel is ridiculously overrated) after not finishing top 5 in his first 4 years.

I also never said players in a poor team can't poll votes. I said we weren't good enough for him to poll big numbers. He was also up against Fyfe, Mundy, and Brad Hill for midfield votes in a shit team. You point to Tim Kelly last year where he statistically had arguably the best season of his career in a team that was decimated by injury so he stood out in a team full of kids.

If you want to look at it from a stats point of view, the only two statistics where he has clear higher numbers at Brisbane is in clearances and inside 50s which makes sense when you consider the players around him in the midfield.

He single-handedly transformed their midfield because they had a shit house midfield and he automatically became their best mid by a long way when he landed there.

 

[Misher]

I will say it again. Ross loved his role players which is why DeBoer, Suban, and Mzungu got midfield minutes. I forgot to add Crowley who was a midfield mainstay as a tagger. There is a reason why in a Ross team they got minutes that Lachie could have had if anyone else was coaching.

His 2016-2018 he improved out of sight. He won the Best and Fairest in 2016 and 2018 while finishing 2nd to Brad Hill in 2017 (I still to this day think he should have won it over Hill who I still feel is ridiculously overrated) after not finishing top 5 in his first 4 years.

I also never said players in a poor team can't poll votes. I said we weren't good enough for him to poll big numbers. He was also up against Fyfe, Mundy, and Brad Hill for midfield votes in a shit team. You point to Tim Kelly last year where he statistically had arguably the best season of his career in a team that was decimated by injury so he stood out in a team full of kids.

If you want to look at it from a stats point of view, the only two statistics where he has clear higher numbers at Brisbane is in clearances and inside 50s which makes sense when you consider the players around him in the midfield.

He single-handedly transformed their midfield because they had a shit house midfield and he automatically became their best mid by a long way when he landed there.

Blaming Ross now? I get it - Neale had little influence from his first three years at Fremantle. Let’s just stick to this supposed golden 2016-18 run.

If Fremantle were so bad from 2016-18, shouldn’t Neale have stood out like Tim Kelly did and polled more coaches votes? And did he only win those B&Fs because Fremantle were a poor team and he had less competition? It’s pretty easy to flip your arguments. I did also laugh at how he got pipped by B. Hill during this apparent strong run of form. Can’t make this stuff up.

Perhaps you need to forget the quality of players around Neale because you’re placing far too much weight on that. If you’re good enough, you’re getting votes. It’s as simple as that. Neale has been recognised by coaches, umpires, AA selectors and his respected clubs as being superior at Brisbane. You keep trying to spin it otherwise, but it’s just not happening.

As for the stats, seems like a pretty last ditch effort to save a weak and unconvincing argument. Not even gonna bother.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

I will say it again. Ross loved his role players which is why DeBoer, Suban, and Mzungu got midfield minutes. I forgot to add Crowley who was a midfield mainstay as a tagger. There is a reason why in a Ross team they got minutes that Lachie could have had if anyone else was coaching.

His 2016-2018 he improved out of sight. He won the Best and Fairest in 2016 and 2018 while finishing 2nd to Brad Hill in 2017 (I still to this day think he should have won it over Hill who I still feel is ridiculously overrated) after not finishing top 5 in his first 4 years.

I also never said players in a poor team can't poll votes. I said we weren't good enough for him to poll big numbers. He was also up against Fyfe, Mundy, and Brad Hill for midfield votes in a shit team. You point to Tim Kelly last year where he statistically had arguably the best season of his career in a team that was decimated by injury so he stood out in a team full of kids.

If you want to look at it from a stats point of view, the only two statistics where he has clear higher numbers at Brisbane is in clearances and inside 50s which makes sense when you consider the players around him in the midfield.

He single-handedly transformed their midfield because they had a shit house midfield and he automatically became their best mid by a long way when he landed there.

Coaches votes favour winning teams in comfortable wins, often split with tight games.
2016-18 Fremantle went 20-46. Those losses were 1-20 (10) 21-50 (18) 51+ (18).

Neale's votes 2016-18.

2016: NM -31. Carl -4. GWS -18. Haw -41. Rich -38. St.K -34. Ess +79. PA +17. Suns -24. GWS -92. WB +20.

A season with a 4-18 W/L and Neale polls AFLCA votes in 11/22 matches, including 9 in losses.

2017: Mel +2. Ess +37. Rich +2. Carl +35. WCE -30. GWS -12. Suns +23.

Polling in 7 games in less than 2016 but should be noted that while Freo won 8 games it also lost 8/14 games by 40+. Very hard to poll in those conditions.

2018: Suns +28. WCE -8. St.K +30. Ade +3. Carl +57. PA +9. Carl +29. Coll -9.

Polled in 8 games and again Freo lost 14 matches. 9 by 50 or more points.

To poll in 26 matches over 3 years in a team that had a lot of losses, and a lot of heavy losses is a good effort imo.
Coaches votes is a poor metric to make the case he wasn't very good in his latter Fremantle seasons. Strongly favours winning teams.

 

[gaskin]

Blaming Ross now? I get it - Neale had little influence from his first three years at Fremantle. Let’s just stick to this supposed golden 2016-18 run.

Where am I blaming Ross? I am saying he had a lot of competition for game time. You find me a midfielder who comes into the league and plays a lot of minutes in their first couple of seasons for a team that already has a stacked midfield.

If Fremantle were so bad from 2016-18, shouldn’t Neale have stood out like Tim Kelly did and polled more coaches votes? And did he only win those B&Fs because Fremantle were a poor team and he had less competition? It’s pretty easy to flip your arguments. I did also laugh at how he got pipped by B. Hill during this apparent strong run of form. Can’t make this stuff up.

No because he was up against prime Fyfe and Mundy who was still at the peak of his powers in the midfield. His career best year at Freo was 2016 when Fyfe was out for most of the year with a broken leg and Mundy had a down year struggling as captain. He was able to shoulder more responsibility and show he was one of the better mids in the comp. In 2017 when he was 2nd in the B&F he had Mundy and Fyfe behind him in 3rd and 4th while they both finished behind him in 2nd and 3rd in 2018. Having those two alongside him at the center bounces is better than anything he has or will have at Brisbane and he still compared quite favorably against them.

As for the stats, seems like a pretty last ditch effort to save a weak and unconvincing argument. Not even gonna bother.

You are trying to call stats a weak argument yet you are trying to use coaches votes? Please. Don't make me laugh.


I'm done arguing. I'm just going to say agree to disagree.

 

[Misher]

Where am I blaming Ross? I am saying he had a lot of competition for game time. You find me a midfielder who comes into the league and plays a lot of minutes in their first couple of seasons for a team that already has a stacked midfield.



No because he was up against prime Fyfe and Mundy who was still at the peak of his powers in the midfield. His career best year at Freo was 2016 when Fyfe was out for most of the year with a broken leg and Mundy had a down year struggling as captain. He was able to shoulder more responsibility and show he was one of the better mids in the comp. In 2017 when he was 2nd in the B&F he had Mundy and Fyfe behind him in 3rd and 4th while they both finished behind him in 2nd and 3rd in 2018. Having those two alongside him at the center bounces is better than anything he has or will have at Brisbane and he still compared quite favorably against them.



You are trying to call stats a weak argument yet you are trying to use coaches votes? Please. Don't make me laugh.


I'm done arguing. I'm just going to say agree to disagree.

I wasn’t expecting him to go in and dominate from day one but you’re blaming Ross for favouring honest battlers ahead of him. Fyfe and Mundy were stars. It fell off a cliff after that. Crowley and Barlow (post leg break) were at the twilight of their careers while Muzungu, DeBoer and Suban are low quality midfielders. There was a spot there for him.

Coaches votes is one of the best metrics that can be used especially if you compare apples with apples. Take Touk Miller for example. He won in 2022 when Gold Coast finished 12th with ten wins. 2017 Fremantle were highly comparable in terms of quality and number of wins. Why was Miller able to capture the attention of the coaches but Neale wasn’t? Fyfe was nowhere to be seen in 2017 either. Trent Cotchin also managed to win one when Richmond finished 12th. And last year T. Kelly, Newcombe, Dawson, Merrett, Anderson and Serong all made the top twenty when their respective sides finished outside of the eight. The year before nearly half the top twenty finished outside the top eight! I could go on. It’s almost like if you’re good enough, you’ll poll. Not Lachie Neale when he played at Fremantle though. He was clearly hard done by. The coaches (including his own) must’ve had it in for him

Stats are essentially meaningless. Coaches votes aren’t. Surprised this needs to be said.

Happy to move on.

 

[Misher]

Happy Dusty 300th day!

Win or lose, going to be unreal at the G today celebrating the champ.

 

[chef]

Happy Dusty 300th day!

Win or lose, going to be unreal at the G today celebrating the champ.

What a legend, best big game player I've seen. Clutch.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Reading about how Swans offered Tigers pick 6 & 14 for Tigers #3 pick as Swans wanted Dusty. Must have been tempting but Tigers stood firm.

Easy in hindsight with these things and every club has similar story but Dees taking Scully and Trengove in first two picks looks so bad now. Although both those players had bad injury issues during their careers.

 

[RPCB]

All those damn soft tissue issues at the club and they’ve just said **** it and are buying their own medical centre.

Reading about how Swans offered Tigers pick 6 & 14 for Tigers #3 pick as Swans wanted Dusty. Must have been tempting but Tigers stood firm.

Easy in hindsight with these things and every club has similar story but Dees taking Scully and Trengove in first two picks looks so bad now. Although both those players had bad injury issues during their careers.

Injuries or not for Scully and Trengove, you can’t produce 300 games and 3 Norm Smith medals on a computer.