The BIG 4 - is is it really the BIG1 and the rest?

[bluepride]

Na, I just read the annual reports of the clubs to get my information. Thanks for your definitive assessment though.



Yeah, I'm talking about now, not what happened years ago. I thought I made that pretty clear. I never said there wasn't a 'big 4', just they are not currently the 'big 4'.



3/4.



Pretty sure annual reports are about as credited as you can get.

Alright then show me then, and show how there isnt a Big 4 by ur evidence. Im still waiting.

3/4- wtf?
Two of those clubs (Carlton and Essendon) werent even premiership contendors.

So your theory of the Big 4 is only live when their is success goes out the window.

 

[Rioli magic]

Alright then show me then, and show how there isnt a Big 4 by ur evidence. Im still waiting.

Revenue:
Hawthorn: 40,516,724
Richmond: 29,979,779
Carlton: 34,147,804

Assets:
Hawthorn: 24,808,146
Richmond: 20,954,736
Carlton: 19,321,600

Liabilities:
Hawthorn: 7,474,097
Richmond: 10,505,537
Carlton: 8,922,956

Cash:
Hawthorn: 6,063,489
Richmond: 14,559,583
Carlton: 585,160

Profit:
Hawthorn: 2,724,745
Richmond: 1,590,755
Carlton: 8,676,645 (grant of 7,924,202)

Merchandise:
Hawthorn: 3,394,506
Richmond: ?
Carlton: 1,518,591

Memberships:
Hawthorn: 52,929
Richmond: 36,985
Carlton: 43,294

Not sure how these figures show Hawthorn definitively behind Richmond and Carlton?

3/4- wtf?
Two of those clubs (Carlton and Essendon) werent even premiership contendors.

Shouldn't they be ranked 1-4?

So your theory of the Big 4 is only live when their is success goes out the window.

When did I state this theory?

 

[eldorado]

Richmond haven't won a thing for 30 years and still our supporter numbers are high.

That's the test of a big side.

Hawks have won shedloads of flags.

Lets see em down for 30 years and then do a count.

No thanks. We'll take the flags, thanks

At least you'll always have... "Big 4"

 

[eldorado]

Again, the most frantic calls come from Tigers supporters.

Carlton and Essendon supporters rarely mention it. They've got success and flags to hang their hats on in the last 30 years.

Collingwood have always been the big brand of the league..they know it, everyone else knows it...so they don't mention it either.

Big 4, Big 4...it grieves me to join this, knowing as I do that a post will come from a Tigers fan "Another bitter hawk who wishes he was Big4!"...but history changes, folks.

Talking about the Big 4 is like talking about the League of Nations, or the hapsburg Empire...it meant something once, but now it doesn't. The only thing is some sort of remnant of prestige, but that means little to a whole generation of football supporters, to whom it is just grandad stories .

I'm sorry, Tiges, but listening to some of you trying to exhort Carlton, Collingwood and Essendon supporters for validation is pretty cringeworthy..

"Hey guys! We're Big 4,aren't we?? Not like those Hawks, huh? No way, they're not like us, are they?"

 

[tigertRANCE]

Again, the most frantic calls come from Tigers supporters.

Carlton and Essendon supporters rarely mention it. They've got success and flags to hang their hats on in the last 30 years.

Collingwood have always been the big brand of the league..they know it, everyone else knows it...so they don't mention it either.

Big 4, Big 4...it grieves me to join this, knowing as I do that a post will come from a Tigers fan "Another bitter hawk who wishes he was Big4!"...but history changes, folks.

Talking about the Big 4 is like talking about the League of Nations, or the hapsburg Empire...it meant something once, but now it doesn't. The only thing is some sort of remnant of prestige, but that means little to a whole generation of football supporters, to whom it is just grandad stories .

I'm sorry, Tiges, but listening to some of you trying to exhort Carlton, Collingwood and Essendon supporters for validation is pretty cringeworthy..

"Hey guys! We're Big 4,aren't we?? Not like those Hawks, huh? No way, they're not like us, are they?"

We don't have to ask "Are we?" We just are...plain & simple....Always have been always will be.....Hawks on the other hand can play with the doggies, roos & co in the sandpit....

GO TIGES!!!

 

[Barkly St End]

...but history changes, folks.

Yes, it does change.

The support Richmond still has after 28 years of doing absolutely nothing is quite extraordinary.

Let's be honest here, Richmond's last 28 years almost match Hawthorn's first 28 years in the VFL!!

We all understand that Richmond can't keep that up for another decade and hope that nothing will change.

Hawthorn is definitely knocking on the door.

As for my team, we're rapt any time they don't turn off the electricity!!

 

[gaelictiogar]

In Milan soccer fans of Inter and AC Milan bag each other about attendances. Flamengo fans in Rio brag that they outdraw everyone else. In japanese baseball the Osaka tigers love to point out that they outdraw the Tokyo Giants etc etc etc

All over the world attendance matters. Why? Because it is something fans directly influence. We can't kick goals or take marks but we can turn up. This pride in drawing well exists across every sporting code in the world.

In the basement, playing rubbish and with no hope of finals there are only 4 Vic clubs that can draw 40,000 average or anything like that to home games across a season. None of the others have done it, can do it or will do it in any forseeable circumstances. All of the Big 4 have. Sorry but that is the difference.

 

[eldorado]

We don't have to ask "Are we?" We just are...plain & simple....Always have been always will be.....

Nice to see it's still 1974 where you live...

 

[Barkly St End]

Back to this OP about there being a BIG 1: Collingwood have just announced that from next year they will limit Legends membership to 9,000 (at $840 a pop).

They could have sold a few more if they wanted to.

That's serious money.

Someone should advise Dan Silkstone - he's the bloke who wrote an Age article arguing that AFL clubs exaggerate their membership numbers by selling pet memberships,etc.

 

[Pie eyed]

As for my team, we're rapt any time they don't turn off the electricity!!

LOL. Small mercies.

This obsession with "The Big 4" wears thin after a few years of reading the numerous threads, but maybe it's easy to be indifferent as a Pies supporter.

There are few sides I am not interested in watching Collingwood play and if I lived in Vic would go to every home game.

 

[tigertRANCE]

Nice to see it's still 1974 where you live...

You're getting owned here; even opposition supporters in Collingwood, Essendon, Carlton & Bulldog fans are also aware of the fact that the mighty Tiges have been and still are in the Big4; funny how it's only Hawk supporters who can't see it or admit it;

Richmond has had 30 years of onfield crapness, yet we still produce the crowds and numbers; thats what being one of the true big Vic teams is all about. Only one of the Big4 can withstand such pathetic onfield performances yet still remain so strong in attendances, memberships and general hype and passion. Any other team other than Coll, Ess, Rich or Carl would have probably folded or at least have pathetic attendances, memberships, etc...

Just like the little child in the backseat of the car asks "Are we there yet?" Hawks fans in here cry "What about us, look at us, are we big 4 yet?" "No dawkers; you're not; go back to your playpen; stop playing with the big boys; not another peep from you!"

GO TIGES!!!

 

[eldorado]

You're getting owned here; even opposition supporters in Collingwood, Essendon, Carlton & Bulldog fans are also aware of the fact that the mighty Tiges have been and still are in the Big4; funny how it's only Hawk supporters who can't see it or admit it;

Richmond has had 30 years of onfield crapness, yet we still produce the crowds and numbers; thats what being one of the true big Vic teams is all about. Only one of the Big4 can withstand such pathetic onfield performances yet still remain so strong in attendances, memberships and general hype and passion. Any other team other than Coll, Ess, Rich or Carl would have probably folded or at least have pathetic attendances, memberships, etc...

Just like the little child in the backseat of the car asks "Are we there yet?" Hawks fans in here cry "What about us, look at us, are we big 4 yet?" "No dawkers; you're not; go back to your playpen; stop playing with the big boys; not another peep from you!"

GO TIGES!!!

I'll say this slowly for you...

I don't want want to be Big 4 if Richmond is an example of it. No Hawthorn fan would.

We'd rather have flags.


Richmond fans have put up with a lot, and they've stayed loyal. Honestly, credit to them.

I defended one of my students (I'm a teacher) who was a Tiger supporter when other kids were hanging shit on her, including a kid who had changed teams; I said people respect supporter who follow shit teams, but no-one respects the kid who changes teams.

So Richmond fans have stuck fast. If your criteria, and source of pride, is how loyal the fans are, then you're big 4. If that's the sole emasure of what this BIG4 thing is all about, then it's true. No-one is denying it, you see.

Richmond fans have been very loyal.

That seems to be your whole case, isn't it? How no other club could possibly have survived 30 years of being such a disaster of a club, therefore, perversely, this makes you a big club.

As far how you can quantify, or prove that this would not be the case with other clubs, that doesn't matter. Somehow, Hawthorn survived 17 years starved of success and emerged with record memberships and profit, but that apparently can't compete with Richmond's tale of 30 years of no success, modest profit and solid memberships.

The thing is...again, I'll type this slowly...that is NOT a measure of success; maybe it's something to have a small modicum of pride in, but it's pretty slim pickins. Certainly NOTHING that any Hawthorn fan would be envious of.

As I said earlier...

it grieves me to join this, knowing as I do that a post will come from a Tigers fan "Another bitter hawk who wishes he was Big4!"

..and sure enough, out you come.

Look forward to your next post about naked Hawk envy...

 

[Shere Khan]

Serious question, why is it the Hawthorn supporters who have the biggest issue with the "Big 4" concept ?

 

[Gavin Excell]

Again, the most frantic calls come from Tigers supporters.

Carlton and Essendon supporters rarely mention it. They've got success and flags to hang their hats on in the last 30 years.

Collingwood have always been the big brand of the league..they know it, everyone else knows it...so they don't mention it either.

Big 4, Big 4...it grieves me to join this, knowing as I do that a post will come from a Tigers fan "Another bitter hawk who wishes he was Big4!"...but history changes, folks.

Talking about the Big 4 is like talking about the League of Nations, or the hapsburg Empire...it meant something once, but now it doesn't. The only thing is some sort of remnant of prestige, but that means little to a whole generation of football supporters, to whom it is just grandad stories .

I'm sorry, Tiges, but listening to some of you trying to exhort Carlton, Collingwood and Essendon supporters for validation is pretty cringeworthy..

"Hey guys! We're Big 4,aren't we?? Not like those Hawks, huh? No way, they're not like us, are they?"

Your controversial anti Hapsburg Empire comments are noted.

 

[rufus t firefly]

Melbourne has a larger population than Scotland.

No it doesn't.

 

[tazhawk]

Serious question, why is it the Hawthorn supporters who have the biggest issue with the "Big 4" concept ?

Serious question for you.

Why are Richmond supporters happy to shout from the rooftops "we are in the Big 4" ?

Give me Premierships any day.

 

[Bazzar]

Soooo funny these Hawk supporters.

They are so insecure about not being recognised by all the other supporters as a genuine super club.

They really do make me laugh.

 

[Off The Couch]

Soooo funny these Hawk supporters.

They are so insecure about not being recognised by all the other supporters as a genuine super club.

They really do make me laugh.

Your so right Baz, in fact I'm so insecure that I have fired off an email to loud mouth Jeff and said "listen here mate, forget those premierships you lot have been chasing, us supporters want to be part of the big 4 and will settle for nothing less".

 

[Shere Khan]

Serious question for you.

Why are Richmond supporters happy to shout from the rooftops "we are in the Big 4" ?

Give me Premierships any day.

I see you refuse to answer my question. No surprise really.

As for Richmond supporters shouting we're a Big 4 ? Have a look through the thread and you'll find there is probably as many non-RFC supporters stating that the RFC are big and are one of the Big 4 than non-RFC supporters.

It's only when the Hawks supporters came in taking shots at Richmond that we came in to defend ourselves.

So, come on, seriously, why do so many Hawks supporters have such a big issue with the Big 4 concept ? Surely you've been too successful recently to have a chip on your shoulder about it.

 

[Bazzar]

Your so right Baz, in fact I'm so insecure that I have fired off an email to loud mouth Jeff and said "listen here mate, forget those premierships you lot have been chasing, us supporters want to be part of the big 4 and will settle for nothing less".

If you’re not worried, then why do you and your fellow insecure Hawk posters keep coming back to this thread to protest?

 

[DaSawx]

I'm sure Hawthorn would rather have their 6 flags and and 9 GF appearances since your last appearance than worry about being a "big 4" club.

It ain't like their dying anytime soon.

 

[Shere Khan]

I'm sure Hawthorn would rather have their 6 flags and and 9 GF appearances since your last appearance than worry about being a "big 4" club.

It ain't like their dying anytime soon.

That's exactly my point. They shouldn't be giving a damn but the biggest and loudest anti-Big 4 group here are Hawks supporters. I can't work out why.

 

[gaelictiogar]

You need to get out more.



On what measure do you have Richmond currently ahead of Hawthorn? Today, right now. I wasn't talking exclusively attendance but it seems you've already sorted that bit out for me:

Let me give you an example of permanence as against form.

In Italian soccer at this very moment lazio are ahead of Juventus on the ladder and are drawing bigger crowds.

By your estimation tht means Lazio are bigger than Juventus. however everyone knows that if you put Juventus equal with Lazio onfield then they dwarf them offield.

Put Richmond beside Hawthron on the ladder and Richmond outdraw Hawthorn. I can show you year after year in which this is true. you cannot show me more than one or two ( if that ) when it isn't. There may or may not be an example from the SOS years but otherwise nothing close to it.

That the is the difference. Lazio is not bigger than Juventus....... of course they might appear so when way ahead on the ladder. just like Tiges and Hawks.

Everyone in Victoria including you knows this. Quite honestly mate the next tiem the clubs neighbour on the ladder Richmond will average thousands a game more. Always do.

 

[Pluggeroo]

So you think premierships from 70 years ago make you bigger then the league?

I think you missed my point, mate.

Those premierships from 70 years ago helped shape the way footy was viewed. Dont forget that in the beginning, footy was something to keep the cricketers fit.

Football caried the hopes and dreams of people through the War Years and the Great Depression. And the teams at the forefront were the alleged Big 4.

During WWI the premierships and grand finals played by the (alleged) big 4 were:

1915 - Carlton d Collingwood
1916 - Fitzroy d Carlton
1917 - Collingwood d Fitzroy
1918 - South Melbourne d Collingwood

WWII:

1939 - Melbourne d Collingwood
1940 - Melbourne d Richmond
1941 - Melbourne d Essendon
1942 - Essendon d Richmond
1943 - Richmond d Essendon
1944 - Fitzroy d Richmond
1945 - Carlton d South Melbourne

And, during the great depression:

1929 - Collingwood d Richmond
1930 - Collingwood d Geelong
1931 - Geelong d Richmond
1932 - Richmond d Carlton
1933 - South Melbourne d Richmond
1934 - Richmond d South Melbourne
1935 - Collingwood d South Melbourne
1936 - Collingwood d South Melbourne
1937 - Geelong d Collingwood
1938 - Carlton d Collingwood

No matter which way you look at it, one of the alleged Big 4 was involved in every one of those grand finals. And, at a time when a nation/state was looking for some sort of positive in their otherwise dreary lives during these low periods in history, they turned to footy, and they did it in droves.

I believe this is where the (alleged) Big 4 got their roots from. I know South Melbourne is also well represented through these years, but we all know what happened to the Bloods in the 80s.

So I reckon those premierships from 70 years ago are extremely pertinent when showing what the 2011 teams looks like without them.

In fact without the working class clubs of Collingwood and Richmond, at the time, the identity of footy and its tribal roots may never have got the kickstart for all clubs that we see today.

There are some very good compositions online to read to see just what those big clubs meant to people in the early years.

And I stand by what I said before: Without Collingwood, Richmond, Carlton and Essendon, the league would be a fairly ordinary competition. Much like the thrown-together comps of the NSL and NBL.

In fact, I think that if those clubs were to start a break away league, the situation would end in a "Last person out, please turn out the lights" for the AFL. The others would follow. Of that, I have no doubt!

 

[Bazzar]

No matter which way you look at it, one of the alleged Big 4 was involved in every one of those grand finals. And, at a time when a nation/state was looking for some sort of positive in their otherwise dreary lives during these low periods in history, they turned to footy, and they did it in droves.

Great post. Best one yet