Roast The Brownlow has no credibility left

[Shane Heard]

Why would the number of people watching have any bearing on either player's performance?

Because most umpires are morons and are just like any other footy fan who focus on the media stars of the game.

How else do you explain why Nic Martin didn’t get at least 20 Brownlow votes for his outstanding season at Essendon.

 

[Carbine Chaos]

The Brownlow won't have more credibility until defenders, ruckmen and forwards are genuine chances of winning.

 

[Shane Heard]

The Brownlow won't have more credibility until defenders, ruckmen and forwards are genuine chances of winning.

No shi_

 

[Back One Out]

Anderson's a bit more than that. He is in the same category as Gulden. Both will be the next big things of the AFL.

Dude, I wasn't thinking of any player in particular

I was just using Hawks v Suns 1pm game at Launceston as an example of a game that nobody watches

Roughly 50% of games every round have a clear-cut BOG and the other 50% is a bit of a raffle between 2,3,4,5 players

 

[Back One Out]

Why would the number of people watching have any bearing on either player's performance?

I was comparing a finals-like match between the top 2 teams on the ladder to a shitty game between teams down near the bottom of the ladder.

 

[Back One Out]

Woewodin beat Scott West, not Kouta, in 2000. Dogs fans ropeable, not Blues fans.

For goodness sake, get it right son!

Kouta was the 2000 MVP and Brownlow favourite for most of the year
He was that season's version of Bont and Daicos rolled into one.

edit: everyone (apart from Dees fans) was less-than-impressed about Woey beating West, Kouta, McLeod and Buckley. But it showed a lot about the Brownlow as an award. The 2000 Dees won a lot of games that year. They were very even, well-coached, but they had no midfield superstars. Their big guns were Neitz, Schwarz and Farmer up forwards, with Yze out wide on a wing/flank. Their midfield was an odd mix of hard-working b-graders: Woey, Leoncelli, Rigoni, Powell, McDonald, Febey...

The umps had to give their votes to someone... and it was the flashy, blonde-haired guy who got 30 touches and loved taking a few bounces who caught their eye and received all the votes. Nobody thought he was the best player in the AFL, but he didn't have to be. He just had to be Melbourne's best player most weekends.

That's the inherent flaw about the Brownlow which people lose sight of.

Neale is a very good player. He might not be the best footballer in the AFL, but he is Brisbane's best player... ahead of Andrews, Daniher, McCluggage, Dunkley, Cameron, Bailey, Rayner, Coleman and McInerney. The Lions won a lot of games, so their best on-baller got a lot of votes.

 

[Simon_Says]

Jeremy Cameron

The guy is amazing at Football

1 vote for 6 goals vs carl and umpires still think he had no influence! what game r they watching?

 

[Blues_Man]

Let me guess a pies fan started this thread ?

 

[Shane Heard]

Kouta was the 2000 MVP and Brownlow favourite for most of the year
He was that season's version of Bont and Daicos rolled into one.

What’s even more amazing is that Luke Darcy tied with Voss for the award in 2002.

 

[Mr Meow]

What’s even more amazing is that Luke Darcy tied with Voss for the award in 2002.

An over 20 disposal, 1 goal a game ruckman back in 2002 = pretty damn impressive. Around 7 clearances a few inside 50s per game to go with that. From the four years that followed where goal assists started being recorded it seems he dished plenty off too, so probably add another 0.8-1.0 goal assists per game on top of that.

Gawn actually hasn't gone close to that collective set of numbers in any particular season.

 

[Seeds]

Should Neale hand back the medal?

 

[Seeds]

An over 20 disposal, 1 goal a game ruckman back in 2002 = pretty damn impressive. Around 7 clearances a few inside 50s per game to go with that. From the four years that followed where goal assists started being recorded it seems he dished plenty off too, so probably add another 0.8-1.0 goal assists per game on top of that.

Gawn actually hasn't gone close to that collective set of numbers in any particular season.

Thats one of the dumbest posts Ive seen on big footy. Gawn has had seasons averaging 40plus hit outs a game. luke darcy averaged 12 hitouts a game.

Im taking gawns extra 28 hit outs a game in exchange for luke darcys 4 extra lose disposals off the half back flank.

luke darcy was an ordinary ruckman.

 

[Partridge]

Broadly speaking you are right, but public opinion is all media driven anyway.

I still think there is a place for it. The idea that a good player misses out for being a bit of a campaigner has a quaint appeal that is kind of cool.

To a point that's fair, but the problem is a player could get suspended for something that really isn't that bad.

Take Sicily this year. Do people really think he's a dirty player because of a .......tackle? From memory he actually won the free kick too.

You're right, players who are suspended for striking and so on, no arguments. Ineligible. But some are a bit more murky.

 

[Yellow Feathers]

I’d love to see the data around an unknown player having a great year but getting no votes.
Then getting mass votes the year after, once the umpires know who they are.

 

[Mr Meow]

Thats one of the dumbest posts Ive seen on big footy. Gawn has had seasons averaging 40plus hit outs a game. luke darcy averaged 12 hitouts a game.

Im taking gawns extra 28 hit outs a game in exchange for luke darcys 4 extra lose disposals off the half back flank.

luke darcy was an ordinary ruckman.

Childish starts to posts like this barely warrant a response, but I'll make an exception.

Yes, Gawn has smashed Darcy from that year for hitouts. Darcy smashed Gawn for everything else. Both were rated very very highly by the players one year.

Note I never claimed that Gawn's seasons were inferior. But if you are dominating him in every stat out minus hit outs, and he is known as an excellent around-the-ground contributor - then you have obviously done a lot right. Being worth a couple of goals a game between goals/assists, going at 7 clearances (which would be top 10 in the league for 2023) and 12 contested possessions (17th in the league if in 2023) for starters is leaps and bounds beyond what the AA ruckman this year, English, achieved.

 

[Mr Meow]

Seeds just a little reminder:

A ruckman who is stronger for kicks, inside 50s, CPs, UPs, marks, contested marks, clearances and tackles (let alone goals and goal assists directly) is raising the odds of their sides chance of victory a lot more than one leading hitouts but not the rest.

In retrospect maybe your post was one of the sillier ones in this thread.

 

[My Tilly]

I recall Darcy being a very good ruckman. Was always undersized but formed a very solid partnership with Scott Wynd before being the sole ruck for the rest of his career.

A bit like Luke Jackson

9

Luke Jackson

Age

23

Ht

199cm

Wt

102kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.3

2star

K

3.3

1star

HB

5.0

4star

M

1.5

2star

T

1.0

3star

G

0.3

3star

D

8.3

2star

K

3.3

1star

HB

5.0

3star

M

1.5

2star

T

1.0

2star

G

0.3

3star

D

8.3

3star

K

3.3

2star

HB

5.0

4star

M

1.5

2star

T

1.0

3star

G

0.3

3star

but without the same athletic profile as Luke.

 

[BallaratBulldog]

I recall Darcy being a very good ruckman. Was always undersized but formed a very solid partnership with Scott Wynd before being the sole ruck for the rest of his career.

A bit like Luke Jackson but without the same athletic profile as Luke.

Unfortunately Darcy had an ACL down at the cattery forward pocket in 2005 then again during the next pre season and slowed him down to finish in 07. He was looking dangerous as a forward that year while we tried to develop Minson/Skipper with Street. I have the feeling people are remembering those later year after ACL rather than most of his career. I always wondered if he would have played the extra year or two otherwise, right when we could have used an extra tall in the forwardline for those close prelims.

 

[Mr Meow]

Unfortunately Darcy had an ACL down at the cattery forward pocket in 2005 then again during the next pre season and slowed him down to finish in 07. He was looking dangerous as a forward that year while we tried to develop Minson/Skipper with Street. I have the feeling people are remembering those later year after ACL rather than most of his career. I always wondered if he would have played the extra year or two otherwise, right when we could have used an extra tall in the forwardline for those close prelims.

In 2002 he was also heavy favourite heading into the Brownlow Medal night, was All Australian and won the AFL media association award, so his joint MVP voted by the players was hardly a fluke. For a few years he was like a more damaging Tim English who could swing forward with potency as well

 

[TheEscapeClub]

Robbie Gray 2014 won the AFLCA award by a street & probably the best individual year I've seen from a Port player.. 14 votes lol

Do you think coaches and umpires have the same mindset when they cast votes?

There's a lot of energy being expended in here over something that happens every year, play on!

 

[TheEscapeClub]

I think the game, clearly, has gone past umpires on the ground officiating also being expected to submit Brownlow votes. The games are just too hard and demand too much of them to also be responsible for the most prestigious award we have in our game.

Surely the answer is to have a group of 3 - 4 umpires who aren't directly in charge of the game being responsible for providing votes for that game. They can do it from anywhere, they don't need to be at the ground.

I'm not sure the AFL is putting the umpires in the best position to get the best result. Anyone watching the round 24 Sydney vs. Melbourne game impartially will tell you it was 2/3 Petracca & Gulden, in whichever order you like. If the field umpires can't see that, then there is your issue.

This is the only sensible solution I've read, someone rang up 3AW yesterday and suggested the same thing.

There is a coaches award.
There is a players award.
There are countless media awards.

If we let any of them vote instead of the umpires then It's pointless. The Brownlow is the umpire's award.

 

[adammania9]

The Brownlow won't have more credibility until defenders, ruckmen and forwards are genuine chances of winning.

Those positions don't win other awards anyway. Lance Franklin won 0 coaches or players' MVP awards. Nick Riewoldt was the last non-midfielder to win the players' MVP way back in 2004. Max Gawn is the only non-midfielder to have won the AFLCA award since 2005.

AFLCA Champion Player of the Year - AFL Coaches Association Awards - AFL Coaches Association

aflcoaches.com.au

You can surf through the years at this link and see that midfielders dominate every count.

 

[Back One Out]

What’s even more amazing is that Luke Darcy tied with Voss for the award in 2002.

He always had the talent. Just never put it together.

Two things helped him become an A-grade star for a couple of years.

1. The AFL umpires briefly relaxed the rules around ruckmen making contact with each other before every bounce and permitted super strong beasts like Matty Primus to charge into their opponent and knock them off balance or shove them out of the way before grabbing the ball cleanly (or belting it forwards.) That had always been a free kick, but it seemed to creep into the game overnight and changed the whole ruck dynamic. Darcy was also very good at rucking in this manner. i.e. Keeping your feet, and using your strong centre of gravity to play the man first and then the ball (instead of leaping high for the hit-out)

2. He received some dietary advice from Shane Charters, the same guy who helped Hirdy get back to his best and helped Woey go to another level. "Dr Ageless" infamously reappeared a decade later... as the target of a federal police investigation into the importation of illegal steroids. Of course, this also caught the Essendon F.C. in the net as Hird had been in contact with Charters over procuring them the Thymosin Beta 4 ingredients from China for his team's injection program.

 

[Back One Out]

This is the only sensible solution I've read, someone rang up 3AW yesterday and suggested the same thing.

There is a coaches award.
There is a players award.
There are countless media awards.

If we let any of them vote instead of the umpires then It's pointless. The Brownlow is the umpire's award.

It's one of the worst posts in this thread. (Saying the emergency umps should vote instead of the field umpires.)
I agree with you 100% about it being the umpires award and that tradition should never be changed.


Despite what all the nuffies think, the field umpires do a decent job at controlling the game, enforcing the rules, and giving their Brownlow votes. They are on the spot and better placed than anyone sitting on the sidelines to reward the real difference-makers in any game with their votes.

I see everyone saying the coaches know their stuff; how their votes mean more than any umpires and how the AFLCA award is the best. So how do we explain the Brownlow and AFLCA awards having a near identical leaderboard? If the umps are so bad and the Brownlow is broke beyond repair, how do we explain them having the same top 6 players as the coaches award?

Brownlow......AFLCA
1.Neale...........1.Butters
2.Bontempelli...2.Bontempelli
3.Daicos..........3.Daicos
4.Butters.........4.Petracca
5.Gulden.........5.Neale
6.Petracca.......6.Gulden

I feel like we're in the twilight Zone... Some weird cognitive dissonance going on, all because Lachie Neale is an unpopular winner - a hard-working in and under player, rather than the smooth-moving Rolls Royce type of footballer that people prefer.

 

[Shane Heard]

It's one of the worst posts in this thread.

Despite what all the nuffies think, the field umpires do a decent job at controlling the game, enforcing the rules, and giving their Brownlow votes. They are on the spot and better placed than anyone sitting on the sidelines to reward the real difference-makers in any game with their votes.

I see people saying the coaches know their s**t and how their votes mean more than any umpires. So how do you explain the Brownlow and AFLCA awards having a near identical leaderboard? If the umps are so bad and the Brownlow is broke beyond repair, how do we explain them having the same top 6 players as the coaches award?

Yeah but nah …they still award 3s and 2s to mediocre performances and ignore standout 30/35 plus games where it’s clear as day they were best on ground.

The JHF 3 v Geelong is the classic example of why umpires are not reliable enough to give accurate votes.

Bont or Trac should’ve won this year.

Neale should’ve been ranked about number 10…not the winner.