Current The Bunker Part 2

[Kurve]

Here is: The Abduction of 4yo Cleo Smith

 

[Kurve]

Do we know if anybody has ever been over Karrakatta with a metal detector? If they haven't, I think it might be worth a shot. His trophy box might be buried somewhere in there.

 

[the dark knight]

How’s the book going everyone?

 

[one eyed spy]

Hey Bret, why did you have to include an index at all? Im finding it impossible to just read from beginning to end now, as I'm sure you intended! I'm manic going back & forth searching for unknown gems based on a word or two.

 

[Mesc]

Do we know if anybody has ever been over Karrakatta with a metal detector? If they haven't, I think it might be worth a shot. His trophy box might be buried somewhere in there.

Do you think I would get noticed if I was digging a hole in the middle of the cemetery ?

 

[one eyed spy]

How’s the book going everyone?

10 chapters in, socks still on.

 

[Kurve]

Do you think I would get noticed if I was digging a hole in the middle of the cemetery ?

You might now but you could have done it unseen back then.

People still hide things in parks and on public land today though, only in Sydney recently a woman was caught retrieving $100k in cash out of a park. And she was only caught because she had just gone under police surveillance.

 

[one eyed spy]

Hey zedx Chapter 35

Exceptionally thin penis! Ummmmm? Yeah, gross, didn't care to or need to know that!
Liked to discuss the topic of the murders too.....What a fkin dog!
Pity the amount of times he gets bashed in prison will likely be another guarded secret.
I don't condone any form of violence generally, but ffs, someone needs to inflict some revenge on this guy. Just for the fear the girls must have felt at his hand needs a day or two in the prisons infirmary & I hope he is in fear for his own life every single day he's inside. They say jail IS the punishment for the crime, but it hardly seems enough!
No doubt he's protected to the hilt, but they'll get to have a crack at him eventually & the more they hear, the more they'll want to give him one. I hope that "blind eye" he seems to have been once benefited by is once again turned, to his detriment.
Its actually sickening that it invokes this reaction in me, these feelings are 100% foreign, but my word I'm feeling them.

 

[BFew]

'Detectives called and visited Edwards’ work colleagues, past and present. The picture they built was of man with a quirky sense of humour, a man who also liked to discuss the topic of the Claremont murders.
(Christian, Bret. Stalking Claremont (p. 296). ABC Books. Kindle Edition.')

When are we ever going to hear from any of either
- BRE's past or present work colleagues,
- BRE's Central Crocs Masters Aussie Rules teammates,
- anyone that ever worked for WAPOL (work related, social, or extended family - if anyone)
- anyone involved in Little Athletics (official, parent or athlete)
about exactly what it was about the Claremont Murders, that BRE either discussed with them, or that they overheard BRE discussing with others?

Maybe some more will come out after
1. any BRE appeal process has concluded
2. either any enquiries into anything to do with the case are either finalised, or it becomes pretty certain that they are not going ahead.
3. it becomes more certain that BRE is not going to be charged with any more offences, or the case of Sarah Spiers is solved.

 

[Likeamystery]

How’s the book going everyone?

I've just finished reading the book, it's very informative. Evidently, at the forensic repository, the Huntingdale 1988 evidence had been stored in the same tub of evidence as Jack van Tongren's. From what I remember about van Tongren he was the one who had bombed the Chinese restaurant in Ferndale about 1989 - I think Metcalf Rd. Perhaps some of van Tongens crimes were within the Gosnells police's jurisdiction. Amongst the Huntingdale evidence was the 1988 break-in kimono and umpteen several bizarre reports around that time, including a male fitting BREs description who stood outside people's houses doing strange things. The reports were regarding Huntingdale & Southern River. Back then, there would have only been a handful of houses in Southern River - i.e. Leslie St, Margaret St area. None of the information contained BREs name, except the finger-prints matched his. They were uploaded into the data base and matched with the HH attack.

Also, CGs underwear was discovered at her grave - CGs initials on the tag. There were about 3 visits to CGs grave in year 2000, one month apart. They used camera surveillance and saw two people with a light, a tall man and a women. I wonder who the woman was? Seems like a strange place to take a woman.

 

[one eyed spy]

'Detectives called and visited Edwards’ work colleagues, past and present. The picture they built was of man with a quirky sense of humour, a man who also liked to discuss the topic of the Claremont murders.
(Christian, Bret. Stalking Claremont (p. 296). ABC Books. Kindle Edition.')

When are we ever going to hear from any of either
- BRE's past or present work colleagues,
- BRE's Central Crocs Masters Aussie Rules teammates,
- anyone that ever worked for WAPOL (work related, social, or extended family - if anyone)
- anyone involved in Little Athletics (official, parent or athlete)
about exactly what it was about the Claremont Murders, that BRE either discussed with them, or that they overheard BRE discussing with others?

Maybe some more will come out after
1. any BRE appeal process has concluded
2. either any enquiries into anything to do with the case are either finalised, or it becomes pretty certain that they are not going ahead.
3. it becomes more certain that BRE is not going to be charged with any more offences, or the case of Sarah Spiers is solved.

When its settled, with a little more time passed is my guess for some, & probably never for many.
I guarantee all of these people that have been spoken to by police have been warned not to speak about it to anyone & had the fear of jeopodising the trial or the possibility of any further charges being laid drummed into them. They will be hesitant & many will continue to comply, perhaps never coming out.
Many wont know what to say or where they might find a platform to say it either. Plenty of others will still be coming to terms with the realisation that he really did do the things he was accused of too. Probably trawling their own recollections of any sign they missed or conversation that in hindsight was a bit odd. It would be shocking to many I'm sure.

 

[the dark knight]

I've just finished reading the book, it's very informative. Evidently, at the forensic repository, the Huntingdale 1988 evidence had been stored in the same tub of evidence as Jack van Tongren's. From what I remember about van Tongren he was the one who had bombed the Chinese restaurant in Ferndale about 1989 - I think Metcalf Rd. Perhaps some of van Tongens crimes were within the Gosnells police's jurisdiction. Amongst the Huntingdale evidence was the 1988 break-in kimono and umpteen several bizarre reports around that time, including a male fitting BREs description who stood outside people's houses doing strange things. The reports were regarding Huntingdale & Southern River. Back then, there would have only been a handful of houses in Southern River - i.e. Leslie St, Margaret St area. None of the information contained BREs name, except the finger-prints matched his. They were uploaded into the data base and matched with the HH attack.

Also, CGs underwear was discovered at her grave - CGs initials on the tag. There were about 3 visits to CGs grave in year 2000, one month apart. They used camera surveillance and saw two people with a light, a tall man and a women. I wonder who the woman was? Seems like a strange place to take a woman.

So worth purchasing then?

 

[insanity]

'Detectives called and visited Edwards’ work colleagues, past and present. The picture they built was of man with a quirky sense of humour, a man who also liked to discuss the topic of the Claremont murders.
(Christian, Bret. Stalking Claremont (p. 296). ABC Books. Kindle Edition.')

When are we ever going to hear from any of either
- BRE's past or present work colleagues,
- BRE's Central Crocs Masters Aussie Rules teammates,
- anyone that ever worked for WAPOL (work related, social, or extended family - if anyone)
- anyone involved in Little Athletics (official, parent or athlete)
about exactly what it was about the Claremont Murders, that BRE either discussed with them, or that they overheard BRE discussing with others?

Maybe some more will come out after
1. any BRE appeal process has concluded
2. either any enquiries into anything to do with the case are either finalised, or it becomes pretty certain that they are not going ahead.
3. it becomes more certain that BRE is not going to be charged with any more offences, or the case of Sarah Spiers is solved.

I’m wondering why we’ve still not heard more too. Could there be other cases against him pending? It just seems so strange how little we’ve heard.

 

[insanity]

So worth purchasing then?

I just finished it. If you’re an avid follower here and on websleuths back in the day you’ll know a lot already. However this book has great insights about how the case was handled or mishandled by the police. I thought it was worth it.

 

[insanity]

So I’ve finished the book. What did anyone make of the cat and mouse reference at the end? Pretty horrifying but I can see it.

 

[BFew]

'There was still a mysterious Telstra driver lurking in the background of the investigation around this time. In December 1998, detectives had a crack at tracking the driver of the elusive Toyota Camry with Telstra markings, like the one spotted at the bus stop in the early morning after Sarah Spiers had disappeared. The driver had been behaving oddly, leering at a young woman who was alone and waiting for a taxi.'

'Police sent Telstra a fax, asking for a list of all its active vehicles from January 25–28, 1996. Although it was registered and operational by Telstra in January 1996, the Camry station wagon driven on the night Sarah had been abducted had reached the end of its service life in May 1996 and was sent to auction. Because it was no longer registered to the telco in December 1998, it did not appear on the list that Telstra provided to the police.'

'Police shared no information about a possible Telstra vehicle or Holden station wagon with the public, nor did they make a public plea for tips about Telstra, despite knowing of other women being offered lifts in Telstra vehicles. Even Tim Atherton, the Assistant Police Commissioner in charge of crime from April 1998 to September 2002, was not told of the Telstra connections during regular briefings from Macro detectives. ‘I was never, ever told,’ he said in 2020. ‘I can’t understand why there was never any mention of a man in Telstra vehicles. The investigators said Lance Williams was a pervert and that he’d done it.’'
(Christian, Bret. Stalking Claremont (p. 133-134). ABC Books. Kindle Edition.)

So if one of the WA Assistant Police Commissioner wasn't told about the Telstra connections, were any of his peers, or the WA Police Commissioner, WA Minister for Police, Attorney General, WA Premier, or any other Government Ministers/Officials told? Or anyone at the Federal level (Police, Telstra oversight etc) formally or informally told or briefed?

Again raising the issue of the various relationships between Police/Governments and Telecom/Telstra, and whether these might have materially adversely contributed to the BRE crimes being partially solved or stopped, later rather than sooner.

I speculate that had WAPOL gone public on all the various Telstra connections early on, or had been provided with all the required information from Telstra/Telecom about Telstra vehicles and potential/known drivers of them, that the various BRE crimes would have resulted in BRE being quickly identified as the main suspect back in the later 90's.

 

[BFew]

Also, CGs underwear was discovered at her grave - CGs initials on the tag. There were about 3 visits to CGs grave in year 2000, one month apart. They used camera surveillance and saw two people with a light, a tall man and a women. I wonder who the woman was? Seems like a strange place to take a woman.

A Policewomen maybe?

 

[BFew]

What did anyone make of the cat and mouse reference at the end? Pretty horrifying but I can see it.

Having in person witnessed some very one-sided cat and entrapped mouse battles in recent years, associating the likes of convicted BRE with the personality of a cat had not occurred to me. But when I think of how some cute kitties turn into evil eyed sadistic killers acting on primal urges, in a drawn out game (for the cat), that often ends with it devouring nearly all of it's rodent prey, the BRE cat and mouse reference is really horrifying.

Does anyone know if BRE ever had cat or mice as childhood pets?

 

[Likeamystery]

The Huntingdale break-in evidence ended up in the same archive tub as Jack van Tongeren’s criminal activities. Jack van Tongeren lived in Gosnells. In Feb 1988 a member of the group’s home was arsoned in a failed attempt at insurance fraud (same month as the kimono break-in). Van Tongeren’s criminal activity was stepped up between Sept 1988 and 1989. Both the Gosnells and Cannington police would have been busy tracking down van Tongeren’s group. The Huntingdale prowler became lower priority – why they didn’t have time for stake-outs.

Jack van Tongeren was the leader of the Australian National Movement party (ANM)

Commencement of criminal activities
February 1988 – August 1989
The Australian National Movement's (ANM) criminal activity may have commenced in February 1988 when a member of the group's home was arsoned in a failed attempt at insurance fraud. ANM then turned towards arsoning and fire-bombing Asian-owned businesses with the intention of intimidating Asians and inciting a race war. Between September 1988 and May 1989, five restaurants were arsoned, and one was bombed (i.e. Ferndale) leading to community tensions, vigilantism, and a decline in Asian investment.

04 Feb 1989 - Few marginal seats to decide WA poll - Trove (nla.gov.au)

Jack van Tongeren — Wikipedia Republished // WIKI 2

So worth purchasing then?

Yes, it provides insight into how the case was mishandled.

 

[Kurve]

So I’ve finished the book. What did anyone make of the cat and mouse reference at the end? Pretty horrifying but I can see it.

An overarching truth imo. Very much so.

 

[Likeamystery]

Page 267 – Jackhammer
Towards the end of 2015, Commissioner O’Callaghan quietly ramped up the resources of the State Crime Operations Team (State Ops). State Ops was learning on the job and refining its techniques. Yet any link between less-serious historic Claremont crimes and the serial murders remained out of reach. State Ops was having some great wins, but it had also exhausted its trawl of relevant, historic crimes in and around Claremont, details of which Special Crime had sent its brother squad.

Towards the end of 2016, State Ops members decided to take another look at the leftovers – old, unsolved crimes committed far from the urban village of Claremont.

State Ops went to PRESS (Property Receival and Exhibit Storage Section) to delve into a long-ago sealed storage tub, marked Operation Jackhammer. When they opened it, they found a trove of old evidence: boxes and bags from the 1980s. In the clean room, they were surprised to unearth a series of old records of unsolved cases, misfiled under the name Peter Joseph ‘Jack’ van Tongeren. It turned out to be a goldmine. Jack van Tongeren a name familiar to West Australians in the 1980s

A strong theme of perversion was clear from the householders’ reports of home invasions and sightings of the offender. Women’s underwear had been stolen from clotheslines and bedrooms. Frequent sightings were of a tall prowler wearing women’s nightwear and underwear.

Fifteen sex crimes had been committed in the area in the previous two years.

Page 269 – Jackhammer
By Nov 2016, DNA matching was a routine tool, everything laid out on the brown-paper-covered bench in the clean room, repackaged the kimono and sent it to the lab for DNA-testing. From the dried semen still on the kimono, scientists extracted a DNA profile. When they ran it through the database on Dec 1, the result stunned everybody. Jackpot!

 

[Likeamystery]

A Policewomen maybe?

Not sure that she was a police woman. It sounds more like a woman who went willingly to the cemetery. I was thinking perhaps a street worker, someone who was paid to partake in some sort of fantasy activity. Do we know if any street workers went missing in 2000?

All people who either went missing or murdered (I'm not suggesting they were all street workers)

2000
Deborah Anderson (24 Jan 2000)
Jason Grill aged 29 missing from Subiaco (17 Feb 2000)
Sarah McMahon (8 Nov 2000).

1999 Jennifer Wilby went missing in May 1999 - street worker
1998 Lisa Brown went missing in Nov 1998 - street worker

 

[BFew]

it had also exhausted its trawl of relevant, historic crimes in and around Claremont

So they looked at potential suspects from all Perth taxi drivers within a few years, but it took them 18 years to bother to look at historic crimes from outside the Claremont and surrounds area for potential suspects.

Maybe if some of the external to WA Government raised funds that the Denis Glennon initiated 'Secure Communities Foundation' used to 'tempt' WAPOL to explore importing and importing profilers and psychiatrists to Western Australia from interstate and the USA, was instead used for some much more boring old fashioned police investigations, they would have come across the Huntingdale cold cases pretty quickly.

Although to be fair, juggling police human and financial resources with a case involving so many murders and other crimes was never going to be easy.
And it's way too easy for keyboard crime sleuths to take pot shots in hindsight at where resources should have gone.

However, the apparent ridiculous over-investment and waste of manpower and precious $ on prime suspects Lance Williams, Steve Ross, and Peter Weygers, is my prime pot shot at the WAPOL decision makers all those years ago.

Page 269 – Jackhammer
By Nov 2016, DNA matching was a routine tool, everything laid out on the brown-paper-covered bench in the clean room, repackaged the kimono and sent it to the lab for DNA-testing. From the dried semen still on the kimono, scientists extracted a DNA profile. When they ran it through the database on Dec 1, the result stunned everybody. Jackpot!'

'(Chapter) 14 Unconventional
... Denis Glennon started a fund to help pay for additional police resources with his wealthy and influential business friends, including Neil Fearis, his close friend and Ciara’s boss; Michael Chaney, the boss of the national conglomerate Wesfarmers and future National Bank and Woodside chairman; and Julie Bishop, who would become Australia’s Foreign Minister.
Bishop had known Ciara Glennon when she worked as a summer clerk at the law firm Clayton Utz. Ciara had many friends at the firm. ‘The young women in particular were devastated when they heard the news and I found myself counselling them,’ Bishop said.
Called the Secure Communities Foundation, the fund kicked off with $250,000 during the electric, grief-soaked atmosphere of fear and helplessness in the aftermath of Ciara’s murder being confirmed. This unheard-of external funding was to tempt officers into exploring techniques they had not used before, including a criminal-tracking computer system from England, and importing profilers and psychiatrists to Western Australia from interstate and the USA. From San Francisco, they also imported a lie detector operator and his machine, despite the fact that lie detector results are not recognised in any Australian court. The foundation also paid for upgrading the local forensic laboratory, PathWest, enabling it to buy two genetic analysers to cope with the flood of mouth swabs taken from taxi drivers and others. These analysers, called Profiler Plus, were a huge leap in automated DNA analysis.
Contributions rapidly rose to $850,000, with the extra money slated to supplement the local police budget, including sending officers to the USA.
Behind the scenes and with the help of these extra funds, Macro was ramping up its fight against the phantom killer.
(Christian, Bret. Stalking Claremont Ch 14 Unconventional (from p. 115). ABC Books. Kindle Edition.)

 

[Kurve]

'(Chapter) 14 Unconventional
... Denis Glennon started a fund to help pay for additional police resources with his wealthy and influential business friends, including Neil Fearis, his close friend and Ciara’s boss; Michael Chaney, the boss of the national conglomerate Wesfarmers and future National Bank and Woodside chairman; and Julie Bishop, who would become Australia’s Foreign Minister.
Bishop had known Ciara Glennon when she worked as a summer clerk at the law firm Clayton Utz. Ciara had many friends at the firm. ‘The young women in particular were devastated when they heard the news and I found myself counselling them,’ Bishop said.
Called the Secure Communities Foundation, the fund kicked off with $250,000 during the electric, grief-soaked atmosphere of fear and helplessness in the aftermath of Ciara’s murder being confirmed. This unheard-of external funding was to tempt officers into exploring techniques they had not used before, including a criminal-tracking computer system from England, and importing profilers and psychiatrists to Western Australia from interstate and the USA. From San Francisco, they also imported a lie detector operator and his machine, despite the fact that lie detector results are not recognised in any Australian court. The foundation also paid for upgrading the local forensic laboratory, PathWest, enabling it to buy two genetic analysers to cope with the flood of mouth swabs taken from taxi drivers and others. These analysers, called Profiler Plus, were a huge leap in automated DNA analysis.
Contributions rapidly rose to $850,000, with the extra money slated to supplement the local police budget, including sending officers to the USA.
Behind the scenes and with the help of these extra funds, Macro was ramping up its fight against the pha

Looks like it tempted them into turning their heads away from the hard slog of basic detective work.

 

[zedx]

Not sure that she was a police woman. It sounds more like a woman who went willingly to the cemetery. I was thinking perhaps a street worker, someone who was paid to partake in some sort of fantasy activity. Do we know if any street workers went missing in 2000?

All people who either went missing or murdered (I'm not suggesting they were all street workers)

2000
Deborah Anderson (24 Jan 2000)
Jason Grill aged 29 missing from Subiaco (17 Feb 2000)
Sarah McMahon (8 Nov 2000).

1999 Jennifer Wilby went missing in May 1999 - street worker
1998 Lisa Brown went missing in Nov 1998 - street worker

As it is now 2021 and the CSK is behind bars (no risk to any court case now) why would WAPOL not put out a public request for the people sighted at her grave site to come foward? They may not come forward, but they may. Or is it just too late now and doesn't matter? Waste of WAPOL funds?

 

[zedx]

So they looked at potential suspects from all Perth taxi drivers within a few years, but it took them 18 years to bother to look at historic crimes from outside the Claremont and surrounds area for potential suspects.

Maybe if some of the external to WA Government raised funds that the Denis Glennon initiated 'Secure Communities Foundation' used to 'tempt' WAPOL to explore importing and importing profilers and psychiatrists to Western Australia from interstate and the USA, was instead used for some much more boring old fashioned police investigations, they would have come across the Huntingdale cold cases pretty quickly.

Although to be fair, juggling police human and financial resources with a case involving so many murders and other crimes was never going to be easy.
And it's way too easy for keyboard crime sleuths to take pot shots in hindsight at where resources should have gone.

However, the apparent ridiculous over-investment and waste of manpower and precious $ on prime suspects Lance Williams, Steve Ross, and Peter Weygers, is my prime pot shot at the WAPOL decision makers all those years ago.


'(Chapter) 14 Unconventional
... Denis Glennon started a fund to help pay for additional police resources with his wealthy and influential business friends, including Neil Fearis, his close friend and Ciara’s boss; Michael Chaney, the boss of the national conglomerate Wesfarmers and future National Bank and Woodside chairman; and Julie Bishop, who would become Australia’s Foreign Minister.
Bishop had known Ciara Glennon when she worked as a summer clerk at the law firm Clayton Utz. Ciara had many friends at the firm. ‘The young women in particular were devastated when they heard the news and I found myself counselling them,’ Bishop said.
Called the Secure Communities Foundation, the fund kicked off with $250,000 during the electric, grief-soaked atmosphere of fear and helplessness in the aftermath of Ciara’s murder being confirmed. This unheard-of external funding was to tempt officers into exploring techniques they had not used before, including a criminal-tracking computer system from England, and importing profilers and psychiatrists to Western Australia from interstate and the USA. From San Francisco, they also imported a lie detector operator and his machine, despite the fact that lie detector results are not recognised in any Australian court. The foundation also paid for upgrading the local forensic laboratory, PathWest, enabling it to buy two genetic analysers to cope with the flood of mouth swabs taken from taxi drivers and others. These analysers, called Profiler Plus, were a huge leap in automated DNA analysis.
Contributions rapidly rose to $850,000, with the extra money slated to supplement the local police budget, including sending officers to the USA.
Behind the scenes and with the help of these extra funds, Macro was ramping up its fight against the phantom killer.
(Christian, Bret. Stalking Claremont Ch 14 Unconventional (from p. 115). ABC Books. Kindle Edition.)

In some instances you would put it down to hindsight, but I think this blunder of not checking related incidents is unforgivable. Wouldn't that be a 101 in an investigation?