Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread

[Jeremias]

Where is the midfield coming from Jera?

Midfielders?

We have plenty at the club already - top end talent, too.

We've invested heavily in midfield talent; indeed after SOS' first year at the helm we have been obsessed with taking mids early and often.

2019 - Philp
2018 - Walsh, Stocker
2017 - Dow, O'Brien
2016 - SPS, (Setterfield)

That's 7 midfielders in the past 4 drafts, taken inside the first round, 8 in the past 5 years if you consider Cuningham a midfielder. The oldest of them is 22, 23 if you include Cuningham.

Now we have to develop them.

 

[Accidental genius]

I certainly hope so, but Richmond thought that they couldn't win one without Deledio either.

Not to say that Deledio = Cripps, but overreliance on a player to rise when you need to rise (St Kilda and Nick Riewoldt, Richmond and Deledio, WC and Matthew Priddis, us and Judd) leads to your team being simple to shut down and your side always looking to them to provide that spark. Richmond look to Dusty now, sure, but they also look to Prestia, Cotchin, Edwards, Houli. Deledio leaving made them a good deal less one dimensional.

It's never going to be a popular thing to say or suggest, but as I said before there are no guarantees in footy. The rough timeline is generally about 10 years, and it really depends on how soon you can get to the first tilt then how you recover from failing. If we can make it to finals and break through ahead of schedule (which can be done) then it could be as soon as 5-6 years; if it doesn't go to plan quite, then it could be as long as 12 and Cripps would be 32.

In any case, he will have been a cornerstone of turning this club around, a club captain and a 300 game player. That's not nothing.

our club has been talking about getting in good quality midfielders to help crippa for the last 2-3 years and we haven't really achieved that yet. We are still waiting on the potential of a few of our midfielders. I hope he doesn't of course but, as crush mentioned, crippa may run out of patience and head back west. Being a one club player and getting to 300 games are important but I think winning a flag is most important to players.

 

[Gethelred]

Not to mention, we are so loaded with KPP that can play back, forward or ruck that we are genuinely going to have to trade a few and/or delist a few more.

KPP is set, we just need to get them on the park over time and get the ball to them. Not to mention, I still want to see (while we still have Jones) a three way KPD-KPF-Ruck rotation between TDK, Jones and Casboult to try and create absolute hell for opposition ruckmen whilst fast-tracking TDK into AFL footy.

 

[Gethelred]

our club has been talking about getting in good quality midfielders to help crippa for the last 2-3 years and we haven't really achieved that yet. We are still waiting on the potential of a few of our midfielders. I hope he doesn't of course but, as crush mentioned, crippa may run out of patience and head back west. Being a one club player and getting to 300 games are important but I think winning a flag is most important to players.

Nah. It's a bigger concern for us, the fans rather than Carlton the club.

Let me put it this way; he's not going to Freo, is he? What's WC going to trade to get a KPP size midfielder who is the best inside mid in the comp, a captain, an inspirational player, X factor and someone who can rest forward at KPP size?

The contract would be one of the largest in AFL history, and it would hurt them more than it'd be worth to do it. It'd be players, good ones, and it'd be picks. So sure, we'll hear this bullshit in the media and we'll worry, the WC coach and list manager will make noise whenever his contract comes around to be renewed, but it would take them moving heaven and earth to get him to the extent that it just isn't worth it.

It'd be the trade that'd singlehandedly redefine the FA reciprocation formula. It'd also require Cripps to be less of a human than he seems to be.

 

[DangerousD]

I'd argue we always knew we would be, given how SOS structured our rebuild in terms of what positions he got in first.

KPP are harder to get, and harder to get right. We've time to play around with some smalls, provided the new list management team (in the wake of the coronavirus) can finish the job and work towards building the midfield around the talls.

Id say that SOS and others would have expected us to land some more senior quality players, but for either not being willing to overpay or players not wanting to come, we have had to go to the draft more than expected.

 

[Sharks On A Plane]

Nah. It's a bigger concern for us, the fans rather than Carlton the club.

Let me put it this way; he's not going to Freo, is he? What's WC going to trade to get a KPP size midfielder who is the best inside mid in the comp, a captain, an inspirational player, X factor and someone who can rest forward at KPP size?

The contract would be one of the largest in AFL history, and it would hurt them more than it'd be worth to do it. It'd be players, good ones, and it'd be picks. So sure, we'll hear this bullshit in the media and we'll worry, the WC coach and list manager will make noise whenever his contract comes around to be renewed, but it would take them moving heaven and earth to get him to the extent that it just isn't worth it.

It'd be the trade that'd singlehandedly redefine the FA reciprocation formula. It'd also require Cripps to be less of a human than he seems to be.

I don't think you know how free agency works.

 

[Gethelred]

I don't think you know how free agency works.

How did I know someone would say that?

I certainly do, and while it is a concern I rather think it's overrated as far as things go. Clubs can and have maneuvered themselves into a position to match opposition bids, forcing a trade, and there hasn't really been any players who are determined to burn their club like that.

 

[Metalcrusher]

How did I know someone would say that?

I certainly do, and while it is a concern I rather think it's overrated as far as things go. Clubs can and have maneuvered themselves into a position to match opposition bids, forcing a trade, and there hasn't really been any players who are determined to burn their club like that.

Jack Martin went through the PSD ....

 

[therubbernub]

I certainly hope so, but Richmond thought that they couldn't win one without Deledio either.

Not to say that Deledio = Cripps, but overreliance on a player to rise when you need to rise (St Kilda and Nick Riewoldt, Richmond and Deledio, WC and Matthew Priddis, us and Judd) leads to your team being simple to shut down and your side always looking to them to provide that spark. Richmond look to Dusty now, sure, but they also look to Prestia, Cotchin, Edwards, Houli. Deledio leaving made them a good deal less one dimensional.

It's never going to be a popular thing to say or suggest, but as I said before there are no guarantees in footy. The rough timeline is generally about 10 years, and it really depends on how soon you can get to the first tilt then how you recover from failing. If we can make it to finals and break through ahead of schedule (which can be done) then it could be as soon as 5-6 years; if it doesn't go to plan quite, then it could be as long as 12 and Cripps would be 32.

In any case, he will have been a cornerstone of turning this club around, a club captain and a 300 game player. That's not nothing.

What is cripps worth ? 3 Low first rounders? Take the emotion out of it and would you accept 3 quality young players instead of Cripps?

 

[Gethelred]

Jack Martin went through the PSD ....

Not FA. While players have been determined to leave before, FA hasn't been used as a mechanism to do so yet, and if people think that there will be a similar level of relationship breakdown between Carlton and Cripps as between Martin and GC there have to be considerable doubts about the current regime at Princes Park.

 

[Gethelred]

What is cripps worth ? 3 Low first rounders? Take the emotion out of it and would you accept 3 quality young players instead of Cripps?

Come on, it'd be 2 high first rounders, and a late first. He's an inside mid with leadership at KPP height, with a proven track record of rising when the going gets tough.

He's rarer a prospect than any other in the AFL. There's plenty of powerful players, plenty of hybrid tall/smalls, but there's only one Cripps. It isn't rose-tinted to suggest that we'd insist on something like that as a starting point. He's a pick 1+ more player, and there's only 3-4 of those running around at the moment.

 

[TheBlueCampaigner]

What is cripps worth ? 3 Low first rounders? Take the emotion out of it and would you accept 3 quality young players instead of Cripps?

No

 

[Metalcrusher]

Not FA. While players have been determined to leave before, FA hasn't been used as a mechanism to do so yet, and if people think that there will be a similar level of relationship breakdown between Carlton and Cripps as between Martin and GC there have to be considerable doubts about the current regime at Princes Park.

This is true, however, you are placing a lot of stock on the CFC regime. Will be a restricted FA in 2021. If we are still in the bottom 6 at this stage. Crippa will not be at CFC.

 

[Gethelred]

This is true, however, you are placing a lot of stock on the CFC regime. Will be a restricted FA in 2021. If we are still in the bottom 6 at this stage. Crippa will not be at CFC.

Don't agree, mate.

 

[Metalcrusher]

Don't agree, mate.

Just what I have been told by some of the boys mate.

 

[Jeremias]

Just what I have been told by some of the boys mate.

Come on MC.

I don't believe Cripps is going around telling anyone what he plans to do at the end of next year. He more than likely wouldn't even know himself.

 

[Metalcrusher]

Come on MC.

I don't believe Cripps is going around telling anyone what he plans to do at the end of next year. He more than likely wouldn't even know himself.

Not Carlton boys. Others that are a lot closer to him.

 

[therubbernub]

Come on, it'd be 2 high first rounders, and a late first. He's an inside mid with leadership at KPP height, with a proven track record of rising when the going gets tough.

He's rarer a prospect than any other in the AFL. There's plenty of powerful players, plenty of hybrid tall/smalls, but there's only one Cripps. It isn't rose-tinted to suggest that we'd insist on something like that as a starting point. He's a pick 1+ more player, and there's only 3-4 of those running around at the moment.

to be clear I was proposing 3 low first rounders as in under pick 10 for example

 

[Jeremias]

Not Carlton boys. Others that are a lot closer to him.

I didn't say anything about it being Carlton players.

 

[Gethelred]

to be clear I was proposing 3 low first rounders as in under pick 10 for example

That changes things, then.

We essentially agree. It'd want to be a fairly well established draft crop, though. Every year has top end talent, but you'd want to know precisely what you're getting for him before you make that trade.

 

[therubbernub]

That changes things, then.

We essentially agree. It'd want to be a fairly well established draft crop, though. Every year has top end talent, but you'd want to know precisely what you're getting for him before you make that trade.

I think we would have taken the deal in the 2018 crop. Even 2019 is looking pretty even after being unfavourably compared to 2018. To think we got the quality of Kemp where we did......

 

[DangerousD]

Not FA. While players have been determined to leave before, FA hasn't been used as a mechanism to do so yet, and if people think that there will be a similar level of relationship breakdown between Carlton and Cripps as between Martin and GC there have to be considerable doubts about the current regime at Princes Park.

I must admit that I threw up in my mouth a little when you suggested we won’t be challenging to 2025, I certainly hope you are wrong, but back on to the Cripps discussion above.

If Cripps ever decided to leave via FA we would obviously not get close to adequately compensation through the AFL, possibly forcing us to match any bid, but thinking we will then be able to get fair value imo is pure fantasy. The Crows forced a trade for Dangerfield and mostly pushed for greater compensation than they would have received from the AFL.

If we get to 2023-24 and we are no closer to a flag, we to have to respect the relationship with our captain and not block a trade to where he wants to go, so whilst we Wikileaks get more than what the AFL would offer, it would still be a long way short of market value.

In finishing, let’s start challenging in 2021-22 so none of our good players will want to leave.

 

[Gethelred]

I must admit that I threw up in my mouth a little when you suggested we won’t be challenging to 2025, I certainly hope you are wrong, but back on to the Cripps discussion above.

If Cripps ever decided to leave via FA we would obviously not get close to adequately compensation through the AFL, possibly forcing us to match any bid, but thinking we will then be able to get fair value imo is pure fantasy. The Crows forced a trade for Dangerfield and mostly pushed for greater compensation than they would have received from the AFL.

If we get to 2023-24 and we are no closer to a flag, we to have to respect the relationship with our captain and not block a trade to where he wants to go, so whilst we Wikileaks get more than what the AFL would offer, it would still be a long way short of market value.

In finishing, let’s start challenging in 2021-22 so none of our good players will want to leave.

The early days of any given set of communication or trade relationship leave themselves open to exploitation. The Danger 'trade' was 5 years ago now, and this kind of thing is done differently.

While clubs cannot hope to get overs in the way that used to encourage players to stay put, as the trade itself caused the club inquiring to bleed to obtain their man (the way things were done pre FA) players do not usually want their main club to be ruined by their leaving. If Cripps chooses to leave, I cannot see him seeking the trade to be for outrageous unders, and the compo formula is already under question; we would need to get something we are willing to take for him, or we match whatever bid is made (provided our list management is smart, and has maneuvered us on a position to do so).

Basically, if the position from the club is that pick x is not enough (band 1 compo after our first round pick; if we're bottom six when he decides to leave, picks 1-6) then we inform the opposition club that we are willing to match unless they provide another option; a lopsided trade in our favour, to go with the compensation, for example. The AFL have a tendency to avoid rocking the boat, there's every chance that they would allow something like that through.

This is reliant on the AFL to encourage shenanigans (or, if not encourage, condone it) and Cripps being willing to play along so long as he gets to where he wants to go.

 

[gab213]

I was told the same thing early last year, if we aren't finalists or close to it in 2021, he's gone. Will have to wait and see I guess, source was a mate. A lot of things get said, a lot aren't right and at other times they change.

 

[agro]

The AFL have a tendency to avoid rocking the boat, there's every chance that they would allow something like that through.

This is reliant on the AFL to encourage shenanigans (or, if not encourage, condone it) and Crisps being willing to play along so long as he gets to where he wants to go.

If it was for Essendon, but not for us.