Strategy The case for a third tall forward

[Forzaport]

Yep.

Butcher had been servicable in the first 3 games, and we faced a truly awful team with a severely undermanned defence. Seems like the perfect game for Butcher to get a bit of confidence up, and we ******* dropped him for Sam Gray, who has gone on to play what, 7 or 8 games without ever really having an impact on the result?

That decision to drop Butcher after round 3 torpedoed our entire season, and despite the few of us who were saying it looking like insane street-corner doomsday prophets at the time, it's now become bleedingly obvious that we were right all along.

You don't have to be a doomsday prophet to push the case for a third (in reality a second) tall. It's common sense and we're being found out over and over again.

 

[Pafcsince86]

Maybe we're tanking to get Hugh Goddard?

It's maybe time to recruit our hardwick for this tilt. Bit for **** sake play a tall forward and clurey while trengrove and carlile are out

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

If Ken doesn't want to play Butcher and Shaw then he has to play Harvey. It will probably rain next week so we wont pick a tall.

I watched the Magpies yesterday and Harvey played most of the 2nd half in the ruck. I no longer care what people say that he isn't ready.

He ran around the ground and pushed himself pretty hard. If he plays in the A's then we tell him that all he has to do is run between the goal square and the 50m arc with the only need to run up to the CHF square line when he is on the lead. He has to take all ruck contests in the 50m arc.

**** it enough is enough. Sam Gray and Wingard should not be played as marking go to forwards. Westhoff had to play CHB because we had no height. We lack height in our squad so the few players we have got with height have to play. **** this running power bullshit. Its winter we need height ad size as much as run.

Sick of the same shit week in week out for the last decade or more with not enough height and size in our side.

Stop bloody making excuses coaching staff. Ken is starting to sound like Choco. Stubborn and missing the bleeding obvious.

 

[tribey]

Maybe he's as pissed off as some of us are that he seems to be held to a much higher standard than others getting games.

It would **** with my attitude as well.

I didn't want to say this lest it devolves into "well if he's got that attitude he doesn't deserve a game!", but yes.

In the main he's always played better at AFL level than SANFL level, but to see Sam Gray essentially playing your position with maximum futility would kill what little spirit and confidence you had left.

 

[*PAF]

That's been the state of play all year.

Scapegoated him in the narrow loss to North and have been intent on inferior options ever since.

Agree. We wouldn't even get close to North atm.

 

[itisnt2hard]

I think its time. Now or never to bring in the Butch as oppotunities this year are fast running out.
Bring him in against Melbourne and see how he goes. I lost money today

 

[Killer Power]

I think its time. Now or never to bring in the Butch as oppotunities this year are fast running out.
Bring him in against Melbourne and see how he goes. I lost money today

The time was 2 weeks ago but better late than never.

 

[Power Raid]

the break can't come soon enough

 

[itisnt2hard]

The time was 2 weeks ago but better late than never.

Next weeks performance if he gets a spot will determine whether or not he may have been the difference. I just have the feeling we will bring one in but not Butch.

 

[Trewth]

Wait, we're gonna bring in spuds and guys that a greener than a live tree just because our structure needs someone over six feet tall? Really? Can anyone honestly say that Butcher, Shaw or Harvey deserve a spot in our best 22 based on form? We talk of guys who deserve there spots yet are willing to bring in guys purely based on their height and nothing else. That's stupider than a gold pass imo.

Kens hands are tied, he really has no other choice.

 

[Killer Power]

Wait, we're gonna bring in spuds and guys that a greener than a live tree just because our structure needs someone over six feet tall? Really? Can anyone honestly say that Butcher, Shaw or Harvey deserve a spot in our best 22 based on form? We talk of guys who deserve there spots yet are willing to bring in guys purely based on their height and nothing else. That's stupider than a gold pass imo.

Kens hands are tied, he really has no other choice.

His hands are tied because Mitchell and Gray have demanded their places in the team? We have had 3 shit performances in a row, something has to change. Players will get dropped and someone will come in.Why couldn't that be Clurey / Shaw / Butch? Also wouldn't surprise me to see a big name dropped to make a point (Hoff, Ebo, Chad).

 

[Seanybruz]

Kens hands are tied, he really has no other choice.

He has no other choice but to play two SANFL standard rookies ahead of anyone else that is fit on our main list?

We've been getting flogged in the clearances the last 3 weeks our mids look cooked but Newton can't get a game because we've loaded up on far too many smalls.

The selections are staggering & it's not just the tall/small debate, it's a matter of those 2 in particular obviously not being upto AFL football.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Wait, we're gonna bring in spuds and guys that a greener than a live tree just because our structure needs someone over six feet tall? Really? Can anyone honestly say that Butcher, Shaw or Harvey deserve a spot in our best 22 based on form? We talk of guys who deserve there spots yet are willing to bring in guys purely based on their height and nothing else. That's stupider than a gold pass imo.

Kens hands are tied, he really has no other choice.

Do Sam Gray or Kane Mitchell deserve a spot in our 22 based on form?

As tribey pointed out earlier, if Lobbe got injured and Renouf was coming off an 8ho game in the SANFL, Renouf would be straight in regardless of form.

You can't just disregard structure and doing it has really hurt our side. If we're going to be playing guys who aren't up to it, they at least need to be the players that will fit the best into our side. Picking a fleet of smalls because the coaching staff only consider 4 tall players to be in our best 22 at the moment is exactly why we are losing to teams like Essendon or Richmond.

 

[itisnt2hard]

Was he that bad again yesterday 1954? You usually attend just interested in your thoughts if you were.

 

[Power Girl]

Wait, we're gonna bring in spuds and guys that a greener than a live tree just because our structure needs someone over six feet tall? Really? Can anyone honestly say that Butcher, Shaw or Harvey deserve a spot in our best 22 based on form? We talk of guys who deserve there spots yet are willing to bring in guys purely based on their height and nothing else. That's stupider than a gold pass imo.

Kens hands are tied, he really has no other choice.

Can you honestly say that Sam Gray or Kane Mitchell deserve a friggen game let alone week after friggen week? If you are gonna play the let them have a turn they haven't earnt it game then let everyone including Butch and Shaw play .. it shouldn't just be for the hobbits.

 

[Trewth]

Sam Gray and Kane Mitchell aren't taking the place of Shaw/Butcher/Harvey. Shaw/Butcher/Harvey haven't done enough to warrant selection. But yeah, go ahead and pick them then get disgusted when they're not up to it.

 

[tribey]

Wait, we're gonna bring in spuds and guys that a greener than a live tree just because our structure needs someone over six feet tall? Really? Can anyone honestly say that Butcher, Shaw or Harvey deserve a spot in our best 22 based on form? We talk of guys who deserve there spots yet are willing to bring in guys purely based on their height and nothing else. That's stupider than a gold pass imo.

Kens hands are tied, he really has no other choice.

If Johannesberg Butcher or Masonic Lodge return less than 19 disposals and 1.1 in the next two weeks despite being targeted an awful lot inside 50 I'll put my cue in the rack and disperse quietly.

 

[tribey]

Sam Gray and Kane Mitchell aren't taking the place of Shaw/Butcher/Harvey. Shaw/Butcher/Harvey haven't done enough to warrant selection. But yeah, go ahead and pick them then get disgusted when they're not up to it.

Sam Gray played primarily deep as a faux key forward today and in the showdown.

It's not just about what another key forward can do but what they'd allow Schulz, Westhoff and our midfield to do.

 

[raman]

If Johannesberg Butcher or Masonic Lodge return less than 19 disposals and 1.1 in the next two weeks despite being targeted an awful lot inside 50 I'll put my cue in the rack and disperse quietly.

Butch will beat 1.1 in behinds alone.

 

[Macca19]

I think the lack of a 3rd tall defender is throwing our structure out more than a 3rd tall up forward.

 

[Trewth]

Sam Gray played primarily deep as a faux key forward today and in the showdown.

It's not just about what another key forward can do but what they'd allow Schulz, Westhoff and our midfield to do.

Sam Gray was Monfries replacement, but I digress.

I wholeheartedly agree with your second point, but none of our Magpies key forwards have done enough of what they're supposed to do to warrant selection. It's that simple.

 

[raman]

I think the lack of a 3rd tall defender is throwing our structure out more than a 3rd tall up forward.

It's all the same shit sandwich, considering the impact that the lack of the 3rd tall defender has on our options with Westhoff.

 

[itisnt2hard]

I think the lack of a 3rd tall defender is throwing our structure out more than a 3rd tall up forward.

I think our total lack of quality defence was 50% of our problem. 30% was we couldnt win a centre clearance and 20% was we couldnt win a contested ball. Think that adds up to a 100% in total. If we needed another tall today it was in our backline not our forward line.

 

[Macca19]

Do Sam Gray or Kane Mitchell deserve a spot in our 22 based on form?

As tribey pointed out earlier, if Lobbe got injured and Renouf was coming off an 8ho game in the SANFL, Renouf would be straight in regardless of form.

This is fine, but we didnt lose a tall forward, and have played with only 2 talls up forward since Round 4.

Picking a fleet of smalls because the coaching staff only consider 4 tall players to be in our best 22 at the moment is exactly why we are losing to teams like Essendon or Richmond.

Our midfield, or lack of it, is exactly why we are losing to teams like Essendon and Richmond. A 3rd tall forward doesnt fix us getting thrashed in contested possesions, clearances, tackles etc. like we have the last 2-3 weeks. Whilst I think having no 3rd tall up forward thwarted our chance of winning it in the 2nd half, it wasnt the reason we lost the game today.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Sam Gray and Kane Mitchell aren't taking the place of Shaw/Butcher/Harvey. Shaw/Butcher/Harvey haven't done enough to warrant selection. But yeah, go ahead and pick them then get disgusted when they're not up to it.

Who are they taking the place of then?

We're playing 4 talls. Richmond played 7. We got monstered in the air. We are losing games of football because we're going in too small. Do you feel like the output of Gray and Mitchell are enough to reverse the massive disadvantage we're having by going in too small?