Opinion The Collingwood Versus Port Adelaide Jumper Debate continues...

[jsdsgn]

You missed Port wearing the bars in a final against Richmond in 2014

My bad.

Speaking of prison bars, Cotchin deserved a stint for kicking into the wind that day.

 

[Shane Heard]

Port Adelaide Power are not the same entity as PAFC SANFL magpies and therefore have different jumpers and therefore can’t make a claim to wear the PA Magpie bars.

It’s very simple to understand even for the dumbest Power fan.

 

[doppleganger]

Port Adelaide Power are not the same entity as PAFC SANFL magpies and therefore have different jumpers and therefore can’t make a claim to wear the PA Magpie bars.

It’s very simple to understand even for the dumbest Power fan.

This was the case when Port entered.

But then they merged the PAFC magpies with Port Power, part of the "never tear us apart".

Port had a choice, remain as the Magpies in the SANFL or join the AFL and leave that behind.

25 years later is is boring that they keep bringing the same shit up.

The showdown has nothing to do with SANFL heritage, it is actually the opposite...basically signalling when the SANFL officially died and became a feeder competition.

They should be unifying the merged club under the new Teal, Black, Silver and White colours...even have the SANFL team play in the chevrons if that is the jumper of choice.

Or they could come up with a black, teal and silver prison bars jumper.

 

[Mr39]

You also missed the bars in the Port V Carlton clash wars game.

 

[mcgarnacle]

One Collingwood fan (the OP), says Port in the SANFL were a reserves side from 1997, which is incorrect given their AFL contracted players were drafted out to SANFL clubs due to fear Port would continue to dominate the comp.

Others says they were separate entities, ignoring the fact they were forced to become separate entities (see sentence above) and the whole 'One Port Adelaide' campaign to bring them together.

Cherry picking history to suit their own arguments.

Only one thing matters here. The identity of the club. Ask any Port Adelaide fan and they identify with the black and white prison bar. If you were to take a poll of Power supporters, I'm sure they accept that V with teal is their home guernsey, but like Sydney and Brisbane, they would like to honour their past as a club in front of the fans that matter, and for Port fans that's in a home showdown in front predominantly Port members, and Crows fans who would love to knock them off in it.

 

[sthmelb_dimmies]

This was an article I wrote recently and published on TheRoar. Unfortunately, they removed 900 words, changed lots of the rest of it and edited the title.

Regardless, here is the link to it (Time for Collingwood and Port to meet in the middle on 'prison bars' stoush)
and below is the FULL original article. I created my own thread due to the length of it.

-------------------------

The Collingwood Versus Port Adelaide Jumper Debate From A Pies Fan’s Perspective: An In-Depth History

In recent seasons the jumper debate between Collingwood and Port Adelaide has been the hot topic for AFL fans and journalists. It has become tiresome to constantly hear about the topic so naturally I chose to write a heavily researched article on the matter. The community created by AFL fans at times tends to be a toxic one where topics spiral out of control and facts and logic are scarce.

Recently, Port Adelaide put forward another request to wear their Prison Bar guernsey in the 2022 Round 23 Showdown against the Adelaide Crows.

It seems the conversation has been heavily simplified to a biased argument between the two fanbases of each club, with others effectively weighing in based on which of the two teams they hate less. Admittedly, you probably couldn’t pick two worse fanbases to have this debate with, with both clubs possessing some of the most fiercely loyal fans in the sport, and for good reason.

On one hand you have Port Adelaide – easily the most successful and famous football club in SANFL history with 36 premierships and 38 second-place finishes, both of which are competition records across the team’s 143-year history. After entering the AFL in 1996, they soon rose up the ladder to be competing for grand final spots in the early 2000s before claiming their only premiership in 2004. Another grand final berth a few years later was followed by a struggling decade, but the club re-emerged as a premiership contender in 2021, making a preliminary final.

Opposingly, Collingwood are long known as one of the most famous sporting clubs in Australia and have 15 V/AFL premierships from 43 grand final appearances, the latter being a record by a considerable margin, although a painful one for fans like me. The club is a financial powerhouse of the competition and possesses one of, if not the biggest, fanbases. Pies fans epitomize and thrive off the ‘us against them’ mentality and, if anything, their loyalty cannot be questioned.

The debate centers around the AFL not allowing Port Adelaide to wear their iconic black and white prison bar jumpers in the national competition. This is because Collingwood, who were in the current competition before Port Adelaide, claim ownership of the black and white colorway and stripes within the AFL. Port Adelaide has been recognized in the SANFL for over a century wearing these colours and their nickname in the competition is the same as Collingwood’s in the AFL - the Magpies. This seems a simple argument but is far from it. In order to address the roots of the topic, some facts need to be addressed which are often forgotten by both fanbases and the media, whether to twist the narrative or simply because most people cannot be bothered to research things before voicing an opinion.

Time for a brief history overview. What is currently the national competition began as the Victorian Football League (VFL) in 1896 as a breakaway competition from the Victorian Football Association (VFA) which was founded in 1877. The Collingwood Football Club had been the thirteenth club to join the VFA upon the club’s foundation in 1892 before it moved across to the VFL and participated in the competition’s first season was 1897. From the beginning of the club’s history in 1892 and continuing into the inception of the VFL, Collingwood wore black and white stripes which are principally identical to the current design. The home game jumpers of the club have varied in design over the course of its history but have always been based around the black and white stripes and have never introduced a third colour.

The VFL began steps toward becoming a nationwide competition during the 1980s as it oversaw both expressions of interest and formal applications of entry from clubs primarily in Western Australia, South Australia, and Queensland. A team from Los Angeles in America even applied, suggesting splitting matches across both countries however this was understandably dismissed. In 1982, South Melbourne relocated to Sydney and became the Sydney Swans; the first interstate team in the competition. In 1986, the West Coast Eagles and Brisbane Bears were granted licenses to enter the VFL which was soon renamed the AFL ahead of the 1990 season to signal the competition had truly become a nationwide one. Collingwood would go on to win the first AFL premiership in 1990.

The Port Adelaide Football Club was founded in 1870 and is the oldest football club from South Australia. They were a foundational club in the South Australian Football Association (SAFA) which was later renamed the SANFL. Now this is where the root of the argument lies: between 1870 and 1901, the club wore several different guernseys which ranged from blue and white hooped jumpers to a completely pink outfit, but these designs never included any black and white stripes or any black in general. It wasn’t until 1902 when the club adopted the Magpie emblem and their first black and white striped guernsey, which is 10 years after Collingwood was established with this identity. According to a newspaper article from ‘The Observer’ dated 26 April 1902, this change was made because of the excessive cost of dyes for their blue and magenta guernseys which kept fading. Their new black and white striped look became known as the ‘prison bar’ uniform due to the use of around half a dozen skinny stripes in comparison to between two and four wider stripes from Collingwood. Toward the middle of the century, Port Adelaide transitioned their guernsey to a look which was almost identical to the one Collingwood was using at the time and still uses today. In the late 1950s they then transitioned back into the prison bar look which has remained in the SANFL competition to this day.

One point that must be mentioned is that the South Australian representative team between 1881-1906 were the first known football club in Australia to wear black and white. Whether Collingwood ‘stole’ this design upon establishment in 1892, as current Port Adelaide chief Brian Cunningham believes, is unlikely and cannot be known. Black and white stripes are hardly a revolutionary design – almost every sporting league in the world has a team with them. However, this idea is completely separate to Port Adelaide and the SANFL and holds no weight in this conversation like some suggest.

In 1990 the Port Adelaide Football Club applied to become the first South Australian club in the AFL. Legal issues that arose meant that the Adelaide Crows would become the first club from the state in 1990. Port Adelaide would later join the competition in 1996, beginning participation in 1997. The club left the Magpies emblem to the SANFL team (which became the reserves team for the AFL side) and became the Port Adelaide Power, adding teal to the black and white colours in order to distinguish from Collingwood. When Port Adelaide entered the competition, a binding agreement was signed between the club and Collingwood conceding the black and white colours and Magpie emblem to Collingwood within the national competition.

In 2003 the AFL introduced an annual Heritage Round where teams were permitted to wear any style of guernsey from their history. For the initial season, Port Adelaide wore a black and white prison bar guernsey from 1914 which was perhaps the furthest from the Collingwood jumper than any other black and white style outfit in the history of the club. Still, it was met with contention and so in 2004 the Power donned one of the earlier mentioned magenta and blue jumpers seen in the 1800s. In 2005 the Power wore a white guernsey with blue hoops, which was their first guernsey ever worn in the SANFL in the 1870s. In 2006, the AFL Heritage Round adopted the ‘electrifying eighties’ theme which meant the Power were forced to sit out because their only guernseys in the 1980s were black and white ones too similar to Collingwood.

To ensure the successful and peaceful continuation of the heritage round – already a popular one amongst AFL fans - an agreement was signed by several parties which read: “The Port Adelaide Football Club has the option to wear a black and white stripe Heritage Guernsey for all AFL Heritage Round games allocated as Port Adelaide games only. The exception is a home game against Collingwood.” The agreement was signed by current AFL CEO Gillon McLachlan on behalf of the AFL (who at the time was the Chief Broadcasting and Commercial Officer), Eddie McGuire on behalf of the Collingwood Football Club (President at the time) as well John James (the Port Adelaide CEO at the time). The AFL Heritage Round fizzled out and its last official season was in 2008. Several teams have continued to wear throwback guernseys intermittently since then, but not in relation to any official league-wide Heritage Round.

Fast forward to 2020 and the AFL, with support given from Collingwood, allowed Port Adelaide to wear the prison bar guernsey during a showdown match against Adelaide on the provisor that the club was celebrating its 150th anniversary. This sparked debate whether or not the Power should be able to wear the guernsey in future showdowns and potentially other games, with Power president David Koch suggesting that part of the 2020 agreement was to continue discussions around allowing Port to wear the prison bar guernsey more frequently. Koch has gone on to suggest that the 2007 agreement be effectively invalidated due to the discontinuation of the Heritage Round, even implying that McGuire knew this would eventually happen and tricked Port Adelaide into signing the agreement. Koch elaborated to suggest this is an example of Victorian bias within the AFL.

Since then, the debate has evolved into a war between Collingwood and Port Adelaide fans as well as past and present club officials rather than who it really is between – Port Adelaide and the AFL. McGuire, Koch and outspoken former Power player Kane Cornes have spearheaded the debate in the media for their respective sides – hardly people you want representing you when rationality must be maintained. The three have aided in turning the conversation into a childish, insult-laden fight and as a result the topic has twisted into something it isn’t. A small group of Port Adelaide fans even claim they wore black and white before Collingwood did, perhaps conflating this with the aforementioned uniform of the colonial era South Australian representative team.

Earlier this year, the debate was reignited after the AFL approved the Sydney Swans’ red-V guernsey for 2022 away games in Victoria as a nod to their South Melbourne roots. It must be clarified that this is not the same situation as Port Adelaide find themselves in; primarily because the colours and jumper designs worn by Sydney have no clash with other clubs. One might say Port’s prison bar doesn’t clash with Collingwood’s, but there is of course a similarity far greater than one between Sydney and any other team. Additionally, and more specifically, South Melbourne simply relocated to Sydney and kept the team colours, unlike Port Adelaide who effectively created a new sub-franchise with a different emblem and colours in an entirely different competition.

The fact of the matter is Port Adelaide signed agreements and accepted lucrative deals in the 1990s to introduce the teal colour into their uniform and adopt the Power emblem. In doing so, they established that the Magpies and the Power were separate, split entities which were tied only by the history of the club and the fact that the SANFL team acts as the reserves team for the AFL side. Admittedly, however, the 2007 agreement was a step toward allowing Port Adelaide to recognize their origins as an organization and one that should be revisited due to the fact that the Heritage Round no longer exists.

Personally, I think it’s both plausible and a great idea for Port to wear their prison bar guernsey in Showdowns twice a year. This is what most fans want – it is logical and allows the team to honour the history of the club from which they derived. Furthermore, I also believe Port Adelaide should be allowed to wear the strip for any home games in South Australia if they wanted, barring when Collingwood visit. Some fans believe Port should be allowed to wear the guernsey anywhere they want. Whether or not you think this should be allowed, is it even necessary? The Port Adelaide Magpies have no history in any state other than South Australia and their only AFL premiership (2004) won in Victoria was whilst wearing the teal.

It's probably only a matter of time before the AFL approves the prison bar guernseys for showdowns, and this has my full support. Most logical Collingwood fans (yes, we exist) that I’ve spoken to think the same way – it has no bearing on the state of Victoria at all or any specific club bar Port Adelaide. At this point, the debate is not even about the idea of wearing the jumper at all, more so the fact that Port Adelaide must honour the agreements they’ve signed in the past. Perhaps the AFL has held back engaging talks in respect to Collingwood, meaning new Pies president Jeff Browne could hold the key to Port Adelaide’s wishes. Thus far he has stated he will not approve Port’s Prison Bar guernsey in the AFL upon any request, however, time will tell.

Too long; didn’t read

 

[Igavemyloveachicken]

As an addition, I found Kochie's recent remarks rather strange about removing PAFC from the SANFL competition, given the club's history is all he talks about.

I won't derail this thread by commenting on the potential push for Port Adelaide to have their team leave the SANFL.
The Port Board has a thread on this which will provide further insight.

 

[mcgarnacle]

I don't understand the appeal for some fans to wear it every week. PAFC have no history in Victoria. I genuinely think that if Kochie had his way, Port would wear it to every match and the whole idea of the Power would be non-existent.

What does this even mean?

What history do Collingwood have in SA? BY that logic, Collingwood should adopt a new strip when they play in WA, SA, NSW, and QLD because they have no history in these states. How about a green guernsey with blue hoops?

 

[Corn Cobbers]

Only time Port shouldn't be allowed to wear the Prison Bar is away games against Collingwood. That's how it works, in every other league, in every sport, throughout the entire world. You'd think the self described "Sporting Capital" would understand this?

Agreed, I hate that bloody teal jumper and only an idiot would confuse the two

This issue brought out the tosser in Eddie like no other

 

[jsdsgn]

What does this even mean?

What history do Collingwood have in SA? BY that logic, Collingwood should adopt a new strip when they play in WA, SA, NSW, and QLD because they have no history in these states. How about a green guernsey with blue hoops?

Think you're missing the point here. I went deeper into this in the OP

 

[jsdsgn]

One Collingwood fan (the OP), says Port in the SANFL were a reserves side from 1997, which is incorrect given their AFL contracted players were drafted out to SANFL clubs due to fear Port would continue to dominate the comp.

Others says they were separate entities, ignoring the fact they were forced to become separate entities (see sentence above) and the whole 'One Port Adelaide' campaign to bring them together.

Cherry picking history to suit their own arguments.

Only one thing matters here. The identity of the club. Ask any Port Adelaide fan and they identify with the black and white prison bar. If you were to take a poll of Power supporters, I'm sure they accept that V with teal is their home guernsey, but like Sydney and Brisbane, they would like to honour their past as a club in front of the fans that matter, and for Port fans that's in a home showdown in front predominantly Port members, and Crows fans who would love to knock them off in it.

The wording of the first paragraph is slightly confusing, I think there may be typos in there, but the SANFL side for Port Adelaide is in fact their reserves side, is it not?

 

[powerrrrrrrrrrrr]

This constant back and forth between port and Collingwood on this debate is getting a bit ridiculous really.

Personally, I don’t really care what we wear. Each year we get a more heated debate from our chairman regarding what we wear than what we do about an underperforming team. The focus from top to bottom should be on improving our team and winning premierships. This gurnsey debate every year is nothing but a distraction.

Time for the AFL to step in and either allow us to wear it during showdowns only or not at all. I think if they want to wear it twice a year that’s a reasonable request and has no impact on the pies. Make a final decision and take that decision out of the pies and port’s hands.

I may be wrong but isn’t the AFL the body that owns the legal rights to all team designs, colours and logo’s? If that’s the case, it’s up to the AFL to make the decision independent of Collingwood and Port as the clubs themselves do not own their designs although they represent and wear them.

 

[jsdsgn]

This constant back and forth between port and Collingwood on this debate is getting a bit ridiculous really.

Personally, I don’t really care what we wear. Each year we get a more heated debate from our chairman regarding what we wear than what we do about an underperforming team. The focus from top to bottom should be on improving our team and winning premierships. This gurnsey debate every year is nothing but a distraction.

Time for the AFL to step in and either allow us to wear it during showdowns only or not at all. I think if they want to wear it twice a year that’s a reasonable request and has no impact on the pies. Make a final decision and take that decision out of the pies and port’s hands.

I may be wrong but isn’t the AFL the body that owns the legal rights to all team designs, colours and logo’s? If that’s the case, it’s up to the AFL to make the decision independent of Collingwood and Port as the clubs themselves do not own their designs although they represent and wear them.

I agree with you, which is effectively why I wrote this article - it's become a cat fight based on insults and bias, spearheaded by Koch, Cornes, McGuire etc and the media, which is why I wanted to write something with the history of the topic.

The idea that PAFC should wear it in Showdowns is great as I stated, and anyone who thinks otherwise (Collingwood fans or otherwise) is just being stubborn for the sake of it.

 

[Kwality]

I agree with your general idea, but this doesn't hold as much weight as the fact that Port signing various agreements made it harder for themselves down the track to argue points like the one you have made.

Plus, the fact that other clubs joined in on the VFL sporadically means that, legally if anything, it does hold more weight than SANFL/TSL/WAFL etc, especially in this argument.

The record of State football is 95% local. IF we are interested in the history of our game, we need to accept the transition to a national comp has a number of steps, not the VFL became the AFL, records that are designed to protect ego's.

There is nothing legal about the history of footy. Honesty?

 

[jsdsgn]

The record of State football is 95% local. IF we are interested in the history of our game, we need to accept the transition to a national comp has a number of steps, not the VFL became the AFL records that are designed to protect ego's.

There is nothing legal about the history of footy. Honesty?

This is a complex debate which I think is separate; you have a point, but I think purely in terms of this argument (Prison Bar debate), the VFL transitioning into the AFL is quite important.

 

[Jackington]

The only dog I've ever had in this fight has been that seeing Eddie and Koschie (and to a smaller extent Ken) blow absolute gaskets over the ongoing drama is very entertaining. Just good for the soul, seeing these supposed intelligent businessmen act like school children fighting over who gets to pretend to be Gold Yoshi or some schtick.

However, my real opinion is that any team should be able to wear whatever they want at home games, so long as it isn't designed to intentionally clash with the opponent. So if Port want to wear the prison bars eleven games a year - both showdowns and all home games except v Collingwood - then so be it. Who actually cares?

 

[jsdsgn]

The only dog I've ever had in this fight has been that seeing Eddie and Koschie (and to a smaller extent Ken) blow absolute gaskets over the ongoing drama is very entertaining. Just good for the soul, seeing these supposed intelligent businessmen act like school children fighting over who gets to pretend to be Gold Yoshi or some schtick.

However, my real opinion is that any team should be able to wear whatever they want at home games, so long as it isn't designed to intentionally clash with the opponent. So if Port want to wear the prison bars eleven games a year - both showdowns and all home games except v Collingwood - then so be it. Who actually cares?

Well, like I said, I agree that I couldn't care less if they wear it for every game in SA. But, regardless of 'who cares', the real issue is the agreements that have been signed by Port, AFL & Coll, as discussed in the OP.

Boiling this down to a topic based on "who cares" is probably the reason why it has become such a cat-fight. It's far more complex than that and emotional feelings aren't really relevant in the discussion.

(This is not an attack on your post or your opinion, I agree with you).

 

[shintemaster]

The only dog I've ever had in this fight has been that seeing Eddie and Koschie (and to a smaller extent Ken) blow absolute gaskets over the ongoing drama is very entertaining. Just good for the soul, seeing these supposed intelligent businessmen act like school children fighting over who gets to pretend to be Gold Yoshi or some schtick.

However, my real opinion is that any team should be able to wear whatever they want at home games, so long as it isn't designed to intentionally clash with the opponent. So if Port want to wear the prison bars eleven games a year - both showdowns and all home games except v Collingwood - then so be it. Who actually cares?

My view is that the home team should be able to wear whatever they want and the away team should have to not clash with them. No if's but's or maybe's. Grand Final privilege of home top should go to the team that finished higher at the H&A conclusion as a reward.

 

[Jackington]

The record of State football is 95% local. IF we are interested in the history of our game, we need to accept the transition to a national comp has a number of steps, not the VFL became the AFL, records that are designed to protect ego's.

There is nothing legal about the history of footy. Honesty?

In terms of club success, I basically only go off of 1990 onwards for exactly this reason. Because otherwise Port SHOULD be able to count their premierships from before they joined the AFL. And Fremantle should be allowed to include East and South Fremantles. And West Coast can count Subiaco's and so on.

Using V/AFL history is cool for stats and nothing else.

There was no national draft until 1986 and no salary cap until 1987, and in 1990 the AFLPA signed a collective bargaining agreement, and the competition was renamed the AFL. Anything before that was a pay-to-win amateur state league (and that goes for all leagues).

 

[Kwality]

Port Adelaide Power are not the same entity as PAFC SANFL magpies and therefore have different jumpers and therefore can’t make a claim to wear the PA Magpie bars.

It’s very simple to understand even for the dumbest Power fan.

Just came from Alberton.

 

[Kwality]

In terms of club success, I basically only go off of 1990 onwards for exactly this reason. Because otherwise Port SHOULD be able to count their premierships from before they joined the AFL. And Fremantle should be allowed to include East and South Fremantles. And West Coast can count Subiaco's and so on.

Using V/AFL history is cool for stats and nothing else.

There was no national draft until 1986 and no salary cap until 1987, and in 1990 the AFLPA signed a collective bargaining agreement, and the competition was renamed the AFL. Anything before that was a pay-to-win amateur state league (and that goes for all leagues).

Probably best for a different thread - no need to hijack this thread.

 

[jsdsgn]

Probably best for a different thread - no need to hijack this thread.

It's a tricky one because it does hold at least a little relevance here, but at the same time it's also impossible to begin discussing it without creating a whole new topic within itself.

 

[Kwality]

It's a tricky one because it does hold at least a little relevance here, but at the same time it's also impossible to begin discussing it without creating a whole new topic within itself.

 

[GoldbergsGold]

Earlier this year, the debate was reignited after the AFL approved the Sydney Swans’ red-V guernsey for 2022 away games in Victoria as a nod to their South Melbourne roots. It must be clarified that this is not the same situation as Port Adelaide find themselves in; primarily because the colours and jumper designs worn by Sydney have no clash with other clubs.

Never understood that faulty argument. West Coast wore a uniforn for one match that were the same colours as Richmond with the same sash design, only inverted, which Richmond would later wear, too. No one cared. Going by your logic, only Richmond should be allowed to wear the sash with black and yellow, but that wasn't the case.

 

[jsdsgn]

Never understood that faulty argument. West Coast wore a uniforn for one match that were the same colours as Richmond with the same sash design, only inverted, which Richmond would later wear, too. No one cared. Going by your logic, only Richmond should be allowed to wear the sash with black and yellow, but that wasn't the case.
View attachment 1470961View attachment 1470962

This is a false equivalence....if West Coast wanted to wear that guernsey for every home game, or whenever they wanted, then it would be the exact same discussion as the Prison Bar one, but with 2 different teams. Wearing it for 1 game didn't matter.

Plus, I said that I'm happy for Port to wear the Prison Bars. I only brought up the Sydney thing because it was topical at the time, and sparked discussion.