The end is nigh for Bentick, Wiggins, Russell and Fisher (and possibly Cloke)

[AlecDuncan]

Beside what point?, if they get deisted they still have to be replaced. Don't underestimate the rookie list. AJ, Betts, Garlett who are all playing well for our seniors side and sauce.

They can only be replaced by other rookies (but actually, they don't have to be), and they don't free up senior positions - where the mandatory 3 draftees, Joseph and any trade targets have to fit. The senior list is what we need to worry about.

BTW, I agree with Pfeiffer and Bentley going. I can't see any real upside to these guys.

 

[AlecDuncan]

Hartletts contract is up this year i'm pretty sure. I really hope he gets a game!

Well, that's the other angle - when do contracts expire for the various players? That might change my order a little. Bannister's expires this year - he might be unlucky.

 

[Jimthegreat]

I think that with this being the last year of 'an uncompromised' draft somewhat (even though GC17 gets all the best 17 year old kids this year) that we have to make one final rather 'severe' cut to the list, especially in light that this is probably the last time any club will find some 'depth' in the draft in the 3rd or 4th rnds of the national draft etc, and in light of our rather good form in the past month or so, without any of those players playing mostly (Fisher came in for one game and JR got dropped 2 weeks ago) I would have to say that the time for club stalwarts Adam Bentick, Simon Wiggins, and Brad Fisher is almost certainly up, at years end.

I think it's clear that Bentick is a certainty to be delisted, and I think Wiggo should hopefully retire, and I think the game has probably past Fisher by, he looked very sluggish and ineffectual against the Lions, and at his age, with all his injuries his had, I think that his time will probably come to a close at the end of the season, some other club might pick him up, but I would have to say, that dropping Fisher to the VFL for most of the season has been a terrific move, in that it's given Aussie more game time and a chance to thrive and shine, and yeah the success of Austin, even though he is playing down back, spells the end of Fisher for mine at this club (and I'm not really knocking him, he's been a good solid player for the club, but the club has to make tough decisions)

As for Jordan Russell he is contracted to 2010 (sigh ...) however I am optimistic either we can try and manafacture a trade to Port Adelaide to try and get Shaun Burgoyne to the club (well obviously we'd have to throw in a couple of picks as well) or we retain him on the list next year, and leave him 'unprotected' so GC can claim them as their 'uncontracted player' from Carlton ...
The success of Aaron Joesph, and the fact Mitch Robinson, Chris Yarran will get more from next year etc, and that we have eventually got Waite, Walker and Warnock to come back to this team means that there is no room for Jordan Russell anymore in the starting 22, not even as an emergency.

I don't want 'indulge' in needless JR bashing again, but i think especially with Grigg coming back and hitting his straps last week, that it would be nigh on impossible for Jordan Russell to come back into this side, and I'm happy for Jordan Bannister to 'take JR's role somewhat', since he played pretty well against St.Kilda.

I think honestly though if we can arrange a trade for someone probably a SA club for Jordan Russell, we should do it, because I think from now on, there will be very limited oppotunties at Carlton for him, and a change of club, and away from so many critical supporters would be good for him (he would still be good enough for AFL level IMHO, but he's probably not a good fit for the Blues where we are at)

Bit unsure as well as to Cloke, I would suggest the club might retain him for another year, just as 'insurance' in case some of our other bigger type players get injured, and no, i don't think he should ever ruck again, he is more suited for a CHF type floating role.

I do love the Chief, being a great clubman, but honestly I think he's time is up, his a very courageous and great contested marker, but his kicking/set shots at goal is woeful, and i think we need to try and free up another spot on the list for another kid from the national draft ...

Edwards, Hartlett and Joe Anderson would be others on the list that would be in trouble for next year IMHO.

I know it's too early to talk about 'delistings'/list management etc, but from my own personal opinion is that we shouldn't try and play any of those players I mentioned (except possibly Cloke) unless we get decimated with injuries. The future is kids/youth, and the more games we get into the likes of Aussie, Grigg, Browne etc the better for their development and experience, which means that some veterans and long term players at this club have to be expendable.

Before you talk delisting try remembering who is still contracted. They won't be delisted. Rules out Russell, Fisher and Cloke. People never think of that.

Fisher old? 24-25? Kicked 40 from 19 games in 2007. High 20's last year from as many shots, just didn't kick as straight. That's after playing up the ground alot. On top of that he still led our marking stats for the season. Slow start this year but finding form. With a lack of forward options we can't afford to get rid of someone capable of 30-40+ goals. Should be played in a FP close to goals with his marking.

Delisting 6 players will be mighty hard. Someone will be very unlucky. Hartlett and Edwards are gone. Bentick, Wiggins, Bannister, all out of contract will be unlucky if they go. Fair chance, if that the case, one will be redrafted through the PSD.

 

[AlecDuncan]

Before you talk delisting try remembering who is still contracted. They won't be delisted. Rules out Russell, Fisher and Cloke.

Cloke has a 2 year contract? That's a problem.

 

[Jimthegreat]

I did, and I'm a Bannister fan. Like I said:

"Not that I want Wiggins or Bannister gone, but it's a harsh world."

You might argue Russell and Fisher should go before Bannister, but that doesn't leave him far behind, does it? As it happens I think he's safe for another year because we won't be turning over large numbers on the list.

We have to have 3 picks in the Draft under AFL rules. Then, on top of that thete's Rookie elevations. AJ is one, then there's others. Garlett can be a nominated Rookie for another year. Means possibly 6 players although we might get away with 5.

 

[Jimthegreat]

Cloke has a 2 year contract? That's a problem.

One more year to go. Besides forward options we lack so we can't get rid of them all in the short term. Drafted KP players will take a few years to develop.

 

[BlueFeaver]

Some tough calls will need to be made at seasons end.

Looking at it logically and based on other poster opinions I can see the the following changes/happenings to our list:

Definites
Bentick - delisted due to no trade value.

Cloke - delisted due to no trade value and game being to fast for him

Wiggins - delisted, but still around the club in a mentor type roll and play with the Bullants

Houla & Fisher - offered up as trade, they can only play in one direction

Edwards - excellent athlete, but as another poster suggested he seems to lack the intensity to reaaly compete......and also he not a true KP player meaning he can't take advantage of the shortage on our list.

Playing for their careers
Anderson - being overtaken by Armfield, Brown and Joseph. May stay as depth player or could even be a trade option.

Bannister - I like the guy and is a true utility.....I hope he makes it.

Russell - not many like the way he plays and accuse him of stuffing up all the time.......his disposal efficiency is up around 85%. In saying that he is a black or white player, when he plays defensive he does not get the ball at all and when he is given a role to be more creative and to hunt the ball himself he forgets about his opponent...........will not be delisted, but will no doubt be a tradeable option.

Roughy
Thornton - traded to another club for a 1st round draft or a KP player from another club.

Safe due to list management issues:

Setanta & Hartlett - Setanta has played well these past couple of games and I could see him really becoming a key part of the forward structure. Hartlett is a bone of contention for many due to his injuries, but one thing remains for him is he is one of the few geniune KP size forward players on our list and out of many others he deserves another year due to many years of suffering injury set backs. I personally belieive there is room in F50 for Fev, Stetanta, Hartlett and Waite who would play a HFF/Wing role.

Cheers all.

 

[Jimthegreat]

Some tough calls will need to be made at seasons end.

Looking at it logically and based on other poster opinions I can see the the following changes/happenings to our list:

Definites
Bentick - delisted due to no trade value.

Cloke - delisted due to no trade value and game being to fast for him

Wiggins - delisted, but still around the club in a mentor type roll and play with the Bullants

Houla & Fisher - offered up as trade, they can only play in one direction

Edwards - excellent athlete, but as another poster suggested he seems to lack the intensity to reaaly compete......and also he not a true KP player meaning he can't take advantage of the shortage on our list.

Playing for their careers
Anderson - being overtaken by Armfield, Brown and Joseph. May stay as depth player or could even be a trade option.

Bannister - I like the guy and is a true utility.....I hope he makes it.

Russell - not many like the way he plays and accuse him of stuffing up all the time.......his disposal efficiency is up around 85%. In saying that he is a black or white player, when he plays defensive he does not get the ball at all and when he is given a role to be more creative and to hunt the ball himself he forgets about his opponent...........will not be delisted, but will no doubt be a tradeable option.

Roughy
Thornton - traded to another club for a 1st round draft or a KP player from another club.

Safe due to list management issues:

Setanta & Hartlett - Setanta has played well these past couple of games and I could see him really becoming a key part of the forward structure. Hartlett is a bone of contention for many due to his injuries, but one thing remains for him is he is one of the few geniune KP size forward players on our list and out of many others he deserves another year due to many years of suffering injury set backs. I personally belieive there is room in F50 for Fev, Stetanta, Hartlett and Waite who would play a HFF/Wing role.

Cheers all.

Like other's mistakes in their posts, some are still under contract. Hence they won't be delisted and unlikely to be traded.

Hartlett's done nothing, out of contract and sure as eggs will be delisted. Have Cloke and Fisher before him 10 times over.

 

[BlueFeaver]

Like other's mistakes in their posts, some are still under contract. Hence they won't be delisted and unlikely to be traded.

Hartlett's done nothing, out of contract and sure as eggs will be delisted. Have Cloke and Fisher before him 10 times over.

Yes Hartlett has shown nothing in his mear 8 games due to no consistancy in his football due to injury..........I beleive there is still a little hope for Hartlett.

Cloke offers nothing, not even a contest.

Fisher can mark, but can't kick, handball, chase, tackle, is far to slow and has no physical pressence.

Cloke and Fisher are both at their absolute peak and will not improve further. Hartlett is still young in KP terms and atleast has some opportunity to improve......yes he may not, but atleast there is a chance unlike Cloke and Fisher.....

 

[AlecDuncan]

We have to have 3 picks in the Draft under AFL rules. Then, on top of that thete's Rookie elevations. AJ is one, then there's others. Garlett can be a nominated Rookie for another year. Means possibly 6 players although we might get away with 5.

Joseph is the only rookie we have to promote. I think it'll be 5 delistings tops. That means 4 kids in the national draft and no-one in the PSD.

 

[AlecDuncan]

One more year to go. Besides forward options we lack so we can't get rid of them all in the short term. Drafted KP players will take a few years to develop.

If it's a choice between dumping Hartlett, and paying out Cloke's contract, I'd take the latter. It's not like he's on a packet.

 

[CarltonFan]

Cloke, Wiggo can go, no doubt.

Play Fisher against the Bummers next week, if he doesn't impose himself on the game and aid us un a victory, delist him seasons end.

I like Bentick alot, but unfortunately our rookies have superceded him, i reckon trade off Bentick and Russell to someone like Adeliade or Port, both will do well there, and left get a handy defender.

We seriously need another decent KPF. If Fisher plays like a pisher next week, he may be worth trading with Hartlett for a reasonabe forward type player if we can get one.

But I can easily see Russell, Fisher, Cloke maybe living in Gold Coast next year. Maybe even Hooupla.

so you want to play a man down next week against the bombers just to confirm that Fisher is definetly a dud...

nah.

 

[parrot]

Tough seeing players de-listed who have given their all for our great Club. But it's just a reality. We have a very talented list, developing nicely, and there'll always be a small group unable to progress with the majority.

Cloke's role in the team has completely disappeared, and he won't play again unless we have a huge run with injuries. He was initially used as a makeshift ruck, and now Kruezer and Hampson have taken over, with Jacobs and Warnock on the sidelines. So he's our 5th ruck option right now, and maybe even 6th i.e. after Setanta. So he' a ruck no more. CHF? The role of the pack-busting, lumbering CHF is almost gone in the modern game. As soon as the ball hits the ground, the rebound factor is just fatal. Kruezer, Setanta, Hampson and maybe Austin are all ahead of him for a CHF role. These guys are brilliant at ground level as well as being 194 to 201cm. They also have versatility, whereas Cloke can't be moved into defense and is too short for the centre bounce.

Wiggins? Like his attitude, and attack on the footy, and his pack marking. But his kicking is so bad it costs us too much. He reliably misses shots from 20m out, and his field kicking causes turnovers and goals. He just can't seem to improve that part of his game.

Fisher. Well, it's obvious Ratten has lost patience with the guy. He was not an automatic selection this year, and we did OK without him. There's a lot of talent queuing up for a shot in our forward line, and he's fallen behind others.

Bentick. Gone. Our midfield is the most talented in the AFL now, and he's not close to making it. He'll get a game at quite a few other Clubs though, and suspect he'll continue his career elsewhere.

Russell. Does have talent, but is running out of chances fast. Ratten gave him a huge extended opportunity, but now's going to have to prove himself to get back. Will struggle.

 

[Beloved]

You could have summed up the JR sentiment in one line you twit

His venteta for Jordan continues.

I'm surprised that you haven't added Kade Simpson to the list, c_p.

 

[Beloved]

One more year to go. Besides forward options we lack so we can't get rid of them all in the short term. Drafted KP players will take a few years to develop.

When Clokey is in form, he is an asset to the club. He kicked 5 a few weeks ago so he's still capable of kicking goals. With Waite out, could we possibly use him as a defender like the beginning of last year?

 

[DamianBis]

EBIAC. in no way is cloke a defender at all. the only thing he ever did was drop back after ruck contests and either take the resting ruckman or be loose man in defence. kruezer could do that fine. as could hampson. so we don't need him.

 

[celtic_pride]

His venteta for Jordan continues.

I'm surprised that you haven't added Kade Simpson to the list, c_p.

I'm not having an 'vendetta' but I am being a 'pragmitist, and sometimes being pragmatic, hard/tough decisions have to made ...

Do you not deny that the team has been performing better since JR has been dropped ??

What possible role or purpose does he serve now that Jordan Bannister is back in the side, and the rise and emergance of Aaron Joesph ???

Who right now from the team last week should be dropped for JR anyway ?

He does not fit into our future plans, has had plenty of chances, but has not delievered ...

Unless we get hit by injuries badly in the next month or so, I don't expect to see Russell back in the squad anytime soon, i think the MC have finally woken up and realised we are better off without him, and the facts/results since he has been dropped would vindicate me on that opinion.

 

[Blue Dimension]

When Clokey is in form, he is an asset to the club. He kicked 5 a few weeks ago so he's still capable of kicking goals. With Waite out, could we possibly use him as a defender like the beginning of last year?

Cloke is a liability, and I have said this over and over EBIAC. When many people saw Cloke as our next CHF i pointed out that his weaknesses would hurt us when playing against teams that could exploit it, and that is exactly what happens (i.e. Hawthorn, Fremantle, Essendon).

Cloke in the backline? No offense here bud but you've got to be kidding. Cloke is so slow, they'd get the ball, run rings around him and then kick the goal.

He's got heart, we can definitely all see that, but he won't have much of a future and I will be very surprised if he's still on the list beyond this year. The only thing that may save him is our lack of KPP forward talent. But even then, we're likely to chase this type of player in the off season and it is likely there will be minimal need for his services.

Fisher is still by far a better player than he is, and yet he gets canned consistently on this forum. Personally I'm still appalled that Cloke got as many games ahead of him in the earlier in the year as he did.

 

[blue gunslinger]

I know you guys have heard it before but my number 1 ask is-
Ellard of course
Wasting away on the Ants. Elevate him, play him or cut him adrift. Other similar players in limbo as well. What is the point of having them and not playing them?

 

[CarltonLegends95]

Some tough calls will need to be made at seasons end.

Looking at it logically and based on other poster opinions I can see the the following changes/happenings to our list:

Definites
Bentick - delisted due to no trade value.

Cloke - delisted due to no trade value and game being to fast for him

Wiggins - delisted, but still around the club in a mentor type roll and play with the Bullants

Houla & Fisher - offered up as trade, they can only play in one direction

Edwards - excellent athlete, but as another poster suggested he seems to lack the intensity to reaaly compete......and also he not a true KP player meaning he can't take advantage of the shortage on our list.

Playing for their careers
Anderson - being overtaken by Armfield, Brown and Joseph. May stay as depth player or could even be a trade option.

Bannister - I like the guy and is a true utility.....I hope he makes it.

Russell - not many like the way he plays and accuse him of stuffing up all the time.......his disposal efficiency is up around 85%. In saying that he is a black or white player, when he plays defensive he does not get the ball at all and when he is given a role to be more creative and to hunt the ball himself he forgets about his opponent...........will not be delisted, but will no doubt be a tradeable option.

Roughy
Thornton - traded to another club for a 1st round draft or a KP player from another club.

Safe due to list management issues:

Setanta & Hartlett - Setanta has played well these past couple of games and I could see him really becoming a key part of the forward structure. Hartlett is a bone of contention for many due to his injuries, but one thing remains for him is he is one of the few geniune KP size forward players on our list and out of many others he deserves another year due to many years of suffering injury set backs. I personally belieive there is room in F50 for Fev, Stetanta, Hartlett and Waite who would play a HFF/Wing role.

Cheers all.

Bentick gone
Cloke development was screwed up at the start of his career so he is too slow to play chf and too small to play ruck gone

wiggins-tell him to start kicking straight or no spot in the team because younger players will beat him, traded to a stupid team or delisted
Houlihan will stay

fisher up for trade or given one more year to prove himself while our young forwards that we draft this year will come through

Edwards gone

russell traded to port for a 3rd round pick or player

anderson will stay just needs more consistency with his footy
setanta safe for one more year
hartlett needs to get over his injury problems or we could do a package with him and JR to port

 

[wdgann]

Please explain what was so 'wrong or negative' about my post ?

I think that the club should make more room/load up on kids in the last uncompromised draft, and that my observations is that the club is playing better/more positive football without those 4 or 5 players, so from a list management point of view, it's time to move them on.

What got Carlton into trouble in the late 90's was holding onto the older players (admittedly some of whom were great champions of the club) and not getting enough kids through the draft.

The depth of the draft is going to be sucked dry from next year onwards for several years due to the expansion clubs, so the more free spots we have on the list for young players/kids from the draft the better (although it is a guessing game at this point whether the youngsters will be any good or not)

The harsh reality is, players like Wiggins, Bentick and Russell will not help win this club a premiership, so it's probably best to move them on.

I agree with many of these assertions. Carlton's 'John Elliot boys club' style reluctance to trade older players e.g Bradley contributed towards the dark years from 1997 until 2008 - granted we made the grand final one of those years but were never really a standout premiership chance. Every year, we should look at our list of players and look to trade those where we have a lot of overlap. Our current list has a strong midfield so Bentick should be traded or delisted. Other players can step up and do Russell's job and he still has the 'top 10 draft pick' tag on him so he is worth a bit of currency. Nick Stevens at 29 is another one although I don't think anyone would want him. Likewise Thornton - don't think anyone would want him either

 

[Malifice]

Russell: Massive dud, so overrated by many on this board.

Are you serious? Who?

 

[Blue Dimension]

Bentick gone
Cloke development was screwed up at the start of his career so he is too slow to play chf and too small to play ruck gone

wiggins-tell him to start kicking straight or no spot in the team because younger players will beat him, traded to a stupid team or delisted
Houlihan will stay

fisher up for trade or given one more year to prove himself while our young forwards that we draft this year will come through

Edwards gone

russell traded to port for a 3rd round pick or player

anderson will stay just needs more consistency with his footy
setanta safe for one more year
hartlett needs to get over his injury problems or we could do a package with him and JR to port

Agree with all of this. Good summary. Although, judging Bentick is difficult after being injured for half a season. Dare i say he would have been playing had he not been injured. Hadley's form slump would have opened the door. He's nowhere near as bad as half of the people on this forum make out.

 

[ParaBellum]

No mention of Hadley in this thread so far.

 

[AlecDuncan]

Agree with all of this. Good summary. Although, judging Bentick is difficult after being injured for half a season. Dare i say he would have been playing had he not been injured. Hadley's form slump would have opened the door. He's nowhere near as bad as half of the people on this forum make out.

True, but sadly I think the knee is terminal.