The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast *MB thread*

[Cyclops]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Notice how people acknowledge a complete lack of evidence, right before they say "but West Coast clearly have a drug problem"..

Even the most evasive cluib statements are now conceding there is drug use. This is mostl;y in respinse to the beat up. If there were no subsatnce to the beat up they could deny the whole thing safely.

Present something solid..

Wrong forum to ask for that. Maybe you could start us off with your real name, and home phone number?

Worsfold is satisfied that, while he can't guarantee the list is 100% clean, drug use is not sufficiently widespread to constitute a "drug problem".

He's confident the list is clean, but has stopped short of guaranteeing it, because no coach can make that proclamation with any authority..

He's employing semantic and legalistic tactics to avioid answering blunt questions.

If you want to talk about semantics, tell me how widespread the problem has to be in order for the phrase "drug problem" to apply..

Apparently suspending two players within a month is the going rate.

Yeah right.

These little synopses aren't actually a substitute for real evidence.

Wrong forum fotr that.

Based on what?

I would accept that - purely on the balance of probabilities - some West Coast players have used illicit drugs at some point.

To make the charge that there is a "drug problem", you'd have to show that that number far exceeds the equivalent number at other clubs.

I'm not sure how you'd do that.

You could pick up a paper and see which one is getting pasted by the media. Thats about the standard of this place. You could accept the bland evasions of the club officials but thats boring.

Most of what is going is a beat up, there's no doubt. There's also damage control from the club, and idiot speculation on footy sites from people with serious names like Gunnar and Cyclops.

At the heart of it is a club where players have behaved unusually off-field many times over recent years. This isn't a "Tony Shaw buys milk-is he pregnant?" sort of beat-up.

There's the possiblity drugs are not involved. This is worth considering. There have been multiple instances of mental illness in the one club recently (the two ex-Hawthorn boys at North for example). Its possible the percieved problem is alcohol fuelled. It may be that a combination of hero worship and media pressure has combined to create stories out of nothing. There are more unlikely explanations as well, I think thats the main possibilities covered.

There's no need for club supporters to explain their club's problems,or apologise for their failures. However if you're furioously beating down sparks of speculation on a footy website, you're pushing poo uphill. Especially given that the sparks are flying out of a very thick, dark cloud of smoke.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

But if you needed explaination you do not undertand the nature of journalism or how a story is developed....

Sure.

Can you explain it to me?

You're clearly the expert.

Wrong!

Dead wrong!!

This is inadequate.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Even the most evasive cluib statements are now conceding there is drug use.

Illicit drug use?

I haven't come across those statements - could you point them out to me?

Wrong forum to ask for that. Maybe you could start us off with your real name, and home phone number?

Why would I publish those details?

He's employing semantic and legalistic tactics to avioid answering blunt questions.

He was asked about the so-called drug problem and said he believed the list was clean.

How is he avoiding the question?

Wrong forum fotr that.

Wrong forum for what?

Evidence?

So baseless assumptions are OK?

There's no need for club supporters to explain their club's problems,or apologise for their failures. However if you're furioously beating down sparks of speculation on a footy website, you're pushing poo uphill.

Fair enough.

I just think there needs to be some kind of counterweight to the deluge of unifinformed judgement that constitutes 99% of what's been posted here.

 

[FuManchu]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

The "signals"?

I'll respond to confirmed reports - not innuendo.

People on this board are so desperate to believe that Cousins and the club have a drug problem that they've prematurely dismissed the possibility that drugs mightn't actually be the issue.

That just doesn't seem like a sound way of making a judgement.

Good on you, you live in that fantasy of yours, the same fantasy that West Coast are trying to portray, probably the same fantasy that in portraying, has prevented them dealing effectively with the problem and therefore reaching this situation which the club itself describes as its worst crisis in its 20 year history.

On the other hand, all the implied stories which you call innuendo, which have journo's publishing from one end of the country to another, the same innuendo that they probably wouldnt publish without good reason, (ie: they know something, but are just treading carefully), those implied stories which are closer to the reality than what the club has tried to delude its supporters with, its sponsors and the general footballing world, including the media, those implied stories, which the club dont deny but try and deflect, then I'll go with those.

When you finally pull your head out of the semantic sandpit in which you have buried yourself in and see what the rest, including a lot of west coast supporters see, (probably feeling disgusted that the club has treated them with contempt with all the manure they have been trying pass off as the truth), when you finally extract your head from this sandpit, where will this denial that you have afforded yourself, actually have got you?

No-one is telling you to abandon your club, they are just telling you your club is rotten from the inside in terms of discipline and accountability. And the big fish/small town syndrome has eaten away at the core values that we expect of organisations that pretend to be good corporate citizens, that take the publics money and purport to be all things good.

 

[moistie]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

No club can be 100% sure.

Paul Roos said as much recently.

Worsfold has come out and said that he's confident the club is drug-free, but you zealots are insisting that's an admission of the club's "drug problem".

That's ridiculous.

He's admitted that the club had a drug problem. Being a journalist I think you're capable of understanding that, but having made an arse of yourself you don't want to admit you're wrong.

How is it damning?

The senior coach has come out and said he believes the club is clean.

The club is "bordering on being drug free". That means there was a problem (which has now flown to Arizona) and there is still the potential for there to be an ongoing drug problem. If the club was totally clean he would have said "There is no longer a drug problem at the West Coast Eagles".

It is a bit rich for you to attack the journalists who broke these stories for previously not saying straight up "X has a drug problem" (which they are now doing to several Eagles) but then take such an ambiguous statement as concrete proof that West Coast do not have a drug problem.

I'll answer the question how I want to.

You don't get to dictate the nature of my response - especially when you're yet to present any evidence to support your knee-jerk claims.

So you don't want to answer because you don't want to say you believe these decorated journalists are printing unsubstantiated rumours about the issues facing West Coast.

So again Gunnar, why would they lie about this issue?

The journalists have a sniff of a big story and are promoting the most controversial elements. That's nothing new.

Firstly, I'm not denying anything. I'm merely asking for evidence to be presented so people can make an informed conclusion.

Lets see. Where is Ben Cousins at the moment? Is he in the courts with his defammation lawyer beside him? Or is he attending a drug clinic in the USA?

Ben Cousins in drug rehab

Secondly, show me the direct quote where a West Coast person has admitted the club has a "drug problem".

Eagles admit drug problem

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

He's admitted that the club had a drug problem.

Worsfold?

Why do you keep insisting this, when the direct quote I've presented suggests the exact opposite?

The club is "bordering on being drug free". That means there was a problem (which has now flown to Arizona) and there is still the potential for there to be an ongoing drug problem. If the club was totally clean he would have said "There is no longer a drug problem at the West Coast Eagles".

He can't guarantee it's 100% drug free.

He's being as emphatic as he can without exaggerating.

It is a bit rich for you to attack the journalists who broke these stories for previously not saying straight up "X has a drug problem" (which they are now doing to several Eagles) but then take such an ambiguous statement as concrete proof that West Coast do not have a drug problem.

I'm not attacking the journalists. I'm examining the information they've presented.

As for Worsfold's "ambiguous statement", I think it's far richer for you to insist it's an admission that we have a "drug problem" when he's saying the complete opposite.

So you don't want to answer because you don't want to say you believe these decorated journalists are printing unsubstantiated rumours about the issues facing West Coast.

So again Gunnar, why would they lie about this issue?

It's not a matter of lying.

It's a matter of running stuff they can't prove because they know it will make good copy.

Do I have to explain that?

Lets see. Where is Ben Cousins at the moment? Is he in the courts with his defammation lawyer beside him? Or is he attending a drug clinic in the USA?

Ben Cousins in drug rehab

And you know he's being treated for illicit drugs because....?

Eagles admit drug problem

Show me the direct quote where Gooding admits the club has a "drug problem".

Does he even use the phrase "drug problem"?

That phrase was inserted by a journalist, and has now been adopted by people like you who are desperate to believe the worst.

 

[Topdock65]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Everyone just ignore him ...

Eagle fans dont rate him .. Read the West Coast Board .

Eagles Flying High ... cant stand him ...


EaglesFlyingHigh :: View topic -There are ******** Eagles supporters like Gunnar Longshanks and Svenny, who either act like an arrogant prick or whiny bitch on BigFooty. ...
www.eaglesflyinghigh.com/viewtopic.php?t=7592&start=15 - 87k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages..

MR Q your all right ...

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Direct quotes from Worsfold:

"I'm very, very confident that the drug test he had on Monday will not be a positive," Worsfold said.

And separately:

“We are bordering on a club that is totally free from drug use. I believe our club is drug free at the moment but I can't guarantee it,” he said.

In light of these quotes, how are people getting away with reporting that the club has admitted both Cousins and the Eagles have a problem will illicit substances?

Don't these quotes from Worsfold suggest the complete opposite?

This feeeding frenzy has reached such proportions that people are claiming the club has said things it simply hasn't.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Everyone just ignore him ...

Eagle fans dont rate him .. Read the West Coast Board .

Eagles Flying High ... cant stand him ...


EaglesFlyingHigh :: View topic -There are ******** Eagles supporters like Gunnar Longshanks and Svenny, who either act like an arrogant prick or whiny bitch on BigFooty. ...
www.eaglesflyinghigh.com/viewtopic.php?t=7592&start=15

Why are you attacking me personally?

Are you incapable of engaging the issue rather than taking potshots at the poster?

Do you think this junk strengthens your argument?

If you have such a strong case, and if you're so clearly in the right, then why do you have to resort to this stuff?

 

[FuManchu]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

The club doesnt have a drug problem because

Cousins has been suspended
Kerr is on his 27th warning and fast approaching his penultimate warning and wouldnt dream of transgressing again
Chick was told to calm down
Fletcher was asked if he learnt anything from his experience
Gardiner was booted out
Embley sobered up
And woosha said they are nearly clean of drugs. Mind you he denied cousins drug problem the day Cousins checks into rehab.

Other than that, I dont see the problem

 

[MeeSo]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Classic thread

What sort of evidence would be sufficient to convince you that there's a problem?

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Classic thread

What sort of evidence would be sufficient to convince you that there's a problem?

We're talking specifically about illicit substances - not booze, not painkillers.

For me to be convinced that Cousins has a problem with illicit substances, I'd be looking for a positive drug test or a statement from the player or the club making that admission openly.

For me to be convinced that WC, as a club, has a "drug problem", I'd want confirmation that more players at WC use illicit substances than at other clubs. A rash of positive drug tests or an admission from the club that widespread drug use is a problem would suffice.

 

[FuManchu]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

We're talking specifically about illicit substances - not booze, not painkillers.

For me to be convinced that Cousins has a problem with illicit substances, I'd be looking for a positive drug test or a statement from the player or the club making that admission openly.

For me to be convinced that WC, as a club, has a "drug problem", I'd want confirmation that more players at WC use illicit substances than at other clubs. A rash of positive drug tests or an admission from the club that widespread drug use is a problem would suffice.

speak louder, the sand falling out of your mouth is muffling your words

 

[STATUEBRO]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Last night on channel seven news John Worsfold stated that he hopes that bens health improves, read between the lines people.

 

[douls]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

The club doesnt have a drug problem because

Cousins has been suspended
Kerr is on his 27th warning and fast approaching his penultimate warning and wouldnt dream of transgressing again
Chick was told to calm down
Fletcher was asked if he learnt anything from his experience
Gardiner was booted out
Embley sobered up
And woosha said they are nearly clean of drugs. Mind you he denied cousins drug problem the day Cousins checks into rehab.

Other than that, I dont see the problem

pretty good summary there
i don't see a problem at all at the club...

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

speak louder, the sand falling out of your mouth is muffling your words

Yeah, whatever.

My position has been consistent throughout this thread - show me the evidence that Cousins or the club has a problem with illicit drugs

No-one has managed to do that.

You've just convinced yourself that the media frenzy and sheer weight of innuendo somehow neutralise any requirement for real evidence.

The same tired lines about heads in the sand are still brilliant - but how about addressing my argument once in a while?

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Last night on channel seven news John Worsfold stated that he hopes that bens health improves, read between the lines people.

Oh wow - I'm convinced.

Worsfold also said:

"I'm very, very confident that the drug test he had on Monday will not be a positive."

And separately:

“We are bordering on a club that is totally free from drug use. I believe our club is drug free at the moment but I can't guarantee it."

Read between the lines. There's an admission in there somewhere.

 

[moistie]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Worsfold?

Why do you keep insisting this, when the direct quote I've presented suggests the exact opposite?

He can't guarantee it's 100% drug free.

He's being as emphatic as he can without exaggerating.

No. That is what you want to believe. Everybody else sees it for what it is, an admission there was and may still be a drug problem.

Bordering on ...

I'm not attacking the journalists. I'm examining the information they've presented.

Rubbish. You believe they're publishing these stories without proof. So why do you believe the most senior footballing journalists in the land would do that?

It's not a matter of lying.

It's a matter of running stuff they can't prove because they know it will make good copy.

So you do believe they would lie for a story and admit as much.

As a journalist you would never file a story without proof, am I right?

And yet, you believe the vast majority of the countries footballing journalists, AND a highly respected non-sporting journalist who broke the story, would run with it without proof? A story as damaging as this, with such a large potential for a civil suit and damage to their reputation if proven wrong?

And you know he's being treated for illicit drugs because....?

Show me the direct quote where Gooding admits the club has a "drug problem".

Does he even use the phrase "drug problem"?

That phrase was inserted by a journalist, and has now been adopted by people like you who are desperate to believe the worst.

Right... they press are making this up.

How about The Age editorial?

Last week, Mr Gooding said on the record that "a very small minority" of his players have had drug-related problems, and that it is a problem " … we're understanding … more and more every day".

You really have gone from strident, to farcical to pathetic in your denial. Take the next step Gunnar and move on to anger.

 

[Polo_14]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Oh wow - I'm convinced.

Worsfold also said:

"I'm very, very confident that the drug test he had on Monday will not be a positive."

And separately:

“We are bordering on a club that is totally free from drug use. I believe our club is drug free at the moment but I can't guarantee it."

Read between the lines. There's an admission in there somewhere.

Must be very hot for you today Gunnar, you know having your head buried under the sand and all.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Must be very hot for you today Gunnar, you know having your head buried under the sand and all.

How original.

Why don't you just start typing sand over and over?

That would be just as witty and inventive.

 

[STATUEBRO]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Oh wow - I'm convinced.

Worsfold also said:

"I'm very, very confident that the drug test he had on Monday will not be a positive."

And separately:

“We are bordering on a club that is totally free from drug use. I believe our club is drug free at the moment but I can't guarantee it."

Read between the lines. There's an admission in there somewhere.

Well you would hope it is a negative result for the drug test, they have had enough warning to get any substances out of their system and if it is positive, which we will never know unless he is suspended for a long time, which to me would indicate a serious problem. Worsfold wouldnt say that he is confident in a positive drug test.

 

[Polo_14]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

How original.

Why don't you just start typing sand over and over?

That would be just as witty and inventive.

Why dont you just deny deny deny.

Or instead of looking like a total ****bag, just admit you're wrong. \

 

[moistie]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

We're talking specifically about illicit substances - not booze, not painkillers.

For me to be convinced that Cousins has a problem with illicit substances, I'd be looking for a positive drug test or a statement from the player or the club making that admission openly.

A positive drug test that, under the AFLPA agreement, cannot be made public until it's his third strike....

For me to be convinced that WC, as a club, has a "drug problem", I'd want confirmation that more players at WC use illicit substances than at other clubs. A rash of positive drug tests or an admission from the club that widespread drug use is a problem would suffice.

Again, you'll be waiting a long time before the club admits it has a problem publically. The effect on the old biddies, and yourself, who cannot cope with "their boys" having a drug problem would damage the club and its money making potential.

Anyone with any sense can see that West Coast would be having some extremely stringent rules regarding off field behaviour implemented as wel speak, but anyone with any sense would also understand they would be keeping it entirely in-house.

As for drug tests being made public... it won't happen unless someone is stupid enough to get caught under WADA testing on game day, which is the only instance where it can be made public straight away. The AFL testing is still three strikes, remember?

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

No. That is what you want to believe. Everybody else sees it for what it is, an admission there was and may still be a drug problem.

Bordering on ...

He believes the club is drug free.

He said so.

You believe they're publishing these stories without proof. So why do you believe the most senior footballing journalists in the land would do that?

Don't tell me what I believe. You're not in a position to do that.

I believe they're covering a big story and competition is pretty hot for new information.

Just look at these reports that totally misrepresent Worsfold's actual comments.

The story is getting beaten up at every opportunity. That's what happens when a scandal breaks. Journalists are forced to make their story the most compelling, even if that relies on a degree of exaggeration.

And yet, you believe the vast majority of the countries footballing journalists, AND a highly respected non-sporting journalist who broke the story, would run with it without proof? A story as damaging as this, with such a large potential for a civil suit and damage to their reputation if proven wrong?

I just want to see the evidence.

How about The Age editorial?

What about it?

You really have gone from strident, to farcical to pathetic in your denial. Take the next step Gunnar and move on to anger.

There is a difference between denial and reserving judgement until real evidence is presented.

 

[Aussie Joe]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Or instead of looking like a total ****bag

He is what he is.