The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast *MB thread*

[Grandmaster_B]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

This whole issue of drugs in AFL, and of West Coast supposedly being the worst offenders, is a total beat-up.

Rumour and innuendo are no substitute for real evidence, but that hasn't stopped commentators from inflating this issue at every opportunity.

The Footy Show interview with West Coast chairman Dalton Gooding was presented as some kind of massive expose - maybe I missed it, but was anything actually revealed?

Gooding basically admitted their had been some discipline problems at the club, before saying the club wouldn't tolerate any more stuff-ups and that illicit drugs were unacceptable. What was the big revelation here? What else was he going to say? You'd get the same line on drugs and discipline from every chairman in the league.

This whole saga is marked as a beat-up by the complete lack of real information. I'm yet to see a shred of evidence that there is a "drug problem" in the AFL, or at West Coast or any other club.

Notice the way Hutchison kept referring to "a perception back East" that West Coast had a drug problem. That perception was emphasised because Hutchison had no actual evidence to use as a starting point for his questions. A perception - that's what's driving this beat-up.

I love the way commentators use "anecdotal evidence" to build their case. What does that phrase mean in this context? Rumour? Hearsay? In most reporting, that would not be sufficient to drive a story - but in this issue, that's considered a smoking gun.

Craig Hutchison spuriously linked Cousins getting locked up and Kerr assaulting a taxi driver with a supposed drug problem at West Coast. How does that work? Were drugs a factor in either incident?

Then there's the Fletcher incident. If anyone knows what happened in Las Vegas, then let's hear it. It's unsound to just assume it was a drug overdose in the absence of any real information?

Like I said - show me the evidence. Don't just recite unsubstantiated rumours or point to incidents that had nothing to do with drugs.

Quite frankly, I couldn't care less what Ben Cousins or any other player does or doesn't ingest in a nightclub. I have no interested whatsoever in this half-baked soap opera that surrounds players' off-field activities. The public appetite for this stuff mystifies me.

I thought most people follow football because they like the spectacle and the contest. Players will be judged on what they do on-field - and rightly so. Why is there such interest in everything else?

That said, the way this story about the "drug problem" has been manufactured needs to be pointed out.

People should demand some facts instead of just lapping up innuendo that feeds their dislike of the Eagles.

 

[lions_den]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

New low for GMB.

 

[Grandmaster_B]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

New low for GMB.

I knew you'd come in and sympathize with West Coke fans.


After all you did have that drug cheat Alistair Lynch on your team.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Define "drug problem".

How many players need to be implicated before a club can be said to have "a drug problem"?

Is one sufficient? Two? Three? How many?

At what point do the bad choices of a few individuals transfer across to their club as a whole?

 

[Black Flag]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Define "drug problem".

How many players need to be implicated before a club can be said to have "a drug problem"?

Is one sufficient? Two? Three? How many?

At what point do the bad choices of a few individuals transfer across to their club as a whole?

It only takes one player to potentially affect any other in the team. Hence the drug problem.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

It only takes one player to potentially affect any other in the team. Hence the drug problem.

So what are you saying? That one player with a problem means and entire club has a problem?

Did Sydney have a "discipline problem" when Hall was still playing? Or was it just one of their players that had the problem?

Do you see the point I'm making?

There's a difference between the individual having an issue, and that issue being ascribed to an entire club and playing list.

Does Carlton have an "anger management problem" because Setanata belted his team-mate? Or was it just a dumb decision made by one of their players?

 

[Grandmaster_B]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

It only takes one player to potentially affect any other in the team. Hence the drug problem.

Yes, but it was more than one.

We know of three confirmed scumbag addicts on their team - Cousins, Kerr and Chick.

And Chad Fletcher had that little mishap in Las Vegas.

And no doubt thats just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Yes, but it was more than one.

We know of three confirmed scumbag addicts on their team - Cousins, Kerr and Chick.

OK - but answer the question.

What's the magic number?

How many players need to be implicated before it's fair to ascribe a problem to an entire club and playing list?

Does Melbourne have a "domestic violence problem" if one of its players gets in troubled for mistreating his spouse? Or is it the individual who has an issue?

 

[lions_den]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Yes, but it was more than one.

We know of three confirmed scumbag addicts on their team - Cousins, Kerr and Chick.

And Chad Fletcher had that little mishap in Las Vegas.

And no doubt thats just the tip of the iceberg.

West Coast may have (or had) a drug problem, but Melbourne have the more serious problem of Jack Watts.

 

[Black Flag]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

So what are you saying? That one player with a problem means and entire club has a problem?

Did Sydney have a "discipline problem" when Hall was still playing? Or was it just one of their players that had the problem?

If Hall was actively encouraging others to follow his example, then yes, I would call that a problem.

 

[Grandmaster_B]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

OK - but answer the question.

What's the magic number?

How many players need to be implicated before it's fair to ascribe a problem to an entire club and playing list?

Does Melbourne have a "domestic violence problem"?

One of your club greats died of a drug overdose.

Its a miracle Cousins didnt join him.

I find it disturbing that any Eagles fan would turn a blind eye to what has gone on, or does go on at the club.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

If Hall was actively encouraging others to follow his example, then yes, I would call that a problem.

I wouldn't.

I'd say Hall was a malignant influence and the club should deal with it.

Besides, I don't know that Cousins was "actively encouraging" others to smoke crack. Do you?

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

One of your club greats died of a drug overdose.

Its a miracle Cousins didnt join him.

I find it disturbing that any Eagles fan would turn a blind eye to what has gone on, or does go on at the club.

What do you know about what goes on at the club?

Do you think that West Coast has a uniquely high instance of drug use among past and present players?

 

[Grandmaster_B]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

What do you know about what goes on at the club?

Cos its all over the news when it happens.

ie. Cousins drug escapades, Mainwarings drug overdose, Kerrs drug phone calls, Daniel Chick/Andrew Embleys punch ups due to differences of opinion relating to drugs



Drugs is the common theme.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Cos its all over the news when it happens.

ie. Cousins drug escapades, Mainwarings drug overdose, Kerrs drug phone calls, Daniel Chick/Andrew Embleys punch ups due to differences of opinion relating to drugs

Drugs is the common theme.

Isn't it fair to say the Chick/Embley punch-up was just a minor part of the whole Cousins saga?

And to what extent is a club responsible for the actions of past players?

If it's fair to tar West Coast with Mainwaring's drug overdose, then where does that leave Geelong with regard to Gary Ablett senior? Where does it leave the Roos with regard to Wayne Carey? Should those clubs cop it because an ex-player messed up?

I think that's untenable.

 

[Black Flag]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

I wouldn't.

I'd say Hall was a malignant influence and the club should deal with it.

Besides, I don't know that Cousins was "actively encouraging" others to smoke crack. Do you?

Yes, but it's still a club problem rather than confined to a particular individual.

Only West Coast know the answer to your second point. I'd think it would be fair to say that they believed there was a problem.

 

[Black Flag]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Do you think that West Coast has a uniquely high instance of drug use among past and present players?

Why do you find that improbable?

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Yes, but it's still a club problem rather than confined to a particular individual.

Huh?

Just think about what you're saying.

It's an individual's problem. To ascribe that to the dozens of people that comprise a footy club is illogical.

If you work for a company, and one of your colleagues gets addicted to crack, should that reflect on you or your employers?

You reckon a solid citizen, like John Worsfold, should be saddled with a "drug problem" because he's employed by a club that also employed a guy who got addicted to drugs?

Just resist the temptation to over-state the case, and think about how unreasonable that actually is.

Only West Coast know the answer to your second point. I'd think it would be fair to say that they believed there was a problem.

Yeah - the problem was that Cousins was a drug addict.

People who want to claim that West Coast had "a drug problem" need to demonstrate that the club had a uniquely high and uniquely widespread level of drug use. And they have all their work still ahead of them.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Why do you find that improbable?

Well, why is it probable?

We've seen Hawthorn implicated in something similar.

I reckon the real surprise would be if there weren't a few players at half the clubs who dabbled.

Or do you reckon that 15 clubs are squeaky clean, while half the Eagles players are junkies?

 

[Black Flag]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Huh?

Just think about what you're saying.

It's an individual's problem. To ascribe that to the dozens of people that comprise a footy club is illogical.

I'm saying any individual may potentially influence another. Particularly a club captain.

Yeah - the problem was that Cousins was a drug addict.

People who want to claim that West Coast had "a drug problem" need to demonstrate that the club had a uniquely high and widespread level of drug use. And they have all their work still ahead of them.

People are going on the facts so far presented. Those facts paint WCE in a relatively unfavorable light in comparison to other clubs.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

I'm saying any individual may potentially influence another. Particularly a club captain.

Well, are we dealing in maybes, or in stuff we can actually talk about with a degree of certainty?

Maybe Wayne Carey infected all the Kangaroos players with negative attitudes towards women, and that's where the seeds of the chicken video were sewn.

Do you want to play that game?

Come on - let's keep it real.

People are going on the facts so far presented.

You're not. You're talking about Cousins pushing drugs to other players.

Those facts paint WCE in a relatively unfavorable light in comparison to other clubs.

It's true – West Coast have copped the brunt of the bad publicity. Cousins was a high profile player, and his meltdown was a massive story.

I guess it's a question of whether you think that because West Coast have been the club in the spotlight, it means West Coast is the only club where players use drugs.

Frankly, I think that would be a pretty naive conclusion to draw.

Furthermore, you have to make a decision about how much you ascribe the choices and lifestyles of a a handful of individuals to an entire club.

 

[Black Flag]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Well, are we dealing in maybes, or in stuff we can actually talk about with a degree of certainty?

The possibility that Cousins could potentially encourage a young player to smoke crack is not a problem to you?

I guess it's a question of whether you think that because West Coast have been the club in the spotlight, it means West Coast is the only club where players use drugs.

No one is saying WCE is the only club, but naturally they will be scrutinized more due to the number of players implicated.

There was a drug problem at Carlton with Angwin. I admit that freely.

 

[tcwaters]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

West Coast may have (or had) a drug problem, but Melbourne have the more serious problem of Jack Watts.

I wondered how our boys got so clean, so quickly.

The Melbourne recruiting staff stole our gear, then selected Morton & Watts.. Poor buggers

 

[Empire_Persian]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

Ignorance is bliss.

To imagine that West Coast is alone in having drug-problems is very naive.

How could anybody think that a social ill such as drugs, which is rife within the community, is isolated from football teams ?

Every club has casual users.

West Coast was unfortunate to have a Brownlow Medalist addicted.

 

[ziad]

Re: The Great Beat-Up: The Drug Problem at West Coast

fortunately the biggest influencers regarding drugs at WCE are now 4000km away and spread among four different clubs.

we should feel relatively safe, particularly given the rutless cutting and a development program that is far more breoader and pervasive than most would realise. Th issue is anything but swept under the carpet in Perth.

Alcohol and abuse are far bigger problems within the AFL space - they are together the sleeping giant of bad PR.

I dont think the AFL will over react in the way they did with Cousins - next time they are front page. It will be too close to home for that.