A lot of people on this forum seem to make similar comments to these. I posted the following on the Dusty GOAT thread in response to another point someone made but it is relevant here.
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Let's have a proper look at this so we can understand where Dusty's GF performances sit compared to other players seen as being BOG in Grand Finals since 2012. There are 3 main credible methods of recognising who has played best in Grand Finals.
Norm Smith Medal votes, voted on by a selection of 5 football people, some of whom can be journalists, and ex-players/coaches, none of whom should be especially connected to any of the teams or players participating.
AFLCA(Coaches) votes. Ostensibly voted on by the head coaches of the 2 competing teams, more likely a consensus of the coaching panels of the 2 competing teams thoughts on which players would be thought to have played best under traditional voting systems, but with an influence of the inside knowledge of the coaches understanding the player's roles and how they affect their team's fortunes.
Official player ratings. An objective system that awards and deducts points for various actions each player performs according to the perceived value those actions would normally have to his team.
They are all constructed differently and produced by different people with different roles in the sport. Coaches votes have been available since 2016. Player ratings since 2012. Norm Smith Medal votes since 1979. So let's put into a table everything since 2012...
Year Norm Smith Medallist & votes Norm Smith votes of any player voted best under ALL other methods Top Coaches Votes Coaches votes of any player voted best under ANY other methods Top Player Rating Player rating and ranking of any player voted best under ALL other methods Gary Ayres Medal 2012 Ryan O'Keefe(12 votes) McVeigh 1(5th BOG)
Franklin 5(=3rd BOG)n/a n/a Jarrad McVeigh/Lance Franklin(21.3) O'Keefe 14.6(11th ranked) n/a 2013 Brian Lake(12 votes) Johnson 0 votes (not in top 5 BOG) n/a n/a Michael Johnson(22.7) Lake 17.1(3rd ranked) n/a 2014 Luke Hodge(10 votes) Langford 1 vote(=4th BOG) n/a n/a Will Langford(21.7) Hodge 18.4(5th ranked) n/a 2015 Cyril Rioli(13 votes) Smith 1 vote(=5th BOG) n/a n/a Isaac Smith(19.4) Rioli 13.2(11th BOG) n/a 2016 Jason Johannisen(8 votes) Bontempelli 0 votes(not in top 4 BOG) Jason Johannisen(9 votes) Bontempelli 0 votes(not in top 7 BOG) Marcus Bontempelli(28.0) Johannisen 10.4(=20th BOG) Josh Kennedy(Sydney version) 2017 Dustin Martin (13 votes) Houli 10 votes(2nd BOG) Bachar Houli(10 votes) Martin 8 votes(2nd BOG) Dustin Martin(30.9) Houli 7.5(29th BOG) Dustin Martin 2018 Luke Shuey(11 votes) Luke Shuey(10 votes) Luke Shuey(35.7) Steele Sidebottom 2019 Dustin Martin (15 votes) Dustin Martin(10 votes) Dustin Martin (22.8) Dustin Martin 2020 Dustin Martin(15 votes) Dustin Martin(10 votes) Dustin Martin(32.1*) Dustin Martin 2021 Christian Petracca(15 votes) Christian Petracca(10 votes) Christian Petracca(28.8) Jack Macrae 2022 Isaac Smith(14 votes) Warner(0 votes - not in top 5 BOG) Isaac Smith(10 votes) Warner 0 votes(not in top 6 BOG) Chad Warner(29.9) Smith 25.2(2nd BOG) Patrick Dangerfield 2023 Bobby Hill(15 votes) DeGoey(0 votes - not in top 6 BOG) Bobby Hill(10 votes) DeGoey 0 votes(not in top 7 BOG) Jordan DeGoey(22.3) Hill 12.9(13th BOG) Sam Walsh
Players to be BOG under all 3 methods(available since 2016 only):
Dustin Martin(twice, back to back 2019-20)
Luke Shuey 2018
Christian Petracca 2021
Note 2012-15 the player ratings and Norm Smith Medal voting never recognised the same player as BOG.
Coaches votes and Norm Smith votes have only disagreed once on who was BOG since 2016, that was 2017 when Martin and Houli were each recognised by 1 method. But by player ratings it was Martin then daylight then 27 other players, then Houli.
If we were to create a system where each method was given equal weight of 20 points for BOG, 10 for 2nd BOG, 5 for 3rd BOG under each method and alter that to 30-15-7.5 when only 2 methods were available 2012-15...and use amount of votes or player rating as a tie breaker where required, this is how the Grand Final performances would rank:
1. Luke Shuey 2018 60 points(35.7 player rating)
2. Dustin Martin 2020 60 points(32.1 player rating)
3. Christian Petracca 2021 60 points(28.8 player rating)
4. Dustin Martin 2019 60 points(22.8 player rating)
= 5. Isaac Smith 2022, Dustin Martin 2017 50 points
7. Bobby Hill 2023 40 points(max coaches/smith medal votes)
8. Jason Johannisen 2016 40 points(8 of max 15 Smith Medal votes, 9 of max 10 coaches votes)
9. Brian Lake 2013 37.5 points
10. Langford/Hodge 2014, O'Keefe 2012, Johnson 2013, Rioli/Smith 2015 30 points
16. Lance Franklin 2012 26.25 points
You could go into deeper detail but I think this is a fair enough ranking of how well recognised the different performances were under the 3 voting/scoring systems. The top 4 are basically undisputed BOG's and I have used player ratings to separate them. You could equally demote Shuey in 2018 to 4th position as he received on 11 of the 15 possible Norm Smith medal votes, where the others in the top 4 received maximum Smith Medal and Coaches votes AND were the highest rated player in the match.
There are some remarkable things about Martin's Grand Finals.
1. He was undisputed BOG under all methods back to back 2019-20, nobody else has even come close to doing that.
2. He was undisputed BOG under all methods in 2 of his 3 Grand Finals
3. He was BOG using a combination of all methods in all 3 of the 3 Grand Finals he played.
4. Each of the 3 times he was BOG in the Grand Final he accompanied this with the Gary Ayres Medal for best player in the finals series. No other Grand Final BOG has even done this once so far in the 8 year existence of the Ayres award.
5. In the least recognised of his GF performances - 2017 - he was BOG under 2 of the 3 methods with historically high votes/scores, and max vote 2nd BOG under the 3rd method, coaches votes.
We could of course go further and collate player ratings in all finals back to 2012 to impute a best in finals that way, and I am as sure as I can be that would equally show Dustin Martin streeting the field.
Dusty has either the best or second highest recognised Grand Final performance in the last 12 years, along with the 4th best and =5th best.
But he almost certainly has the undisputed 1st, 2nd and 3rd best finals series during that period. Ie his 3rd best finals series won greater recognition than any other player's BEST finals series in the last 12 years(about 180-190 players play finals each year.) That should put his finals deeds into some sort of correct perspective for people.
I mean we can question any disputed BOG. But Dusty's 2019-20 BOG's were 2 of only 4 undisputed BOG's in the last 12 Grand Finals. Of the other 8 Grand Finals that produced disputed BOG's, Dusty's 2017 was the equal least disputed. When you produce 3 of the top 6 Grand Finals performances since 2012, nobody should be questioning the legitimacy of you being adjudged BOG in any of those.
Look at you write a thesis on your boy idol