The Greatest Finals Player Ever

[PenfoldsFan]

I am not sure you are being serious. Surely not. 7 people voted including the 2 coaches. 4 voted Dusty BOG, 2 voted hi max possible votes 2nd BOG, and separately the ratings had him by miles BOG. Amazing how if the ratings are so flawed they selected the same BOG as the 8 coaches and 18 of the 20 Norm Smith voters over a 4 year period 2018-21. I mean out of 46 players, this ratings system you say was so wrong about Houli in 2017 just happened to select the exact same player as BOG as both coaches did the next 4 years in succession. How exactly do you explain that?

I cant explain it, I wouldnt begin to.
All I can say is I sat in a room amongst dozens of Adelaide and neutrals and the overwhelming feel amongst them/us was that Bachar was the standout player in the critical moments when the game was still in balance and deserved the NS.
I understand why Dusty won it, I just dont agree with it.

 

[BrisDog]

Averaging 27 disposals and a goal per final. Hard to go past Bob Skilton.

Quite easy to look past Bob to be honest. Average stats.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Quite easy to look past Bob to be honest. Average stats.

Was a joke. Someone good enough to win 3 brownlow's only played 1 career final.

 

[YouBeauty]

Jason Dunstall.

 

[GoldbergsGold]

Probably most 2001-2003 Brisbane Lions players.

 

[Lunchtime]

I cant explain it, I wouldnt begin to.
All I can say is I sat in a room amongst dozens of Adelaide and neutrals and the overwhelming feel amongst them/us was that Bachar was the standout player in the critical moments when the game was still in balance and deserved the NS.
I understand why Dusty won it, I just dont agree with it.

And that's fine if you agree or don't agree. We all have varying opinions about "opinion awards" such as the Norm Smith, Brownlow and All Australian. But It's official and set in stone and nothing or no one can take that 2017 Norm Smith medal away from him. There's really no more to be said. It's his now.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I cant explain it, I wouldnt begin to.
All I can say is I sat in a room amongst dozens of Adelaide and neutrals and the overwhelming feel amongst them/us was that Bachar was the standout player in the critical moments when the game was still in balance and deserved the NS.
I understand why Dusty won it, I just dont agree with it.

Would just invite you to watch the game again, like most of us Richmond fans have done many times. It is blindingly obvious Dusty was BOG. He had 29 disposals, 22 contested, 83% efficiency(huge for a player with so many contested possessions,) 24 effective disposals, 9 score involvements, 2 goals, 2 assists - all his goals and assists were heavily contested, 6 clearances. It was a total blitz. Houli had a great game for a half back but so much of it involved receiving the ball uncontested. His game stood out to the naked eye on first viewing because a) he genuinely played really well, and b) he had a huge amount of metres gained due to his role being to receive balls surging forward.

To be honest, and I know I am not the only tiger supporter to say this, first time I watched the game I was a bit unsure but thought Houli was probably best on. But on watching replays, as good as Houli was, he wasn't even close to having Dusty's influence on the match.

Critical moments of the game didn't come into it, Dusty was superb throughout the game, start to finish. Such that ultimately, there were no real critical moments in the game.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

Would just invite you to watch the game again, like most of us Richmond fans have done many times. It is blindingly obvious Dusty was BOG. He had 29 disposals, 22 contested, 83% efficiency(huge for a player with so many contested possessions,) 24 effective disposals, 9 score involvements, 2 goals, 2 assists - all his goals and assists were heavily contested, 6 clearances. It was a total blitz. Houli had a great game for a half back but so much of it involved receiving the ball uncontested. His game stood out to the naked eye on first viewing because a) he genuinely played really well, and b) he had a huge amount of metres gained due to his role being to receive balls surging forward.

To be honest, and I know I am not the only tiger supporter to say this, first time I watched the game I was a bit unsure but thought Houli was probably best on. But on watching replays, as good as Houli was, he wasn't even close to having Dusty's influence on the match.

Critical moments of the game didn't come into it, Dusty was superb throughout the game, start to finish. Such that ultimately, there were no real critical moments in the game.

That’s called “confirmation bias”.

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

I have just checked Gordon Coventry's playing career at Collingwood. OK. His first game was 1920 & his last game was in 1937. Therefore his playing career ostensibly would been minimally affected by World War 1 (but unlikely) & certainly totally unaffected by World War 2. Goodnight & good luck.

Could you also check the careers of the other 35 players for a count of milkmen and posties? K thx bye

 

[joe444]

Kevin Bartlett for mine. 1967 GF - 3 goals; 1980 GF - 7 goals ... and nary an average performance between those two.

If this is degenerating into another Dusty thread, it's worth remembering that many of the players we are comparing him with played in finals consistently, or at least in different stages of their career - not just a relatively brief flurry of brilliance.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Kevin Bartlett for mine. 1967 GF - 3 goals; 1980 GF - 7 goals ... and nary an average performance between those two.

If this is degenerating into another Dusty thread, it's worth remembering that many of the players we are comparing him with played in finals consistently, or at least in different stages of their career - not just a relatively brief flurry of brilliance.

A 4 year span is actually a longer period or span of that level of dominance in finals than anyone else has displayed ever.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

That’s called “confirmation bias”.

Of course you wouldn’t be exhibiting confirmation bias by making that call F2S, because your false claim runs counter to what you previously believed.

 

[Grrr]

That Bachar was rated 29th tells you all you need to know about their ranking system.
Especially when the people who set him his task in the game said he was BOG.

Coaches votes have been spot on and should have been on that day too.
outsiders caught up in the moment and hype gave the NS votes.

Dusty put the icing on the cake, Bachar prepared and baked it.

Other way round. Dusty did all the hard work. Adelaide prepared to not let Dusty off the leash. and he was double and triple teamed, especially up until half time when the scores were close. It was Dusty breaking tackles and dishing off to a teammate that got us back into the game after Adelaide's good start. All his good work was in close.

When the flood gates opened, Dusty then did as he pleased. In my eyes easily best on. He broke Adelaide's game plan. They were the 'best team of the year' for a reason.

 

[Lunchtime]

That’s called “confirmation bias”.

But it's his opinion. I assume you think Dusty didn't deserve the 2017 Norm Smith medal? So I could say to you that you also have bias as well because your opinion is different.

It's all opinion.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

But it's his opinion. I assume you think Dusty didn't deserve the 2017 Norm Smith medal? So I could say to you that you also have bias as well because your opinion is different.

It's all opinion.

The point was that he originally thought Houli was best on ground, but after subsequent rewatches CHANGED his view to that of the NS judges.

It’s actually a really good example of confirmation bias.

 

[Cleansweep17]

A 4 year span is actually a longer period or span of that level of dominance in finals than anyone else has displayed ever.

It’s weird that speaking about Dusty irritates him. Dusty can’t help it if he is discussed in this thread. He’s the greatest finals player ever after all.

 

[Cleansweep17]

That’s called “confirmation bias”.

“Confirmation Bias”

Check awards…

… Yup Dusty got 3 x NS and 3 x Finals MVPs

CONFIRMED

 

[Lunchtime]

The point was that he originally thought Houli was best on ground, but after subsequent rewatches CHANGED his view to that of the NS judges.

It’s actually a really good example of confirmation bias.

I thought both Martin and Houli were the stand outs in that 2017 Grand Final. My opinion, I thought Martin was a bit better and deserved the Norm Smith medal. There wasn't much between them on the day I reckon but for me Martin was a tad better. I didn't think Houli was "robbed".

Again, just my opinion.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

I thought both Martin and Houli were the stand outs in that 2017 Grand Final. My opinion, I thought Martin was a bit better and deserved the Norm Smith medal. There wasn't much between them on the day I reckon but for me Martin was a tad better. I didn't think Houli was "robbed".

Again, just my opinion.

Cool beans.

 

[Cleansweep17]

The point was that he originally thought Houli was best on ground, but after subsequent rewatches CHANGED his view to that of the NS judges.

It’s actually a really good example of confirmation bias.

You do this with AA selections and B&Fs

Martin has 4 AAs and 2 B&Fs (which is what people judge his consistency on)

Did you know he has 4 AA squads and around 6-8 Top 3 B&F finishes as well?

No you didn’t, you’ve never mentioned it. I bet even knowing this now your opinion won’t change on Dustys “consistency”

Like I said nobody remembers second place and the awards matter. You Geelong people (and Fadge/RUNVS) prove it without even realising it.

Dusty will forever be remembered as BOG in the 2017 GF BECAUSE OF THE NS. His finals record would have been diminished if they gave it to Houli. Just like the AAs and B&Fs.

 

[Cleansweep17]

A lot of people on this forum seem to make similar comments to these. I posted the following on the Dusty GOAT thread in response to another point someone made but it is relevant here.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's have a proper look at this so we can understand where Dusty's GF performances sit compared to other players seen as being BOG in Grand Finals since 2012. There are 3 main credible methods of recognising who has played best in Grand Finals.

Norm Smith Medal votes, voted on by a selection of 5 football people, some of whom can be journalists, and ex-players/coaches, none of whom should be especially connected to any of the teams or players participating.

AFLCA(Coaches) votes. Ostensibly voted on by the head coaches of the 2 competing teams, more likely a consensus of the coaching panels of the 2 competing teams thoughts on which players would be thought to have played best under traditional voting systems, but with an influence of the inside knowledge of the coaches understanding the player's roles and how they affect their team's fortunes.

Official player ratings. An objective system that awards and deducts points for various actions each player performs according to the perceived value those actions would normally have to his team.

They are all constructed differently and produced by different people with different roles in the sport. Coaches votes have been available since 2016. Player ratings since 2012. Norm Smith Medal votes since 1979. So let's put into a table everything since 2012...

Year	Norm Smith Medallist & votes	Norm Smith votes of any player voted best under ALL other methods	Top Coaches Votes	Coaches votes of any player voted best under ANY other methods	Top Player Rating	Player rating and ranking of any player voted best under ALL other methods	Gary Ayres Medal
2012	Ryan O'Keefe(12 votes)	McVeigh 1(5th BOG) Franklin 5(=3rd BOG)	n/a	n/a	Jarrad McVeigh/Lance Franklin(21.3)	O'Keefe 14.6(11th ranked)	n/a
2013	Brian Lake(12 votes)	Johnson 0 votes (not in top 5 BOG)	n/a	n/a	Michael Johnson(22.7)	Lake 17.1(3rd ranked)	n/a
2014	Luke Hodge(10 votes)	Langford 1 vote(=4th BOG)	n/a	n/a	Will Langford(21.7)	Hodge 18.4(5th ranked)	n/a
2015	Cyril Rioli(13 votes)	Smith 1 vote(=5th BOG)	n/a	n/a	Isaac Smith(19.4)	Rioli 13.2(11th BOG)	n/a
2016	Jason Johannisen(8 votes)	Bontempelli 0 votes(not in top 4 BOG)	Jason Johannisen(9 votes)	Bontempelli 0 votes(not in top 7 BOG)	Marcus Bontempelli(28.0)	Johannisen 10.4(=20th BOG)	Josh Kennedy(Sydney version)
2017	Dustin Martin (13 votes)	Houli 10 votes(2nd BOG)	Bachar Houli(10 votes)	Martin 8 votes(2nd BOG)	Dustin Martin(30.9)	Houli 7.5(29th BOG)	Dustin Martin
2018	Luke Shuey(11 votes)		Luke Shuey(10 votes)		Luke Shuey(35.7)		Steele Sidebottom
2019	Dustin Martin (15 votes)		Dustin Martin(10 votes)		Dustin Martin (22.8)		Dustin Martin
2020	Dustin Martin(15 votes)		Dustin Martin(10 votes)		Dustin Martin(32.1*)		Dustin Martin
2021	Christian Petracca(15 votes)		Christian Petracca(10 votes)		Christian Petracca(28.8)		Jack Macrae
2022	Isaac Smith(14 votes)	Warner(0 votes - not in top 5 BOG)	Isaac Smith(10 votes)	Warner 0 votes(not in top 6 BOG)	Chad Warner(29.9)	Smith 25.2(2nd BOG)	Patrick Dangerfield
2023	Bobby Hill(15 votes)	DeGoey(0 votes - not in top 6 BOG)	Bobby Hill(10 votes)	DeGoey 0 votes(not in top 7 BOG)	Jordan DeGoey(22.3)	Hill 12.9(13th BOG)	Sam Walsh

Players to be BOG under all 3 methods(available since 2016 only):

Dustin Martin(twice, back to back 2019-20)
Luke Shuey 2018
Christian Petracca 2021

Note 2012-15 the player ratings and Norm Smith Medal voting never recognised the same player as BOG.

Coaches votes and Norm Smith votes have only disagreed once on who was BOG since 2016, that was 2017 when Martin and Houli were each recognised by 1 method. But by player ratings it was Martin then daylight then 27 other players, then Houli.

If we were to create a system where each method was given equal weight of 20 points for BOG, 10 for 2nd BOG, 5 for 3rd BOG under each method and alter that to 30-15-7.5 when only 2 methods were available 2012-15...and use amount of votes or player rating as a tie breaker where required, this is how the Grand Final performances would rank:

1. Luke Shuey 2018 60 points(35.7 player rating)
2. Dustin Martin 2020 60 points(32.1 player rating)
3. Christian Petracca 2021 60 points(28.8 player rating)
4. Dustin Martin 2019 60 points(22.8 player rating)
= 5. Isaac Smith 2022, Dustin Martin 2017 50 points
7. Bobby Hill 2023 40 points(max coaches/smith medal votes)
8. Jason Johannisen 2016 40 points(8 of max 15 Smith Medal votes, 9 of max 10 coaches votes)
9. Brian Lake 2013 37.5 points
10. Langford/Hodge 2014, O'Keefe 2012, Johnson 2013, Rioli/Smith 2015 30 points
16. Lance Franklin 2012 26.25 points

You could go into deeper detail but I think this is a fair enough ranking of how well recognised the different performances were under the 3 voting/scoring systems. The top 4 are basically undisputed BOG's and I have used player ratings to separate them. You could equally demote Shuey in 2018 to 4th position as he received on 11 of the 15 possible Norm Smith medal votes, where the others in the top 4 received maximum Smith Medal and Coaches votes AND were the highest rated player in the match.

There are some remarkable things about Martin's Grand Finals.

1. He was undisputed BOG under all methods back to back 2019-20, nobody else has even come close to doing that.
2. He was undisputed BOG under all methods in 2 of his 3 Grand Finals
3. He was BOG using a combination of all methods in all 3 of the 3 Grand Finals he played.
4. Each of the 3 times he was BOG in the Grand Final he accompanied this with the Gary Ayres Medal for best player in the finals series. No other Grand Final BOG has even done this once so far in the 8 year existence of the Ayres award.
5. In the least recognised of his GF performances - 2017 - he was BOG under 2 of the 3 methods with historically high votes/scores, and max vote 2nd BOG under the 3rd method, coaches votes.

We could of course go further and collate player ratings in all finals back to 2012 to impute a best in finals that way, and I am as sure as I can be that would equally show Dustin Martin streeting the field.

Dusty has either the best or second highest recognised Grand Final performance in the last 12 years, along with the 4th best and =5th best.

But he almost certainly has the undisputed 1st, 2nd and 3rd best finals series during that period. Ie his 3rd best finals series won greater recognition than any other player's BEST finals series in the last 12 years(about 180-190 players play finals each year.) That should put his finals deeds into some sort of correct perspective for people.

I mean we can question any disputed BOG. But Dusty's 2019-20 BOG's were 2 of only 4 undisputed BOG's in the last 12 Grand Finals. Of the other 8 Grand Finals that produced disputed BOG's, Dusty's 2017 was the equal least disputed. When you produce 3 of the top 6 Grand Finals performances since 2012, nobody should be questioning the legitimacy of you being adjudged BOG in any of those.

Don’t even waste your time MR. They don’t want to be convinced.

Dusty got the medal the end, that’s all people will remember and talk about. I mean how many times did they mention it in the lead up to his 300th game.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

The point was that he originally thought Houli was best on ground, but after subsequent rewatches CHANGED his view to that of the NS judges.

It’s actually a really good example of confirmation bias.

Confirmation bias would be if I considered Houli BOG initially then ignored the tsunami of evidence telling us otherwise and just stuck to my initial incorrect view.

Very odd reference to the concept by you here F2S. You are using an example of the absolute polar opposite of confirmation bias then quoting it as if it is an example of confirmation bias. Not like you to become so disorientated with your posting.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

Confirmation bias would be if I considered Houli BOG initially then ignored the tsunami of evidence telling us otherwise and just stuck to my initial incorrect view.

Very odd reference to the concept by you here F2S. You are using an example of the absolute polar opposite of confirmation bias then quoting it as if it is an example of confirmation bias. Not like you to become so disorientated with your posting.

No. What you’re describing isn’t confirmation bias. Confirmation bias assigns GREATER WEIGHT to evidence that supports your own view.

To be fair though, I did miss an important point in your narrative, and perhaps unfairly assumed you joined the post-win chorus for Dusty before becoming more and more convinced with every re-watch. Apologies if so.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

His finals record would have been diminished if they gave it to Houli. Just like the AAs and B&Fs.

I dont think so.

I consider Dusty to be the best finals player in my time watching the game despite believing Bachar deserved the 2017 NS.

I think its more a case of you need people to believe Bachar wasnt better to keep Dustys finals record #1.
Or you'd just accept differing opinion.

 

[Cleansweep17]

I dont think so.

I consider Dusty to be the best finals player in my time watching the game despite believing Bachar deserved the 2017 NS.

I think its more a case of you need people to believe Bachar wasnt better to keep Dustys finals record #1.
Or you'd just accept differing opinion.

So if Dusty played the exact same and never got a norm smith or finals MVP (let’s say second place for all of them)

Would you still think people would say he’s the best finals player ever or even close to it? I don’t think so, not even close. They’d probably call it the Dustywobbles and take the micky out of him for finishing 2nd so many times.