Politics The Hangar Politics Thread

[Old Campaigner]

Conflating Hamas with Palestine (or the Netanyahu government with all Jewish people, for that matter) reminds me a lot of some Americans conflating Al Qaeda with Saddam Hussein.

As the reigning poster of the year said it’s more like the whole thing with Muslims being expected to specifically disavow Al Qaeda and ISIS when all that shit was going down.

 

[faible]

Oh ok. You'd just made sure to specifically mention the ICC warrants for Israel a couple of times. Wasn't sure you were aware they'd also been issued for Hamas.

Our government already considers Hamas a terrorist organisation, as do most people.

Hamas aren't in the midst of committing a genocide of the civilian population of Gaza.

Thanks for allowing me to clarify that I'm opposed to all war crimes and crimes against humanity though

 

[boncer34]

Our government already considers Hamas a terrorist organisation, as do most people.

Hamas aren't in the midst of committing a genocide of the civilian population of Gaza.

Thanks for allowing me to clarify that I'm opposed to all war crimes and crimes against humanity though

No worries. I'm glad you got the chance.

But can I ask, do you think if Hamas had Netanyahu's army and arsenal they wouldn't be trying to wipe out the Jewish people living in Israel?

 

[faible]

But can I ask, do you think if Hamas had Netanyahu's army and arsenal they wouldn't be trying to wipe out the Jewish people living in Israel?

I think Hamas are a terrible organisation that would do (even more) terrible things had they the capacity to do so (assuming no other factor changed and they just materialised a significant increase in military power e.g. the existence of an independent Palestinian state, no occupied territories etc. etc.)

They don't, haven't, and will never have the capacity to do so however, so it was always only ever a hypothetical.

None of which makes mass attacks on civilian populations acceptable. Whether they be against Israeli civilians on October 7th, or the ongoing attacks on the Palestinian population in Gaza since.

 

[Vander18]

Our government already considers Hamas a terrorist organisation, as do most people.

Hamas aren't in the midst of committing a genocide of the civilian population of Gaza.

Thanks for allowing me to clarify that I'm opposed to all war crimes and crimes against humanity though

But Hamas did cause the Israeli response through their actions over time and then specifically on October 7. They can also end it by surrendering, disbanding and releasing hostages. Alternatively, they could do their fighting away from areas where their own people live and work, but they prefer to use them as human shields.

If we are talking genocide, "from the river to sea" sounds a lot like it to me. Do we expect Israel to sit back and accept an aggressive neighbor that attacks on a regular basis and has a stated goal to wipe it off the face of the map?

But then can Israel really claim any moral high ground when we consider the continued growth and development of settlements, and all that goes with it, which seems totally at odds with any desire for peace and co-existence?

My point here is that I personally find it impossible to establish in my mind a firm view of right and wrong in the context of the Israel/Palestine issue. You just end up going round and round, prosecuting arguments that go back into antiquity.

The best I can come up with is that 2 million Arabs seem to live well enough in Israel whilst Jews cannot live in Palestine.....which is something, but not everything.

It's a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma

 

[boncer34]

I think Hamas are a terrible organisation that would do (even more) terrible things had they the capacity to do so (assuming no other factor changed and they just materialised a significant increase in military power e.g. the existence of an independent Palestinian state, no occupied territories etc. etc.)

They don't, haven't, and will never have the capacity to do so however, so it was always only ever a hypothetical.

None of which makes mass attacks on civilian populations acceptable. Whether they be against Israeli civilians on October 7th, or the ongoing attacks on the Palestinian population in Gaza since.

It's not ongoing attacks against Israeli civilians?

Hamas goal is the eradication of Israel, does that not make them currently engaged, or at least attempting to be, in the midst of engaging in an on going genocide against a civilian population?

 

[faible]

But Hamas did cause the Israeli response through their actions over time and then specifically on October 7. They can also end it by surrendering, disbanding and releasing hostages. Alternatively, they could do their fighting away from areas where their own people live and work, but they prefer to use them as human shields.

If we are talking genocide, "from the river to sea" sounds a lot like it to me. Do we expect Israel to sit back and accept an aggressive neighbor that attacks on a regular basis and has a stated goal to wipe it off the face of the map?

But then can Israel really claim any moral high ground when we consider the continued growth and development of settlements, and all that goes with it, which seems totally at odds with any desire for peace and co-existence?

My point here is that I personally find it impossible to establish in my mind a firm view of right and wrong in the context of the Israel/Palestine issue. You just end up going round and round, prosecuting arguments that go back into antiquity.

The best I can come up with is that 2 million Arabs seem to live well enough in Israel whilst Jews cannot live in Palestine.....which is something, but not everything.

It's a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma

It's bad and bad, caught in the middle are a heap of civilians.

It's not a Hollywood movie where there's good guys and bad guys and it's all nice and neat.

 

[faible]

It's not ongoing attacks against Israeli civilians?

Hamas goal is the eradication of Israel, does that not make them currently engaged, or at least attempting to be, in the midst of engaging in an on going genocide against a civilian population?

Hamas have no way to enact a genocide against the Israeli population as a whole. No, that doesn't make their attacks on the civilian population acceptable, but it's not the same as the actions Israel are actually taking against the civilian population of Gaza.

Hamas also accept the 1967 borders and the two-state solution, their 2017 charter is significantly more realistic in its aims. Though they shouldn't be in charge of any future Palestinian state anyway.

What do you think about it all, seeing as you're asking a number of questions.

 

[boncer34]

Hamas have no way to enact a genocide against the Israeli population as a whole. No, that doesn't make their attacks on the civilian population acceptable, but it's not the same as the actions Israel are actually taking against the civilian population of Gaza.

Hamas also accept the 1967 borders and the two-state solution, their 2017 charter is significantly more realistic in its aims. Though they shouldn't be in charge of any future Palestinian state anyway.

What do you think about it all, seeing as you're asking a number of questions.

I think they're as bad as each other.

 

[jmoo wan]

I think they're as bad as each other.

so you’re antisemitic and islamophobic? wow

 

[ant555]

Hamas have no way to enact a genocide against the Israeli population as a whole. No, that doesn't make their attacks on the civilian population acceptable, but it's not the same as the actions Israel are actually taking against the civilian population of Gaza.

Hamas also accept the 1967 borders and the two-state solution, their 2017 charter is significantly more realistic in its aims. Though they shouldn't be in charge of any future Palestinian state anyway.

What do you think about it all, seeing as you're asking a number of questions.

They also know they can provoke a response from Israel by doing what they did and gain support.
Let’s face it. Palestine has been problematic for over 2000 years.

 

[Pweter]

Civilians have always been, at best, collateral damage in war, at worst and seemingly more frequently they're targeted. You don't have to go back far to see Western nations doing likewise, destroying Vietnamese villages and everyone in them under the assumption they're harboring Viet Kong, indiscriminate carpet bombing of Berlin, Dresden etc in WWII to hit strategic targets and anyone within a few mile radius of the targets, let's not forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki etc.

It's shit, but so is war. The innocent and not so innocent suffer alike. What we're seeing in the middle east is the next iteration of it.

 

[Kong]

As the reigning poster of the year said it’s more like the whole thing with Muslims being expected to specifically disavow Al Qaeda and ISIS when all that shit was going down.

wait, who's the reigning poster of the year? I
i haven't seen it mentioned.

 

[Pweter]

wait, who's the reigning poster of the year? I
i haven't seen it mentioned.

I can't remember his name, but it was allegedy a situation like when Martin beat Bart for class president, just the winner and his friend voted.

 

[boncer34]

I can't remember his name, but it was allegedy a situation like when Martin beat Bart for class president, just the winner and his friend voted.

The 2 sweetest words in the English language.

 

[Old Campaigner]

Let’s face it. Palestine has been problematic for over 2000 years.

It was mostly fine from about 650AD to 1917.

The present day problems all stem from the ethnic cleansing of the native inhabitants to make way for the modern state of Israel. Groups like Hamas thrive on despair and anger, even a modicum of decency towards the palestinian people (e.g. a right of return for displaced palestinians to return to their homeland) would go a long way towards improving the situation.

 

[ant555]

It was mostly fine from about 650AD to 1917.

The present day problems all stem from the ethnic cleansing of the native inhabitants to make way for the modern state of Israel. Groups like Hamas thrive on despair and anger, even a modicum of decency towards the palestinian people (e.g. a right of return for displaced palestinians to return to their homeland) would go a long way towards improving the situation.

Not sure I would call it mostly fine.

 

[boncer34]

It was mostly fine from about 650AD to 1917.

The present day problems all stem from the ethnic cleansing of the native inhabitants to make way for the modern state of Israel. Groups like Hamas thrive on despair and anger, even a modicum of decency towards the palestinian people (e.g. a right of return for displaced palestinians to return to their homeland) would go a long way towards improving the situation.

Who were the native inhabitants?

 

[boncer34]

Not sure I would call it mostly fine.

40k in the first crusade for a start does make me unsure I'd call it mostly fine either.

 

[Old Campaigner]

Who were the native inhabitants?

The arabs living there mostly uninterrupted since the byzantines lost control.

As you've alluded to, it wasn't always sunshine and roses but you're still talking about centuries of uninterrupted muslim rule until the west got itself involved in the middle east after WWI.

 

[boncer34]

The arabs living there mostly uninterrupted since the byzantines lost control.

As you've alluded to, it wasn't always sunshine and roses but you're still talking about centuries of uninterrupted muslim rule until the west got itself involved in the middle east after WWI.

Ah so it's more "they've been in charge the longest."

 

[Old Campaigner]

Ah so it's more "they've been in charge the longest."

No, it's a people with deep roots in a place getting driven off their land at gunpoint and onlookers wondering why they feel so strongly about it.

That isn't to deny the strong Jewish connection to the region and to Jerusalem in particular but discussion of the present situation is pointless without acknowledgement that almost all of what is now Israel had an Arab population for centuries until the Nakba.

 

[Pweter]

The 2 sweetest words in the English language.

It was that now mythical being Doss wasn't it? Afterall, love can be bought

 

[Pweter]

Who were the native inhabitants?

Depends on which century

 

[Pweter]

No, it's a people with deep roots in a place getting driven off their land at gunpoint and onlookers wondering why they feel so strongly about it.

That isn't to deny the strong Jewish connection to the region and to Jerusalem in particular but discussion of the present situation is pointless without acknowledgement that almost all of what is now Israel had an Arab population for centuries until the Nakba.

Look it's uncomfortable but so is reading this thread, but I'll go there.

You describe the Colonial Wars and beyond with your first paragraph.