The mysterious behaviour of Alavi and Charter

[Cronos]

As far as Hird was concerned, the meeting could have been by chance. Dank arranged it. He was trying to convince Hird to let him run the program he wanted. Where did I pretend it didn't happen? I have no idea how detailed the discussions they had were. And neither have you. Anything Charter had to say about that meeting would depend on which side he saw his own self interest lying at that point in time.

ASADA based their case on a mischievous, untrustworthy witness, who they said at the time came forward "for altruistic reasons" (no doubt their job offer to him was because of said altruism). About as believable as ASADA's entire case. And they based their case on a "dirtbag's" evidence
BECAUSE THAT IS ALL THEY HAD!!
Great. Clever. Keep us all hanging on for 2 years plus, while you construct a BS case based on BS evidence.
Of course, Essendon should have just let it go. Truth or not. Pretty damn disreputable to match ASADA's tactics.

Why would Dank be trying to convince Hird to let him run the program he wanted... I thought Hird had nothing to do with the "supplement" program.

For $Deity's sake, didn't you see the organisational matrix?

 

[60sbomber]

Learn the difference between refuting an argument; and blindly denying the content.

THen we can talk.

Nah we can't. You talk. You just don't listen. You keep repeating the same thing when I have already addressed it.

 

[andrewb]

Laphroaig is of the opinion that Hird orchestrated the whole thing.

ASADA is of the opinion that Dank orchestrated the whole thing.

Dank and Hird are of the opinion that no banned substances were taken.

Charter is of the opinion that the players were doped but duped.

Alavi doesn't know what he compounded, nor where it ended up.

Hird must be a fricken evil mastermind to pull all that off. Well played Hirdy.

 

[60sbomber]

Why would Dank be trying to convince Hird to let him run the program he wanted... I thought Hird had nothing to do with the "supplement" program.

For $Deity's sake, didn't you see the organisational matrix?

I never said Hird had "nothing to do with the supplement program".
Clearly he thought Essendon were behind other clubs, which they probably were (not that we will ever know, as the AFL refuses to look at what other clubs were doing).
He would have been part of the decision to bring in Robinson, probably on Bomber Thompson's recommendation. Robinson recommended Dank, and Dank then tried to sell the sort of program he wanted to run. He arranged a "chance meeting" with Charter when he was trying to sell Hird on the need for his program.
After the program was up and running, it was the sports science department, under Robinson, that ran it. While Hird would have had some involvement in what they were doing, it wasn't his responsibility to see that it was run properly.
When Reid complained about how it was being run, Hird stepped in (despite not having the organizational responsibility), and wrote his email about the requirements that it be within the rules, safe, approved by Reid, and consented to by the players.

I know this doesn't sit well with those who want to portray Hird as some evil drug crazed mastermind of the program, but try to get past the indoctrination of the AFL/Wilson propaganda, and see it as it really was.

 

[Hearts to hearts]

I never said Hird had "nothing to do with the supplement program".
Clearly he thought Essendon were behind other clubs, which they probably were (not that we will ever know, as the AFL refuses to look at what other clubs were doing).
He would have been part of the decision to bring in Robinson, probably on Bomber Thompson's recommendation. Robinson recommended Dank, and Dank then tried to sell the sort of program he wanted to run. He arranged a "chance meeting" with Charter when he was trying to sell Hird on the need for his program.
After the program was up and running, it was the sports science department, under Robinson, that ran it. While Hird would have had some involvement in what they were doing, it wasn't his responsibility to see that it was run properly.
When Reid complained about how it was being run, Hird stepped in (despite not having the organizational responsibility), and wrote his email about the requirements that it be within the rules, safe, approved by Reid, and consented to by the players.

I know this doesn't sit well with those who want to portray Hird as some evil drug crazed mastermind of the program, but try to get past the indoctrination of the AFL/Wilson propaganda, and see it as it really was.

Don't lump us all together. I'm more than happy to believe that Hird was not the mastermind, but used his pull at the club to kick things off then jumped in and out of being involved due to his inexperience and stupidity.

 

[the conch]

I never said Hird had "nothing to do with the supplement program".
Clearly he thought Essendon were behind other clubs, which they probably were (not that we will ever know, as the AFL refuses to look at what other clubs were doing).
He would have been part of the decision to bring in Robinson, probably on Bomber Thompson's recommendation. Robinson recommended Dank, and Dank then tried to sell the sort of program he wanted to run. He arranged a "chance meeting" with Charter when he was trying to sell Hird on the need for his program.
After the program was up and running, it was the sports science department, under Robinson, that ran it. While Hird would have had some involvement in what they were doing, it wasn't his responsibility to see that it was run properly.
When Reid complained about how it was being run, Hird stepped in (despite not having the organizational responsibility), and wrote his email about the requirements that it be within the rules, safe, approved by Reid, and consented to by the players.

I know this doesn't sit well with those who want to portray Hird as some evil drug crazed mastermind of the program, but try to get past the indoctrination of the AFL/Wilson propaganda, and see it as it really was.

What about hirds long association with charter and friends of charter. What about all the coaching staff getting into hard core injectables. Speaks heaps about the culture. What about the in house black ops appearance of the program. What about the absolutely negligent lack of oversight and even records.
While i can appreciate smart arse Dank may have taken it over the cliff it is clear Hird was the architect and the driving force behind it and legitimizing it. That he refuses to meaningfully take any responsibility is disgusting.

 

[Laphroaig]

Laphroaig is of the opinion that Hird orchestrated the whole thing.

ASADA is of the opinion that Dank orchestrated the whole thing.

Dank and Hird are of the opinion that no banned substances were taken.

Charter is of the opinion that the players were doped but duped.

Alavi doesn't know what he compounded, nor where it ended up.

Hird must be a fricken evil mastermind to pull all that off. Well played Hirdy.

A not very clever piece of cleverness really.

Based entirely on the claims of the individuals mentioned. You know, the individuals who did the deed. And on the mysterious disappearance of material the same individuals once had in their possession.

**** ing great source material.

Speaking of sources, I'd love to know on what you base your hard conclusion that ASADA have Dank - and nobody else - responsible.

 

[andrewb]

A not very clever piece of cleverness really.

Based entirely on the claims of the individuals mentioned. You know, the individuals who did the deed. And on the mysterious disappearance of material the same individuals once had in their possession.

**** ing great source material.

Speaking of sources, I'd love to know on what you base your hard conclusion that ASADA have Dank - and nobody else - responsible.

Hird would have received an SCN if there was evidence that he provided support to a doping program

 

[nineteen eighty]

Laphroaig is of the opinion that Hird orchestrated the whole thing.

ASADA is of the opinion that Dank orchestrated the whole thing.

Dank and Hird are of the opinion that no banned substances were taken.

Charter is of the opinion that the players were doped but duped.

Alavi doesn't know what he compounded, nor where it ended up.

Hird must be a fricken evil mastermind to pull all that off. Well played Hirdy.

IMO

Hird was not the mastermind but gave the thumbs up for the program. Dank executed on it once he was given the go ahead from Hird. Hird wouldn't have the know how to pull this off. That's where Dank comes into it.

As for the Alavi bit, no-one if their right mind would believe he cooked up batches of PED's but had no idea which PED's he was cooking up. That's just not possible nor feasible.

 

[Satan]

IMO

Hird was not the mastermind but gave the thumbs up for the program. Dank executed on it once he was given the go ahead from Hird. Hird wouldn't have the know how to pull this off. That's where Dank comes into it.

As for the Alavi bit, no-one if their right mind would believe he cooked up batches of PED's but had no idea which PED's he was cooking up. That's just not possible nor feasible.

Not difficult to cheat at uni it seems
http://m.smh.com.au/nsw/cheats-slip...iversity-of-sydney-20150406-1mepbr.touch.html
Maybe alvai can claim he is not a legit chemist?

 

[andrewb]

IMO

Hird was not the mastermind but gave the thumbs up for the program. Dank executed on it once he was given the go ahead from Hird. Hird wouldn't have the know how to pull this off. That's where Dank comes into it.

As for the Alavi bit, no-one if their right mind would believe he cooked up batches of PED's but had no idea which PED's he was cooking up. That's just not possible nor feasible.

Yeah that's my take too. Hird wanted a cutting edge program, didn't assess the risks very well, hamilton didn't put enough controls in place, the club didn't put a stop to it quickly enough. No one at essendon set out to break the rules though, if tb4 was taken it was an oversight rather than a doping program.

 

[Satan]

Yeah that's my take too. Hird wanted a cutting edge program, didn't assess the risks very well, hamilton didn't put enough controls in place, the club didn't put a stop to it quickly enough. No one at essendon set out to break the rules though, if tb4 was taken it was an oversight rather than a doping program.

Nothing was an oversight , everything was calculated

 

[Michael Quinn]

Don't lump us all together. I'm more than happy to believe that Hird was not the mastermind, but used his pull at the club to kick things off then jumped in and out of being involved due to his inexperience and stupidity.

Interesting, because that's how I see it. Hird had only completed one year of what was still really a coaching apprenticeship, before he tried to up the ante into areas he was nowhere near ready to deal with. And neither was the club. Clearly.

The idea that he is the 'mastermind' of anything off field makes me chuckle. He was a smart footballer, with great awareness and ability to read the play. That's why he was always going to be able to step into the match day coaching side of things. But as far as the off field stuff goes, that was always the concern. And he's showed that concern was justified. Learn to walk before you run Jimmy.

It's not always the size or magnitude of the mistake that matters. It's the consequences of those mistakes that matter. I'm not convinced that Hird individually did that much wrong, but certainly decisions he was involved with led to some shocking consequences for the club and footy in general.

But as it stands right now, the consequences haven't included players being found guilty of taking PED's or receiving suspensions. So considering he has already copped a 12 month suspension (you can call it a working holiday all you want... he was suspended from coaching for 12 months, that clearly hurt him), what more is there left to do to him? Should he really be sacked / banned from AFL based on how this has all turned out?

 

[Cronos]

I never said Hird had "nothing to do with the supplement program".
Clearly he thought Essendon were behind other clubs, which they probably were (not that we will ever know, as the AFL refuses to look at what other clubs were doing).
He would have been part of the decision to bring in Robinson, probably on Bomber Thompson's recommendation. Robinson recommended Dank, and Dank then tried to sell the sort of program he wanted to run. He arranged a "chance meeting" with Charter when he was trying to sell Hird on the need for his program.
After the program was up and running, it was the sports science department, under Robinson, that ran it. While Hird would have had some involvement in what they were doing, it wasn't his responsibility to see that it was run properly.
When Reid complained about how it was being run, Hird stepped in (despite not having the organizational responsibility), and wrote his email about the requirements that it be within the rules, safe, approved by Reid, and consented to by the players.

I know this doesn't sit well with those who want to portray Hird as some evil drug crazed mastermind of the program, but try to get past the indoctrination of the AFL/Wilson propaganda, and see it as it really was.

Hird, himself, said that Hird had "nothing to do with the supplement program". After all, his only role is to put out the witches hats at training.

Your comments suggest that you don't believe him either.

 

[nineteen eighty]

Yeah that's my take too. Hird wanted a cutting edge program, didn't assess the risks very well, hamilton didn't put enough controls in place, the club didn't put a stop to it quickly enough. No one at essendon set out to break the rules though, if tb4 was taken it was an oversight rather than a doping program.

Maybe I wan't clear enough but IMO, Hird absolutely from the outset set out to cheat!

No doubt in my mind that he approved a PED program...one that went above and beyond the boundaries. FFS, he had no problem with banned / prohibited PED's as he was being injected with them himself.

So in summary, Hird was not the mastermind but gave the thumbs up for Dank to execute on a PED program that crossed the line.

 

[60sbomber]

Hird, himself, said that Hird had "nothing to do with the supplement program". After all, his only role is to put out the witches hats at training.

Your comments suggest that you don't believe him either.

Another person who can't (or won't) listen.
My whole post was a response to the "Hird had nothing to do with the supplement program" line.
Read it again and try a bit harder.

 

[Cronos]

Another person who can't (or won't) listen.
My whole post was a response to the "Hird had nothing to do with the supplement program" line.
Read it again and try a bit harder.

How about you think harder.

From the post I first replied to:

As far as Hird was concerned, the meeting could have been by chance. Dank arranged it. He was trying to convince Hird to let him run the program he wanted.

The question I asked is why was Dank trying so hard to convince Hird, a man who by his own admission and reference to the organisational matrix had nothing to do with any supplement programs, to allow Dank to run the supplement program that Dank wanted?

Why did Hird, a man who by his own admission and reference to the organisational matrix had nothing to do with supplement programs, have to bring in others to do the supplementation program?

Why did Hird, a man who by his own admission and reference to the organisational matrix had nothing to do with supplement programs, have to set up the protocol under which the supplement program he had nothing to do with should run?

Why did Hird, a man who by his own admission and reference to the organisational matrix had nothing to do with supplement programs, have to arrange Danny Corcoran to use his UN skills to pull Doc Reid back into line regarding the supplement program?

There is certainly a lot of involvement from Hird for a man who had nothing to do with the supplement program. You accuse me of not (or not being capable of) listening, yet plenty are sticking their fingers in their ears about the above. Two years ago, James Hird promised the truth would come out. He's spent every waking moment since doing everything he can to prevent it coming out.

Congratulations must go to your club for obviously getting away with a team-wide club sanctioned doping program. I only hope it sees CAS.

 

[NoAFLinmycomp]

Interesting, because that's how I see it. Hird had only completed one year of what was still really a coaching apprenticeship, before he tried to up the ante into areas he was nowhere near ready to deal with. And neither was the club. Clearly.

The idea that he is the 'mastermind' of anything off field makes me chuckle. He was a smart footballer, with great awareness and ability to read the play. That's why he was always going to be able to step into the match day coaching side of things. But as far as the off field stuff goes, that was always the concern. And he's showed that concern was justified. Learn to walk before you run Jimmy.

It's not always the size or magnitude of the mistake that matters. It's the consequences of those mistakes that matter. I'm not convinced that Hird individually did that much wrong, but certainly decisions he was involved with led to some shocking consequences for the club and footy in general.

But as it stands right now, the consequences haven't included players being found guilty of taking PED's or receiving suspensions. So considering he has already copped a 12 month suspension (you can call it a working holiday all you want... he was suspended from coaching for 12 months, that clearly hurt him), what more is there left to do to him? Should he really be sacked / banned from AFL based on how this has all turned out?

Certainly not as it stands off the back of the result of the player INs.

The test I think will come off the back of the result of the other INs we are waiting on.

If that support person can be found guilty then I think others will follow.

 

[morgoth]

Any chance that ASADA or associated entities gave inducements for Charter to give evidence ? i can think of no reason why Charter would speak to ASADA.

I can, telling the truth. Some people do it you know because its the right thing to do.

They can't wait for the truth to come out.

Others go to court, get witnesses to withdraw testimony and that sort of thing.

It comes down to something called ethics/morals. Something sadly lacking at the EFC.

 

[60sbomber]

How about you think harder.

From the post I first replied to:


The question I asked is why was Dank trying so hard to convince Hird, a man who by his own admission and reference to the organisational matrix had nothing to do with any supplement programs, to allow Dank to run the supplement program that Dank wanted?

Why did Hird, a man who by his own admission and reference to the organisational matrix had nothing to do with supplement programs, have to bring in others to do the supplementation program?

Why did Hird, a man who by his own admission and reference to the organisational matrix had nothing to do with supplement programs, have to set up the protocol under which the supplement program he had nothing to do with should run?

Why did Hird, a man who by his own admission and reference to the organisational matrix had nothing to do with supplement programs, have to arrange Danny Corcoran to use his UN skills to pull Doc Reid back into line regarding the supplement program?

There is certainly a lot of involvement from Hird for a man who had nothing to do with the supplement program. You accuse me of not (or not being capable of) listening, yet plenty are sticking their fingers in their ears about the above. Two years ago, James Hird promised the truth would come out. He's spent every waking moment since doing everything he can to prevent it coming out.

Congratulations must go to your club for obviously getting away with a team-wide club sanctioned doping program. I only hope it sees CAS.

I answered all those issues in my post (#129). You seem to interpret "nothing to do with" however suits your purpose. He had "nothing to do with" the running of the program. He helped set it up (before it ever existed or had a place in the organizational matrix). He stepped in to try to fix the problems that became apparent in the program when he was presented with the problem by Doc Reid.
It's not that hard to understand, unless of course you don't want to see it any other way than Hird being the villain, no matter what.
But, as I have noted, I have said all this before, and you choose not to read it, or to read it with a mind only wanting to refute it, because it doesn't fit your desperate need to make Hird the villain.

You aren't going to change your views, that's pretty clear.
But don't pretend that you are listening to anyone else's views, because you are not.

PS Nice summary at the end. Unfortunately for you, the tribunal came to a different conclusion, which you clearly have no intention of accepting.

 

[footyfanatic09]

I can't believe people still doubt hirdy , he will be a premiership coach soon enough and I think some of you guys need to show him a bit more respect hey ...

 

[nineteen eighty]

I answered all those issues in my post (#129). You seem to interpret "nothing to do with" however suits your purpose. He had "nothing to do with" the running of the program. He helped set it up (before it ever existed or had a place in the organizational matrix). He stepped in to try to fix the problems that became apparent in the program when he was presented with the problem by Doc Reid.
It's not that hard to understand, unless of course you don't want to see it any other way than Hird being the villain, no matter what.
But, as I have noted, I have said all this before, and you choose not to read it, or to read it with a mind only wanting to refute it, because it doesn't fit your desperate need to make Hird the villain.

You aren't going to change your views, that's pretty clear.
But don't pretend that you are listening to anyone else's views, because you are not.

PS Nice summary at the end. Unfortunately for you, the tribunal came to a different conclusion, which you clearly have no intention of accepting.

How do you explain away the "united nations" text? Hird knew the program was against ole Doc's wishes yet got Corcoran to pressure Doc to allow it to kick off again.

Loving the story telling underway.

 

[Cronos]

I answered all those issues in my post (#129). You seem to interpret "nothing to do with" however suits your purpose. He had "nothing to do with" the running of the program. He helped set it up (before it ever existed or had a place in the organizational matrix). He stepped in to try to fix the problems that became apparent in the program when he was presented with the problem by Doc Reid.
It's not that hard to understand, unless of course you don't want to see it any other way than Hird being the villain, no matter what.
But, as I have noted, I have said all this before, and you choose not to read it, or to read it with a mind only wanting to refute it, because it doesn't fit your desperate need to make Hird the villain.

You aren't going to change your views, that's pretty clear.
But don't pretend that you are listening to anyone else's views, because you are not.

PS Nice summary at the end. Unfortunately for you, the tribunal came to a different conclusion, which you clearly have no intention of accepting.

The "Nothing to do with" was based on James Hird's lawyers at the court case stating that he was only the coach and had nothing to do with, nor any knowledge of the program. The many questions I asked conflict with his side of the story. I'm not pointing at you when I'm saying it, merely James Hird's side of the story. It does not make sense. Just like James Hird's comment that he had never told anything untrue publicly shortly after saying he didn't actually believe what he publicly said at the initial press conference regarding taking responsibility. There have been way too many inconsistencies in the EFC side of the story from day one.

On day one, James Hird publicly stated that things didn't look right, and as the head coach, the buck stopped with him, and he would take responsibilty. Then when the truth was told, he'd be in a good place. Then claimed no responsibility. Then hid from the truth as much as he could.

Nothing the Essendon Football Club nor it's employees have done from day one are the actions of an innocent party with nothing to hide. It's been garbage games of semantics and double talk to do everything possible to hide the truth.

PS. You're right. I did come to a different conclusion than the tribunal, and the tiny amount of information that has come out for the judgement details suggests that the tribunal's reasoning doesn't stack up, and that another tribunal may see things very differently. This is why many would like to see the whole judgement, and not just the cherry picked parts the pro-EFC media want to highlight.

If anyone provided a view that didn't sound like absolute bullshit and didn't completely hope you disregard all the other facts that have come out publicly, I would be willing to change my point of view. At this stage, all I'm hearing is inconsistent bullshit and claims of "we didn't do it, prove we did" from the obviously guilty.

 

[Proper Gander]

Laphroaig is of the opinion that Hird orchestrated the whole thing.

ASADA is of the opinion that Dank orchestrated the whole thing.

Dank and Hird are of the opinion that no banned substances were taken.

Charter is of the opinion that the players were doped but duped.

Alavi doesn't know what he compounded, nor where it ended up.

Hird must be a fricken evil mastermind to pull all that off. Well played Hirdy.

Andrew Andrew Andrew...

Double spacing again?

Either you are a scriptwriter trying for a green light man to fund you, or a uni student skilled in making 900 words look like an essay by weight.

 

[andrewb]

Maybe I wan't clear enough but IMO, Hird absolutely from the outset set out to cheat!

No doubt in my mind that he approved a PED program...one that went above and beyond the boundaries. FFS, he had no problem with banned / prohibited PED's as he was being injected with them himself.

So in summary, Hird was not the mastermind but gave the thumbs up for Dank to execute on a PED program that crossed the line.

No proof that we ever crossed the boundaries, plenty that we went right to the edge. Naive risk assessment and management.