Play Nice The NM Devil's Chessboard Thread - Part II

[Val Keating]

What a disgusting and frankly cheap attempt at drawing a parallel.

No it isn’t.

Israel is currently committing a genocide/ethnic cleansing against peoples they see as less than human.

Israelis are very open about it. They share it on social media.

 

[Liam Boy]

I generally agree with a lot of your points here. I know a lot of Jews who are furious like you couldn't imagine at Netanyahu and his cabal of hardliner far-right genocidal enablers. They've empowered more anti-semitists than we have ever seen since the end of WW2.

But the key thing to remember is that an awful and abhorrent government is not wholly representative of an entire country.

Israel has a right to exist, and believing so is not evil.

The current regime needs to be removed and held accountable for their atrocities. And then a new Israeli government commited to peace and the establishment of a free and independent Palestine must be implemented.

But I will always push back on any accusations that infer that all Israelis are complicit, or that Israel shouldn't exist.

But what do you mean when you say Israel has a right to exist? Is it the right to exist as "the jewish state" i.e. a state where the rights of jews (as determined by who the state considers to be jewish) are upheld at the expense of everyone else, denying people who live or provably have lived in the territory it claims full citizenship rights, the right of return, and the right to have their stolen property and land returned, based on not fitting into that ethnic classification? I don't think a state like that has the right to exist, and I don't think a status quo where a state like that is allowed to go on existing - even if it cedes territoriy to a new free and independent Palestine - can ever lead to a stable or lasting peace. That premise (which I think is demonstrated by the majority of Israeli society) can only lead to widespread belief of inherent racial supremacy, and the "Greater Israel" manifest destiny that has grown out from it would be an eternal territorial threat to every country in the vicinity, especially the new state of Palestine.

I don't really think any state has the inherent right to exist. Rights belong to human beings and a state that violates those rights or applies them unevenly makes itself illegitimate. In a case like Apartheid South Africa this was very easy for people to understand, ultimately, and it lead to the creation of a society that is deeply flawed but ultimately better than the one it replaced. I don't think it could have been solved by international recognition of the Bantustans as free and independent states, and a maintenance of Apartheid for the Whites in the land they get to keep. The problem was the racial supremacy that underpinned the state.

My ideal outcome would be something similar to what happened in South Africa - one state that's an actual democracy, with equal application of human rights to all. That's obviously not going to be an easy place to get to, but it will actually be impossible if Israel continues to get the international support that it gets, which enables it to eternally skirt accountability for its myriad human rights abuses, and supplies it with the means to wage as much death and destruction on the surrounding countries, and its occupied Palestinian population as it desires. Apartheid South Africa was only able to be abolished once the sanctions, boycotts and the loss of international diplomatic support made it untenable.

 

[Grogg]

Antisemitism should never be tolerated in an enlightened society and that also applies to any racial stereotyping.

When it comes to genocide, then that needs vocal condemnation from all. Continued ignorance, continued silence implies acceptance. That's why it's important to highlight these atrocities and call them out for what they are and who is perpetrating them.

The more people that voice their objection, be they Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Agnostic or whatever fundamental belief you care to identify with the more this abomination is likely to end.

"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph in the world is that good men do nothing".

What is happening right now is a stain on humanity.

Sorry for the speech, but my nephew's partner doesn't even know if her Mum is alive or dead due to what is unfolding in the ME now, so it's kind of personal

 

[Chadwiko]

But what do you mean when you say Israel has a right to exist? Is it the right to exist as "the jewish state"

Yes, but as a secular Jewish nation. And as such, with secular and equal rights for all.

 

[Grogg]

 

[Liam Boy]

Yes, but as a secular Jewish nation. And as such, with secular and equal rights for all.

What is a secular Jewish nation? Are you talking about jewish ethnicity as opposed to religion? In what way would that state have a Jewish ethnic character if it's a state that upholds the rights of all people? Would such a state give Palestinians full citizenship, the right of return, and the restoration of their stolen property? How can a state have an ethnic character if it isn't in some way attempting to influence the demographics of its population through the restriction of rights to some at the expense of others?

What I'm talking about isn't a hypothetical, it's how Israel works now. They deny Palestinians those rights because if they didn't, they wouldn't be able to maintain a Jewish majority. In the totality of Israel and the land that it occupies, Jews are not the majority, even now after so many decades of apartheid, ethnic cleansing and other actions taken to limit the life and flourishing of Palestinian society. They're only able to maintain a majority hold on their "democracy" by depriving the people whose land they occupy and those they've ethnically cleansed (and their descendants) full citizenship and democratic rights, which I believe is clearly why they don't; because to the majority of Israelis, and undeniably those in charge, that majority jewish status, and the privileging of jews above other groups is what makes Israel "the jewish state".

Inevitably, if that state began to apply those rights evenly to Palestinians, it would lose that Jewish majority status. In your eyes, would that be maintaining Israel's status as a secular Jewish nation?

 

[Val Keating]

What is a secular Jewish nation? Are you talking about jewish ethnicity as opposed to religion? In what way would that state have a Jewish ethnic character if it's a state that upholds the rights of all people? Would such a state give Palestinians full citizenship, the right of return, and the restoration of their stolen property? How can a state have an ethnic character if it isn't in some way attempting to influence the demographics of its population through the restriction of rights to some at the expense of others?

What I'm talking about isn't a hypothetical, it's how Israel works now. They deny Palestinians those rights because if they didn't, they wouldn't be able to maintain a Jewish majority. In the totality of Israel and the land that it occupies, Jews are not the majority, even now after so many decades of apartheid, ethnic cleansing and other actions taken to limit the life and flourishing of Palestinian society. They're only able to maintain a majority hold on their "democracy" by depriving the people whose land they occupy and those they've ethnically cleansed (and their descendants) full citizenship and democratic rights, which I believe is clearly why they don't; because to the majority of Israelis, and undeniably those in charge, that majority jewish status, and the privileging of jews above other groups is what makes Israel "the jewish state".

Inevitably, if that state began to apply those rights evenly to Palestinians, it would lose that Jewish majority status. In your eyes, would that be maintaining Israel's status as a secular Jewish nation?

Zero chance of Israel becoming a secular nation

“A secular state is an idea pertaining to secularity, whereby a state is or purports to be officially neutral in matters of religion, supporting neither religion nor irreligion. A secular state claims to treat all its citizens equally regardless of religion”

 

[Chadwiko]

(trimmed for space)

Inevitably, if that state began to apply those rights evenly to Palestinians, it would lose that Jewish majority status. In your eyes, would that be maintaining Israel's status as a secular Jewish nation?

Yeah man, look; I don't pretend to have all the answers. If I did have them, I'd probably receive the Nobel Peace Prize.

At the end of the day, all I want is a free and peaceful Israel, and a free and peaceful Palestine.

 

[ferball]

Cheerleading? No. Just sharing the fact that because part of my role involves sending people out bush to do disaster impact assessments, the AFP felt it necessary to specifically brief our team on the threat of armed sov-cit nutjobs.

That's just a fact. No "cheerleading" involved whatsoever.



Sure. And the AFP specifically cited them as an example of sov-cit related extremism. To me. Directly.

Also called them "terrorists" too for what it's worth. Does that make them someone else's "freedom fighters?"



Me.

You are so full of:

a/ yourself.

b/ shit.

 

[ferball]

BTW The AFP is full of shit as well.

 

[ferball]

Hey just curious ferball and Val Keating - are you going to direct any of your lashing out in defense of sov-cits towards The Warlord as well?

Or is it not actually about the issue for you, and instead is just another excuse for you to attempt a pile-on directed at me?

Let me know!

Just you ya campaigner. Warlord is capable of disagreeing about something and not resorting to the offensive crap you do.

Nah, I'm just pushing back because ferbs said that "the feds" don't care about sovcits and that's just blatantly blatantly incorrect. And when I pushed back, he literally called me "bigoted" hahahaha.

This document is pretty clear in its assessment. Try as they might they can't find a reason to claim any substantial threat.

https://www.afp.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-09/123-2023.pdf

That they lied to you about what the people who dealt with and investigated the case in Qld found is just another example of how dodgy that organisation is. Something described as "Australia's first case of extremist Christian terrorism" had to be reframed as something else in order to justify their existence.

 

[ferball]

Not all sovcits are violent extremists, but all sovcits are delusional morons. And unfortunately a lot of them are on the pathway to violent extremism whether they know it or not.

Maybe we should lock them up in camps.

 

[Val Keating]

Being a bit of a history nuff I’m currently reading about James Douglas, it just occurred to me that he too would be considered a terrorist by modern standards.

 

[Liam Boy]

Yeah man, look; I don't pretend to have all the answers. If I did have them, I'd probably receive the Nobel Peace Prize.

At the end of the day, all I want is a free and peaceful Israel, and a free and peaceful Palestine.

I'd recommend you and anyone else who's interested in the topic takes the time to watch this video:


This guy is probably what you'd describe as far-left, you may not agree with him about everything but his videos are very well-researched with meticulous sourcing for claims. I find these arguments and others like them very convincing and I'd encourage you to at least engage with them, even if you don't end up agreeing with the conclusions drawn, you might learn something that could help you to articulate your own position.

 

[ferball]

Yes, but as a secular Jewish nation. And as such, with secular and equal rights for all.

So a secular nation with equal rights for all?

 

[Chadwiko]

This document is pretty clear in its assessment. Try as they might they can't find a reason to claim any substantial threat.

https://www.afp.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-09/123-2023.pdf

.

Hahaha that's literally part of the briefing they delivered to my team. Thank you for proving my point.

Probably won't shock you to know that the redacted parts centred specifically on examples/threats. But even the unredacted parts paint a clear picture.

If you read that and think it suggests the Commonwealth government doesn't consider sovcits a threat then boy... I don't know what to tell you. Work on your "comprending" skills I guess.

 

[ferball]

What is a secular Jewish nation? Are you talking about jewish ethnicity as opposed to religion? In what way would that state have a Jewish ethnic character if it's a state that upholds the rights of all people? Would such a state give Palestinians full citizenship, the right of return, and the restoration of their stolen property? How can a state have an ethnic character if it isn't in some way attempting to influence the demographics of its population through the restriction of rights to some at the expense of others?

What I'm talking about isn't a hypothetical, it's how Israel works now. They deny Palestinians those rights because if they didn't, they wouldn't be able to maintain a Jewish majority. In the totality of Israel and the land that it occupies, Jews are not the majority, even now after so many decades of apartheid, ethnic cleansing and other actions taken to limit the life and flourishing of Palestinian society. They're only able to maintain a majority hold on their "democracy" by depriving the people whose land they occupy and those they've ethnically cleansed (and their descendants) full citizenship and democratic rights, which I believe is clearly why they don't; because to the majority of Israelis, and undeniably those in charge, that majority jewish status, and the privileging of jews above other groups is what makes Israel "the jewish state".

Inevitably, if that state began to apply those rights evenly to Palestinians, it would lose that Jewish majority status. In your eyes, would that be maintaining Israel's status as a secular Jewish nation?

This is the issue. Jewish people in Israel feel the need for a Jewish majority because of all the shit treatment they copped in Europe for millenia.

Its a wicked problem in many ways.

 

[ferball]

Hahaha that's literally part of the briefing they delivered to my team. Thank you for proving my point.

Did you read it?

WTTE of "most of the time sovcits are non violent and keep to themselves. There are no examples of them acting violently that we can publish in this briefing paper, so we'll make inferences and vague statements and associate them with Trump to scare the middle class."

To the point they even brought up Jan 6th which was an attempted coup by a government that didn't want to accept a democratic result to try and associate something, anything with a potential for danger.

Its a crock of shit and the fact you can't see thru it ... well its not really surprising is it.

 

[Chadwiko]

Its a crock of shit and the fact you can't see thru it ... well its not really surprising is it.

I'm sure it's a very normal and healthy perspective to have on the world when you think you are the only person who really sees through the government lies and is therefore the authority on what to trust and what not to trust.

Totally, bro. I don't think there's a name for that or anything.

Meanwhile, here in reality...

 

[Val Keating]

I'm sure it's a very normal and healthy perspective to have on the world when you think you are the only person who really sees through the government lies and is therefore the authority on what to trust and what not to trust.

Totally, bro. I don't think there's a name for that or anything.

Meanwhile, here in reality...

Matey, you shouldn’t be lecturing anyone about living in reality when you still believe that Biden is still mentally capable of being president.

 

[ferball]

I'm sure it's a very normal and healthy perspective to have on the world when you think you are the only person who really sees through the government lies and is therefore the authority on what to trust and what not to trust.

Totally, bro. I don't think there's a name for that or anything.

Meanwhile, here in reality...

There are no facts in that document that support the contention that sovcits are an actual movement and have a higher propensity for violence than any other members of the general public.

In fact they have a lower propensity for sticking assault riffles in children's faces than the AFP do.

Meanwhile here in reality you continue to gaslight posters you disagree with because you have no facts or data to back up your contention.