Father Jack
Brownlow Medallist
- Mar 23, 2006
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Fair enough.
With your second comment,thought we were on the same page there.
Ah, right.
As you were.
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AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
The REAL premiership ladder - You've gotta be in it to win it.
- Thread starter WatWouldCyrilDo
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Ah, right.
As you were.
- Oct 13, 2006
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I thought about adding them in but then you would have some teams that have played against 17 opponents and some that have played against 7 or 8. Would have made the wins/losses skewed towards longer standing teams.
Comparing the number of premierships won to the number of season played and the number of teams in each of those seasons. Play 8 seasons in a 8 team competition you would expect to win one premership if all things where equal.
Brisbane Lions 4.00 (12 seasons in a 16 teams comp, expected value 0.75 have won 3. 4 times the expected value)
West Coast 2.10
Brisbane Bears/Lions 2.10
Adelaide 1.75
Essendon 1.67
Carlton 1.60 (have played 2 more seasons than Essendon)
Hawthorn 1.513
Collingwood 1.39
Port Adelaide 1.33
Melbourne 1.27
Richmond 1.16
Fitzroy 0.87
Geelong 0.73
North Melbourne 0.61
Sydney 0.54
South Melbourne/Sydney 0.41
South Melbourne 0.38
Footscray 0.15
St Kilda 0.10
Brisbane Bears 0.00
University 0.00
Fremantle 0.00 (have gone longer without winning a flag than the other 2)
Brisbane Lions 4.00 (12 seasons in a 16 teams comp, expected value 0.75 have won 3. 4 times the expected value)
West Coast 2.10
Brisbane Bears/Lions 2.10
Adelaide 1.75
Essendon 1.67
Carlton 1.60 (have played 2 more seasons than Essendon)
Hawthorn 1.513
Collingwood 1.39
Port Adelaide 1.33
Melbourne 1.27
Richmond 1.16
Fitzroy 0.87
Geelong 0.73
North Melbourne 0.61
Sydney 0.54
South Melbourne/Sydney 0.41
South Melbourne 0.38
Footscray 0.15
St Kilda 0.10
Brisbane Bears 0.00
University 0.00
Fremantle 0.00 (have gone longer without winning a flag than the other 2)
I just did the same thing on the last page of this thread, except you've broken up brisbane/bears/fitzroy and sydney/south melb.
It's stupid because people here love to set limits to how some stats are presented so that their team look better after some adjustments.
It's like me asking who is the current best full forward in the AFL wearing no. 25. Oh it's Fevola is it? Thanks for the compliment~
It's like me asking who is the current best full forward in the AFL wearing no. 25. Oh it's Fevola is it? Thanks for the compliment~
Don't know how I missed that.
Father Jack
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Not really, it just takes into consideration the fact that a team playing in a comp for fifty or one hundred years more than another team is likely to have more flags.
Is it that difficult a concept to grasp?
There is no doubt that Essendon/Carlton are joint most successful teams (measured by absolute number of premierships) in the VFL/AFL competition.
Bender has however come up with an excellent system for rationalising the inequities of an absolute measurement as obviously not all teams have been given the same opportunity.
Blues supporters should get with the spirit of this and suggest improvements if necessary rather than just shouting it down.
Bender has however come up with an excellent system for rationalising the inequities of an absolute measurement as obviously not all teams have been given the same opportunity.
Blues supporters should get with the spirit of this and suggest improvements if necessary rather than just shouting it down.
I've come up with my own system as well. I didn't make it too complicated, basically what I did was go through each club and tally all their Premiership wins. Simple huh? Here are the results:
Actually, I've just realised this is the system the AFL use as well - silly me
Thats Gold
. AT the end of the day the OPs just bored and tried to spend some of his time comming up with a hipothetical formula which at least shows he is thinking out of the box, but whether you have been in the afl for 100 years or just 10 years, the number of premierships you have plays a big part in this..I am sure you can try and twist as many facts to why your team is the greatest ( ie Hawthorn winning the most in the last 40 years). Premiership wins are a big factor in deciding greatness. These johny came lately teams will have to earn this. Yeah other teams may have 100 years head start but thats tough. If they are succesful they can lay claim to being th e most succesful in their era. Even though the AFL gave them 600000 more in their salary caps than the Vic teams. . Can you tell that i'm bored as well?
That alright mate, great minds think alike.
CROWS08
Debutant
Funny how all the Carlton supporters are comeing out and saying "we have been in the comp for over 100 years.
I would say that is not true.
10 Vic teams joined teams from other states and the AFL was formed.
If the AFL was not formed then there would be no VFL as they were so broke as a comp it wasnt funny and would most likly have folded as a comp. Dont believe look back at the time the AFL was formed and you will see i am right.
Yes Carlton has won alot of VFL flags (15 i believe) but only 1 AFL flag (1999). I wish that everyone would stop spouting off all these VFL/AFL stats as it is the AFL.
Keep your VFL history where it belongs in the VFL.
I would say that is not true.
10 Vic teams joined teams from other states and the AFL was formed.
If the AFL was not formed then there would be no VFL as they were so broke as a comp it wasnt funny and would most likly have folded as a comp. Dont believe look back at the time the AFL was formed and you will see i am right.
Yes Carlton has won alot of VFL flags (15 i believe) but only 1 AFL flag (1999). I wish that everyone would stop spouting off all these VFL/AFL stats as it is the AFL.
Keep your VFL history where it belongs in the VFL.
Stats can tell you anything you want.
But they don't tell the whole story.
Simply trotting out the number of flags each club has one completely ignores the time clubs have been in the comp, the number of opponents they have had, the advatages they have had over certain time period.
Similarly, limiting it to just the last 17 years, or from when a side enters the comp, completely ignores the importance of thet great club culture that success over a long period of time brings.
Most teams know who they are better than. For instance, my club has a lot of other clubs covered, but most eagles supporter will tell you that we are Essendon's b1tch.
For me, I'm really only interested in the success my club has whilst i am alive. I was a passionate West Perth supporter prior to 1987, yet I didn't revel or regail about the flags we had won before I was born..
yet I can still remember and think fondly on Matera's 5 goals, Chickie's smother, shepherd, tackle etc. I also smile thinking about Paul Mifka flattening Jason Heatley in the 95 GF
But they don't tell the whole story.
Simply trotting out the number of flags each club has one completely ignores the time clubs have been in the comp, the number of opponents they have had, the advatages they have had over certain time period.
Similarly, limiting it to just the last 17 years, or from when a side enters the comp, completely ignores the importance of thet great club culture that success over a long period of time brings.
Most teams know who they are better than. For instance, my club has a lot of other clubs covered, but most eagles supporter will tell you that we are Essendon's b1tch.
For me, I'm really only interested in the success my club has whilst i am alive. I was a passionate West Perth supporter prior to 1987, yet I didn't revel or regail about the flags we had won before I was born..
yet I can still remember and think fondly on Matera's 5 goals, Chickie's smother, shepherd, tackle etc. I also smile thinking about Paul Mifka flattening Jason Heatley in the 95 GF
North have won a few in the VFA, 2 with the VFL and 2 with the AFL.
I'm Happy with that.
It is not a different competition, it just changed its name. A VFL premiership cup looks the same as an AFL cup. They all count. And it was actually 11 Vic teams when the competition was RENAMED.
Mr Realistic
Senior List
You can use stats to prove anything you want, 87% of people know that
Yeah, tell that to St. Kilda.
These hypotheticals are pointless, we will never know if a West Coast for example with an extra 50+ years would have won as many premierships as Carl/Ess, or as little as what they currently have.
Then this:
Then this:
And I would suggest you revise some history before you weigh into the debate with completely inaccurate statements.
boro08hawks
Draftee
Seriously im getting pissed off with all these Carlton supporters who only have one way to talk up their team, and thats refering to the past. Sure we all know that you have won the equal most premierships and congrats on that but honestly no one cares about how well your team was in 1908...
"You're only as good as your last game"
AND correct me if i'm wrong but didn't you lose your last game 24.15(159) to 12.9(81)... and coincidentally i THINK that game was against the hawks!
ALSO if we go back to OUR last game we beat the best team in the league of the past 2 years by 26 points. and that was a GRAND FINAL
so if some guy wants to show some statistics of the premiership tally in a different way, read it and if you don't like it than get off the page and read something else... you don't always have to be so defensive
"You're only as good as your last game"
AND correct me if i'm wrong but didn't you lose your last game 24.15(159) to 12.9(81)... and coincidentally i THINK that game was against the hawks!
ALSO if we go back to OUR last game we beat the best team in the league of the past 2 years by 26 points. and that was a GRAND FINAL
so if some guy wants to show some statistics of the premiership tally in a different way, read it and if you don't like it than get off the page and read something else... you don't always have to be so defensive
13% would disagree
You are incorrect on a number of grounds. The VFL invited teams in and became the AFL by deed poll to entice the Crows.
I think the original poster has at least had a crack at this and good on them, but no need to rewrite history. The AFL history teams recognise the VFL years as part of this competition.
Just because the Crows are an amalgam team with no history of your own, doesnt mean you need to try and undermine what actually happened.
And this is an irrefutable argument.
Yes, hawks are the reigining Premiers so lap it up.
Also the Hawks premiership record is just about as good as anyone elses. 10 in 84 years is pretty damn good, only beaten by Eagles / Lions (3 in 22 years) and Carlton / Essendon (1 in just on evbery 7 years).
1995... not 1999
- Aug 16, 2006
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Recently I heard a Carlton supporter bragging about how they have the most premierships in the competition and are therefore the greatest team of all.
Now this got me thinking. Does the fact that they have the most premierships mean that they are the best team to ever grace the AFL?
You could say yes they are (along with Essendon), because they have put in the miles and actually won the cup the most times. But this is not my thinking. Grading 1 team against another if one of the teams has been in the competition for less years can be misleading.
Firstly, there were less teams in the competition to begin with. This leads to a greater chance of winning a flag. 1 out of 8 is alot easier than 1 out of 16.
Secondly, how do we not know that if the 2nd team had been in the competition for that extended period of time that they would not have won a couple?
So to make it fair, While I was bored, I calculated each team VS each team when it comes to premierships, but ONLY for the years that both teams were active. This is show here:
So for example - North has won 4 flags all up, but since adelaide has been in the competition (1991), they have only won 2. So that makes it 2 flags each, so each of these teams are equal (we have a draw).
By calculating all the wins (when they have won more premierships), draws (the same) and losses (won less), we can have a measure which puts every team on equal footing. And here are the results.
From this we can see that Brisbane and West Coast are a fair way ahead of the pack - in their short time in the competition they have won 3 which has pushed them to the top. To break up a tie I have used each teams overall winning percentage.
An interesting thing I saw, was that there is not 1 team that has it over every single team. Each has atleast 1 loss. (Thank god for Hawthorn
BUT... IF the Crows, Brisbane, Carlton, Essendon, Hawthorn OR West Coast win 1 more, they will go down to 0 Losses.
I can see from your avatar that you personify the notion of a good winner. Given your interest in “alternative ladders”, I imagine you will find it particularly interesting that on the all time ladder based on each clubs percentage of wins to losses Hawthorn come in at a lowly tenth (well behind Richmond, Adelaide, Geelong, Port, Brisbane, West Coast, Essendon, Carlton, Collingwood, in that order) and are literally carving it up with an imposing 46% games won.
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