TheMase
Brownlow Medallist
I only stated we didn’t get smashed in the clearances as the poster stated.
Our post clearance, both attacking and defensive, is where it fell apart.
-
AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Opinion The Way Forward
- Thread starter Kiama Chris
- Start date
-
- Tags
- #swans
- Tagged users None
- Status
Our post clearance, both attacking and defensive, is where it fell apart.
The King!
Chosen One
Drawing a long bow but it's a lot of talk about making the grand final different or talk of why's it's hard publicly
There is a difference between clean and pure clearances and what we did though.
How many times did Brisbane win a centre clearance and within 5 to 10 seconds the ball was going into their forward 50 compared to how many times did that happen for us, and not just hack kicks either, but targetted kicks into their forward 50.
No one would say all kicks on the stats sheet are equal, and the same is true of clearances.
Downhill Skier
Team Captain
Scott has won 3 from 9 in Prelims. I have never ever heard it even mentioned . Scott was just lucky in 2022 they got to play us in the GF .
I think Horse made mistakes regarding selection but let’s be honest , 3qtrs of the team have shat the bed twice in 3 years at the big dance
Heeney is our top clearance player in 2024 and he was ranked 15th in the league for clearances.
15th - Heeney
28th - Rowbottom
31st - Grundy
67th - Warner
75th - Gulden
114th - Adams
118th - Parker
None of that inspires confidence. We need a proper clearance winner.
15th - Heeney
28th - Rowbottom
31st - Grundy
67th - Warner
75th - Gulden
114th - Adams
118th - Parker
None of that inspires confidence. We need a proper clearance winner.
- Apr 3, 2011
- 813
- 917
- AFL Club
- Sydney
Need more substance over style players, need complimentary players in our fwd line. Too tall & slow. Ruthless decision making with injured players in the finals.
Most importantly we need better tactics & team selection. Stop being reactionary in our game style & prioritise being proactive in getting 1st touch in the contest. Far too focused on the turnover & slingshot game style.
We've got the players but need to figure out what's their best position for the teams needs. I'd target a better or more mobile 2nd ruck/fwd. Amartey, Mclean & Mcdonald shouldn't be in our best 23 unless they show dominance in VFL.
Papley/Hayward/Jordon
Cleary/KPF or resting ruck/Wicks?
I'd be happy with that forward line, Warner/Heeny can rest fwd too.
Most importantly we need better tactics & team selection. Stop being reactionary in our game style & prioritise being proactive in getting 1st touch in the contest. Far too focused on the turnover & slingshot game style.
We've got the players but need to figure out what's their best position for the teams needs. I'd target a better or more mobile 2nd ruck/fwd. Amartey, Mclean & Mcdonald shouldn't be in our best 23 unless they show dominance in VFL.
Papley/Hayward/Jordon
Cleary/KPF or resting ruck/Wicks?
I'd be happy with that forward line, Warner/Heeny can rest fwd too.
Biggest problem imo, is that most of our issues are mental - Yeah there's some personnel things I'll bang on about all trade season like getting a genuine KPD for example. For most part the pieces are there though.......most problems with the group are mental:
Now we'll have the scars of 2 GF's, who knows what that does to the group? In a fantasy world maybe it makes us stronger but wouldn't be holding my breath and would be putting money on the opposite if I had to.
Some of this definitely falls to coaching, but you can see what it looks like when it works and I'm sure that's what they want it to look like all the time......but then those days where the entire side just bottles a start, a quarter, a whole game - if handful of players do it then it's a probably co-incidence, a few guys having a bad day. When the whole side does it collectively means it's something else. Whether it's on the players / coaches / off-field performance staff / all of the above, don't know....but that gap between our best and worse just can't continue. (yeah they'll still be a couple ordinary loses, always is, but the GF & 112 etc. are far beyond ordinary loses).
That's the bit where I don't know where we go from here, we have the chess pieces to win a flag but how to fix the mental side and get them a bit more unrelenting in that space idk. That's the main challenge of the offseason.
We'll never have a chance better than the one we just had so to defy history says and be top 4 next year we'll need to be mentally tougher to get back there in what will be almost certainly harder circumstances.
- The Starts, problem all year.....and honestly were a problem for a patch in 22 as well but we did fix it up late in that season couldn't manage that this year.
- The Gap between our best and worst. We have not been able to fix this in the last 3 years. Even outside the GF's, In 22 it was not being able to get up for the lessor teams for a while there, This year and last there were non completely non-competitive performances that are as bad as anything a rebuilding North has dished up over the same timeframe.
Now we'll have the scars of 2 GF's, who knows what that does to the group? In a fantasy world maybe it makes us stronger but wouldn't be holding my breath and would be putting money on the opposite if I had to.
Some of this definitely falls to coaching, but you can see what it looks like when it works and I'm sure that's what they want it to look like all the time......but then those days where the entire side just bottles a start, a quarter, a whole game - if handful of players do it then it's a probably co-incidence, a few guys having a bad day. When the whole side does it collectively means it's something else. Whether it's on the players / coaches / off-field performance staff / all of the above, don't know....but that gap between our best and worse just can't continue. (yeah they'll still be a couple ordinary loses, always is, but the GF & 112 etc. are far beyond ordinary loses).
That's the bit where I don't know where we go from here, we have the chess pieces to win a flag but how to fix the mental side and get them a bit more unrelenting in that space idk. That's the main challenge of the offseason.
We'll never have a chance better than the one we just had so to defy history says and be top 4 next year we'll need to be mentally tougher to get back there in what will be almost certainly harder circumstances.
The duplication of threads is part of the BF glitch we still have - and still can't find a solution to.
What occurs is after a user hits Post the application shows that its 'processing' but nothing seeming appears & it hangs so users hit Post again. This results in duplicate posts because the first one has been processed.
When will it get fixed...
Would have been funnier if it was deliberate.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Horse is damaged goods. The doubt in his mind if he ever had to prepare for another grand final would be immense. He needs to fall on his sword.
Plenty to agree with there.
Why not move on from Horse right now though? And do not appoint Cox.
Agree on Rampe, but Horse will keep picking him as the reliable short term option. Is Edwards in any way ready? What about Arnold? He had the rep of one of the best KPDs not getting a game up in Brissie.
Personally I think our first two picks should be key position players with some acceleration and physical traits. After that look at a small forward. Our history of picking skinny shorts early is not great. Is Cleary quick enough to be put in there ITMT? Sheldrick? He was in the GF sprint final so he must be reasonable...
The fish rots from the head down. Pridham needs to go, no Chair should every, under any circumstances, suggest that someone has a job for as long as they want it. Those sorts of comments kill a truly competitive culture, a coach should always been under a degree of pressure to produce. Sometimes its wins, sometimes its improvement there is always a metric to be met.
I wanted Longmire gone after 2022 but so many said no it was just a bad day etc etc.
Simple fact is if you cant get the team to compete on GF you have failed at your job. Yes the players failed dismally but the culture has allowed it. There were no repercussions for 2022 how is that possible. There should have no surprise that dismal effort was repeated.
The whole coaching panel needs to go, the list is okay and there is no reason that at worst we should have had a competitive list yesterday. Can anyone really say that a Scott, Clarkson, Lyon team would have performed like that in a GF. Put aside tactics, game plan etc etc the basic lack of competitiveness is unacceptable.
This group is done we will need substantial list turnover before we will get a side capable of GF success.
Its time for big changes, everyone should be available. The group needs to understand this sort of failure wont be tolerated.
Bite the bullet bring in a new coach, i can accept some steps backward as long as we get back to real bloods football.
We need to remember why the bloods won 2 GF's. It was grit and determination not silky smooth skills. The skills are a bonus the grit is a must as was shown yet again yesterday.
What will happen. More minor tinkering at the edged a wasted year with Longmire on a 1 year contract and all the uncertainty that caused.
I wanted Longmire gone after 2022 but so many said no it was just a bad day etc etc.
Simple fact is if you cant get the team to compete on GF you have failed at your job. Yes the players failed dismally but the culture has allowed it. There were no repercussions for 2022 how is that possible. There should have no surprise that dismal effort was repeated.
The whole coaching panel needs to go, the list is okay and there is no reason that at worst we should have had a competitive list yesterday. Can anyone really say that a Scott, Clarkson, Lyon team would have performed like that in a GF. Put aside tactics, game plan etc etc the basic lack of competitiveness is unacceptable.
This group is done we will need substantial list turnover before we will get a side capable of GF success.
Its time for big changes, everyone should be available. The group needs to understand this sort of failure wont be tolerated.
Bite the bullet bring in a new coach, i can accept some steps backward as long as we get back to real bloods football.
We need to remember why the bloods won 2 GF's. It was grit and determination not silky smooth skills. The skills are a bonus the grit is a must as was shown yet again yesterday.
What will happen. More minor tinkering at the edged a wasted year with Longmire on a 1 year contract and all the uncertainty that caused.
- Apr 26, 2016
- 39,468
- 80,946
- AFL Club
- Sydney
- Moderator
- #65
LONG POST INCOMING
I didn't do much commenting yesterday as I wanted to sleep it off and hopefully be a bit more measured in my thoughts.
Watching yesterday I was reminded of something my junior coach used to always say after a loss: You get the team you coach. I feel like Horse & co yesterday got the team they coached this season and even the last few seasons. It would've been shocking but surely none of it surprising to them.
I think it applies to both micro tactics and elements of the game plan, as well as the more overriding direction of the team.
- Our lack of presence at ground level inside 50 was glaring all day. Just five tackles inside 50, half of what the Lions dished up. There was never any Swans when it hit the deck, no pressure on the Lions defenders trying to exit, and, most alarmingly, no one for the Lions defenders to really worry about. They had Lohmann, and if it wasn't Lohmann, it was Ah Chee. If it wasn't Ah Chee, it was Cameron. If it wasn't Cameron, it was Rayner. If it wasn't Rayner, it was Bailey. Small, ground level threats everywhere inside 50. That's before even getting to their mids who got loose inside 50, like Ashcroft and McCluggage. All of these names combined for 12 goals & 8 tackles inside 50 (more than our entire team.) That's just devastating forward half footy, whilst we had Papley and a bunch of talls & mediums. This after Collingwood also won the flag last year with four smalls in their forward line. You get the team you coach and Horse & co haven't seemed like a coaching group that's quite grasped the importance of this aspect of footy in the 2020s.
- I think this idea that Horse "doesn't care" about clearances is adding a bit of mayo to it. I think a more apt description would be that he doesn't have it as high on the priority list for our team/game plan as other aspects, like ball movement, transition from defensive 50, etc. And in fairness to Horse, many fans on here agreed, and were touting how we wouldn't need to be that great in clearances because we had our turnover game and amazing ball movement from the back half. But you get the team you coach, and you get the midfield you coach. There were many times yesterday - as in almost every game this year - where I looked at our stoppages and what I saw baffled me. Heeney was being wrapped in a bear hug, getting the most opposition attention, this time from Dunkley; Rowbottom had his back to the ball, putting the block on his opponent, mostly Neale; Warner or Gulden were a metre or two away from the ball drop, in position for a handball receive. This scenario played out over and over and over and each time it begged the question - who is winning the ball for us there, and how are they possibly going to do it? Compare that with Brisbane's mids, guys like McCluggage and Ashcroft were just attacking the ball, going straight for the ball drop each time, potential to be caught out of position each time be damned. They took those risks and it paid off. You get the team you coach, and we got the same midfield that is full of quality, talented players but a system that's always going to make winning effective clearances very difficult.
- We had 45 tackles yesterday for the game, 19 less than the Lions, despite them having 80 more possessions. 45 seemed a far cry from the 100 tackles we managed in the 2012 GF. To console myself yesterday I watched that grand final again, maybe looking for things that that group had that this group does not. What was clear watching that game, is that Rowbottom is close to the only current Swan who is imbued with the same spirit as that bunch. It's a certain fearlessness, tenacity and determination. But the rhetoric around players like Rowbottom has been problematic all year, or for multiple years. Because he's not the player being put on a pedestal or used as a benchmark for his teammates to meet or measure themselves against. Instead he's the player being used as an "out", a cover for his teammates so they don't have to show that same fearlessness, tenacity and determination. "He does all the hard stuff," his teammates often say. Ummm, you mean cracking in? Making one percenters? Giving second and third efforts? Tackling? Smothering? Just generally giving a shite? You get the team you coach, and the minute these all became selective things done by the few, rather than non-negotiables expected of the many, our whole DNA as a team and club changed.
All in all, I think what I want to see going forward is the club to find that DNA again. Remember what the Bloods is all about. It's not showing up for fourth quarter cameos when the pace is out of the game and it's all opened up so you can produce some highlights and pick up coaches votes. It's not picking and choosing when to defend or contest or put your body on the line because those things "aren't part of your role." It's not looking to teammates who give their all and hoping/expecting they'll take you over the line, but actually emulating their efforts as a team. You get the team you coach - over to Horse & co to make us a team of hardness, grit and character again.
Apologies for the long post.
I didn't do much commenting yesterday as I wanted to sleep it off and hopefully be a bit more measured in my thoughts.
Watching yesterday I was reminded of something my junior coach used to always say after a loss: You get the team you coach. I feel like Horse & co yesterday got the team they coached this season and even the last few seasons. It would've been shocking but surely none of it surprising to them.
I think it applies to both micro tactics and elements of the game plan, as well as the more overriding direction of the team.
- Our lack of presence at ground level inside 50 was glaring all day. Just five tackles inside 50, half of what the Lions dished up. There was never any Swans when it hit the deck, no pressure on the Lions defenders trying to exit, and, most alarmingly, no one for the Lions defenders to really worry about. They had Lohmann, and if it wasn't Lohmann, it was Ah Chee. If it wasn't Ah Chee, it was Cameron. If it wasn't Cameron, it was Rayner. If it wasn't Rayner, it was Bailey. Small, ground level threats everywhere inside 50. That's before even getting to their mids who got loose inside 50, like Ashcroft and McCluggage. All of these names combined for 12 goals & 8 tackles inside 50 (more than our entire team.) That's just devastating forward half footy, whilst we had Papley and a bunch of talls & mediums. This after Collingwood also won the flag last year with four smalls in their forward line. You get the team you coach and Horse & co haven't seemed like a coaching group that's quite grasped the importance of this aspect of footy in the 2020s.
- I think this idea that Horse "doesn't care" about clearances is adding a bit of mayo to it. I think a more apt description would be that he doesn't have it as high on the priority list for our team/game plan as other aspects, like ball movement, transition from defensive 50, etc. And in fairness to Horse, many fans on here agreed, and were touting how we wouldn't need to be that great in clearances because we had our turnover game and amazing ball movement from the back half. But you get the team you coach, and you get the midfield you coach. There were many times yesterday - as in almost every game this year - where I looked at our stoppages and what I saw baffled me. Heeney was being wrapped in a bear hug, getting the most opposition attention, this time from Dunkley; Rowbottom had his back to the ball, putting the block on his opponent, mostly Neale; Warner or Gulden were a metre or two away from the ball drop, in position for a handball receive. This scenario played out over and over and over and each time it begged the question - who is winning the ball for us there, and how are they possibly going to do it? Compare that with Brisbane's mids, guys like McCluggage and Ashcroft were just attacking the ball, going straight for the ball drop each time, potential to be caught out of position each time be damned. They took those risks and it paid off. You get the team you coach, and we got the same midfield that is full of quality, talented players but a system that's always going to make winning effective clearances very difficult.
- We had 45 tackles yesterday for the game, 19 less than the Lions, despite them having 80 more possessions. 45 seemed a far cry from the 100 tackles we managed in the 2012 GF. To console myself yesterday I watched that grand final again, maybe looking for things that that group had that this group does not. What was clear watching that game, is that Rowbottom is close to the only current Swan who is imbued with the same spirit as that bunch. It's a certain fearlessness, tenacity and determination. But the rhetoric around players like Rowbottom has been problematic all year, or for multiple years. Because he's not the player being put on a pedestal or used as a benchmark for his teammates to meet or measure themselves against. Instead he's the player being used as an "out", a cover for his teammates so they don't have to show that same fearlessness, tenacity and determination. "He does all the hard stuff," his teammates often say. Ummm, you mean cracking in? Making one percenters? Giving second and third efforts? Tackling? Smothering? Just generally giving a shite? You get the team you coach, and the minute these all became selective things done by the few, rather than non-negotiables expected of the many, our whole DNA as a team and club changed.
All in all, I think what I want to see going forward is the club to find that DNA again. Remember what the Bloods is all about. It's not showing up for fourth quarter cameos when the pace is out of the game and it's all opened up so you can produce some highlights and pick up coaches votes. It's not picking and choosing when to defend or contest or put your body on the line because those things "aren't part of your role." It's not looking to teammates who give their all and hoping/expecting they'll take you over the line, but actually emulating their efforts as a team. You get the team you coach - over to Horse & co to make us a team of hardness, grit and character again.
Apologies for the long post.
killerspud
Premiership Player
- Aug 23, 2009
- 4,643
- 11,679
- AFL Club
- Hawthorn
Always wonder how you make finals given that (other than Buddy and Papley) you dont.have any forwards..seriously where do the goals come from. Need another small forward a key forward and a mid sized forward. Everything else is solid. Ditch Parker, should have played Taylor Adams ahead of him
Downhill Skier
Team Captain
Heeney was another avenue in previous years .
RocketBooster
Senior List
The players we have are pretty good, i don't blame the players. Take a few like Amartey out, a few retirements, the backups are there
The guys play to the system they are coached with and it falls down in the Big games
Last time Longmire got a stern talking to about his boring as batshit defensive game, the upshot was in came Don Pyke and the Swans were exciting to watch again.
The guys play to the system they are coached with and it falls down in the Big games
Last time Longmire got a stern talking to about his boring as batshit defensive game, the upshot was in came Don Pyke and the Swans were exciting to watch again.
- Mar 29, 2019
- 3,502
- 10,210
- AFL Club
- Sydney
This is from a piece in The Age:
Longmire is contracted only through to the end of 2025, and AFL clubs typically try to avoid going into a season with a question mark over the tenure of their head coach. While chairman Andrew Pridham has said Longmire has the job for as long as he wants it, the 53-year-old is said to be wrestling with his future, unsure of what he wants to do beyond next year.
It might also be time for the Swans to wrestle with theirs, and ask themselves the hard question: is Longmire the man who can take them to the ultimate glory? The answer might very well be yes, but there surely needs to be some changes – perhaps some new assistant coaches, perhaps a new game plan, perhaps an external review to determine where the problems really lay.
Longmire is contracted only through to the end of 2025, and AFL clubs typically try to avoid going into a season with a question mark over the tenure of their head coach. While chairman Andrew Pridham has said Longmire has the job for as long as he wants it, the 53-year-old is said to be wrestling with his future, unsure of what he wants to do beyond next year.
It might also be time for the Swans to wrestle with theirs, and ask themselves the hard question: is Longmire the man who can take them to the ultimate glory? The answer might very well be yes, but there surely needs to be some changes – perhaps some new assistant coaches, perhaps a new game plan, perhaps an external review to determine where the problems really lay.
RilesMacca
Close checking with Kane Cornes
- Apr 4, 2021
- 2,156
- 4,828
- AFL Club
- Sydney
- Other Teams
- New Orleans Saints
It has to be acknowledged that making grand finals is very difficult for every club, so there is something to hang our hat onto regarding success. However the same old happens every time, we don't mentally turn up. We can't control games and oppos are able to stifle and punish us in a qtr of footy.
We know our best can win it, maybe it really is time for a new voice and a change. Losing by 10 goals with all the advantages vs Brisbane leaves a lot of questions asked.
Midfield mix might need a tune up for next year. Can't have Rowbottom and Grundy doing all the inside work, whilst Chad gets 3 contested possessions from 20 and Gulden being nullified. Unless Heeney is able to turn it on which elevates our team (like the QF).
Chad and Errol have both had great years, but hoping they have a big offseason. Chad needs to improve his inside midfield craft to elevate his game even more, Gulden to get stronger. He would've learned alot this year with more attention on him.
We aren't realistically going to attract any top KPD's but we all know it feels like we're an elite key back away. Rampe 35 next year and TMac a few heavy concussions away from retirement. Development of Edwards and Snell with be important. Frost in our back 6 I'd like in the trade period.
As for the forwards, would love to see a breakout year from one of our smalls next season, Hanily or Konstanty (Cleary?). It's optimistic, but with how the game is developing your smalls and medium forwards are crucial to the front half game.
Hayden and Joel are honest players who should be proud of their seasons, but the talls have been a key issue to going home empty handed. Do not get enough service from them. We're bottom 4 in the competition this year for contested and intercept marks. Below the AFL average for marks inside 50.
Yesterdays performance was a disaster for the forward line. Not only the entries were ordinary, but the talls couldn't influence and the ground level game in the forward 50 alongside pressure was atrocious. Buller is the only KPF under 25 on our list, but has come off a LT stress fracture, wouldn't mind picking a tall in the draft. I feel Parker has to go if we are wanting to move forward too.
We know our best can win it, maybe it really is time for a new voice and a change. Losing by 10 goals with all the advantages vs Brisbane leaves a lot of questions asked.
Midfield mix might need a tune up for next year. Can't have Rowbottom and Grundy doing all the inside work, whilst Chad gets 3 contested possessions from 20 and Gulden being nullified. Unless Heeney is able to turn it on which elevates our team (like the QF).
Chad and Errol have both had great years, but hoping they have a big offseason. Chad needs to improve his inside midfield craft to elevate his game even more, Gulden to get stronger. He would've learned alot this year with more attention on him.
We aren't realistically going to attract any top KPD's but we all know it feels like we're an elite key back away. Rampe 35 next year and TMac a few heavy concussions away from retirement. Development of Edwards and Snell with be important. Frost in our back 6 I'd like in the trade period.
As for the forwards, would love to see a breakout year from one of our smalls next season, Hanily or Konstanty (Cleary?). It's optimistic, but with how the game is developing your smalls and medium forwards are crucial to the front half game.
Hayden and Joel are honest players who should be proud of their seasons, but the talls have been a key issue to going home empty handed. Do not get enough service from them. We're bottom 4 in the competition this year for contested and intercept marks. Below the AFL average for marks inside 50.
Yesterdays performance was a disaster for the forward line. Not only the entries were ordinary, but the talls couldn't influence and the ground level game in the forward 50 alongside pressure was atrocious. Buller is the only KPF under 25 on our list, but has come off a LT stress fracture, wouldn't mind picking a tall in the draft. I feel Parker has to go if we are wanting to move forward too.
The King!
Chosen One
Logan needs to live up to his draft ranking for us to really take a leap and become the main man.
Amartey and Mclean will always be the support solid players at best, but Mcdonald was pick 4 for a reason.
Amartey and Mclean will always be the support solid players at best, but Mcdonald was pick 4 for a reason.
killerspud
Premiership Player
- Aug 23, 2009
- 4,643
- 11,679
- AFL Club
- Hawthorn
Always think of Heeney ad a mid who kicks goals. That's icing not cake.
Swan_Lifer
Debutant
- May 5, 2024
- 68
- 209
- AFL Club
- Sydney
Yes to all points.
With Warner(s) and drafting generally, Tasmania are coming in 2028, and into the draft earlier than that.
The time is now. WCE have trade capital now.
Brisbane have a damn good list, and a Father-Son got the Norm Smith. Let's not forget that.
The King!
Chosen One
May be so, but he's there and has a 4 year deal so we need him to keep improving and break out . Not saying he isn't tracking ok either , but we need someone who can maximise forward entries and really draw defenders . they all take time, but if he could become good for 50-60 a year then everyone else's performance flows on
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
