Time to re-think the secondary markets

[WesternSydneyHawk]

As you said, they're not sports. People are much more parochial about their sports. Until you give an example of a sport fitting the criteria, you're comparing apples to oranges.

The sports that are named after a school in the town of Rugby, Warwickshire, seems to be doing alright.

As is the running event that's named after a town in Greece called Marathon.

The sporting carnival they named after Mt Olympus in Greece seems to attract a bit of international attention, both from spectators and athletes.

And tennis fans internationally don't seem to mind their big event being named after a suburb of London...

So if the entire city was available for a stadium, why pick an area based around driving, with no light rail line yet and little to no food and drink options? They're better off picking something closer to the CBD and/or existing light rail, if there's a suitable place.

For what it's worth, I like your suggestion of s stadium at Wickham Park (i.e. Hawkins Oval).

I think having a stadium in the area around Broadmeadow Station isn't bad, although I think the Newcastle Showgrounds would be a better place to put it than the harness racing track.

There's also a lot of light industry in the area immediately around Broadmeadow Station that could probably be put to better use.

It would also make sense to have new apartment blocks being built in that area, instead of the public transport blackspot that is Charlestown.

The rugby league stadium was opened the same year as Waverley Park. And like Waverley Park, it was planned in the age where everyone drove to everything, and rail lines and tram systems were being shut down due to collapsing demand. In those days it didn't matter if anything was walking distance from anything else. But that's not the world we live in today. We've realised the limits of people driving everywhere, and now a good match day experience is based on convenient public transport and having food and drink options within walking distance of the stadium.

Many of the people travelling to the stadium are likely to be coming from the Central Coast and Sydney, so having the site along the train line south of Newcastle Interchange makes sense.

Having a station immediately next to Newcastle Interchange probably isn't tge highest and best use of that land.

Number One Sports Ground is roughly as far from Newcastle Interchange as McDonald Jones is from Broadmeadow.

Wickham Park is near Hamilton Station, so that works.

And Newcastle Showgrounds, with an upgraded Entertainment Centre (or perhaps on the site of the Newcastle District Tennis Club) with some urban renewal around it would work?

Carrara is in the middle of nowhere and has no light rail connection, and the Showground is in a somewhat isolated sports park, only serviced by a rail shuttle loop, that lacks any atmosphere outside of the Easter Show or a big rugby league event

In fairness, the walk from McDonald Jones to the nearest train station is a lot closer than from Carrara Stadium to Nerang station or Waverley Park to Glen Waverley station.

But I get your broader point about the need for mixed use development around stadiums, instead of the '70s car-centric approach. (I've argued in another thread GWS might be better off with a new stadium in Parramatta.)

I think a lot of that modern approach is to treat a new stadium as part of a precinct development, rather than a standalone building.

And there's certainly a lot of scope for a lot mire development, including new housing, shops, and restaurants to be built around Broadmeadow station.

So I think a new stadium near Broadmeadow station could work, but it would need to be part of a precinct-scale development.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

The sports that are named after a school in the town of Rugby, Warwickshire, seems to be doing alright.

As is the running event that's named after a town in Greece called Marathon.

The sporting carnival they named after Mt Olympus in Greece seems to attract a bit of international attention, both from spectators and athletes.

And tennis fans internationally don't seem to mind their big event being named after a suburb of London...

These are not countries or continents. If the sports were called English football, Greek running, the European Games or British Racquetball I think they would be seen differently.

For what it's worth, I like your suggestion of s stadium at Wickham Park (i.e. Hawkins Oval).

I think having a stadium in the area around Broadmeadow Station isn't bad, although I think the Newcastle Showgrounds would be a better place to put it than the harness racing track.

I agree, it's a lot closer to the station and there's ample space to do an urban renewal project including food and drink outlets. And I agree being near a heavy rail station is important for travelling fans. Both Wickham Park and the Showground would be good options. If I had to choose between them, right now I'd pick Wickham due to better surrounding infrastructure. Broadmeadow could get there in time, but it needs some investment.

In fairness, the walk from McDonald Jones to the nearest train station is a lot closer than from Carrara Stadium to Nerang station or Waverley Park to Glen Waverley station.

That's true, but a new stadium should be seeking to emulate the best stadium experiences, not just to be slightly better than the worst ones.

But I get your broader point about the need for mixed use development around stadiums, instead of the '70s car-centric approach. (I've argued in another thread GWS might be better off with a new stadium in Parramatta.)

I may have replied to that comment saying it would have been a good idea 15 years ago but it isn't going to happen now. But we'll leave that for another thread. Point is cities rarely get a shot at a new major stadium, so they really need to get the location right.

I think a lot of that modern approach is to treat a new stadium as part of a precinct development, rather than a standalone building.

And there's certainly a lot of scope for a lot mire development, including new housing, shops, and restaurants to be built around Broadmeadow station.

So I think a new stadium near Broadmeadow station could work, but it would need to be part of a precinct-scale development.

Agree with all this. Wherever they go with, there needs to be a proper masterplan for the area rather than just planning a stadium in isolation. And I think it needs to be planned around a light rail station no matter where it is. By bringing in the light rail, the state government signalled that's what it wants the main form of public transport within Newcastle to be, so it's a must have.

 

[errant bounce]

I think there's an essential problem with the game expanding internationally - if it continues to be called Australian rules football or AFL, it'll be very hard for it to gain acceptance, because the name implies the game can't belong to anyone else except Australians. I can't think of any other sport with a nationality or geographic area in its name that makes serious inroads internationally. American football might sell tickets when they play games overseas, but has very little overseas participation. European handball might be in the Olympics but it will never attract much interest outside of that.

If we're serious about international expansion, the game needs rebranding, to "footy" or something similar. While that term might be used informally to refer to other sports in other countries, it isn't a dominant term anywhere. And I get that it doesn't sound very sophisticated, but if the SAAFL can change its name to the "Adelaide Footy League", then footy is a good enough term for marketing elsewhere too.

The English Premier League and American football don't seem to struggle much.

Rebranding it and pretending it's something it isn't won't work.

Basketball, baseball have their fans and no one cares they're ostensibly American sports.

 

[Bjo187]

The English Premier League and American football don't seem to struggle much.

Rebranding it and pretending it's something it isn't won't work.

Basketball, baseball have their fans and no one cares they're ostensibly American sports.

Lol have you heard of the sports of soccer, football and gridiron, as they are commonly referred to everywhere else in the world? Proving the point exactly, that you don't get someone down the park playing for Brunswick zebras saying 'let's go play English premier league down the park'.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

The English Premier League

The sport is not called English Premier League.

and American football don't seem to struggle much.

Really? How many people participate in the sport outside the US? Has there ever been a full time team outside the US?

Rebranding it and pretending it's something it isn't won't work.

Who said to pretend it's something it isn't? Why won't rebranding it work?

Basketball, baseball have their fans and no one cares they're ostensibly American sports.

Neither are American. Basketball was invented by a Canadian and baseball comes from the British game rounders. And more to the point, neither have the name of a country or continent in their name.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

I wonder if there is any scope/interest for games to be sold to Auckland (NZ north island) and Christchurch (NZ South Island).

The two largest metropolitan areas in Oceania (on our side of the International Dateline), that don’t have an AFL team, or even host any games.

List of metropolitan areas in Oceania by population - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

View attachment 2113888

Perhaps with Tasmania getting a team, it opens up two games being sold to each city.

A big issue will be finding a suitable playing venue. Being a cricket nation, atleast there should be ovals. Could just put up temp stands like they do in Mt Barker for Gather Round.

Another issue is if they could draw a decent attendance. But with Auckland being 7 times larger than Hobart and 20 times larger than Launceston, surely they can get a few. Christchurch is larger than Townsville and Cairns which have hosted games previously.

There isn't a stadium in either city to play the games in. The only stadium that has an appropriate field dize in the entirety of NZ that hosts 20,000+ is the Cake Tin stadium in Wellington, in which St Kilda already tried to take a game there and while the first year was successful, the two subsequent ones weren't.

The AFL will almost certainly take a game or two to Auckland per year, if and when they build a 20-30,000 seat international cricket stadium, which they need but been dragging their heels on for a long time.

 

[Coolangatta]

What I’d like to see but doubt will happen:

Canberra team 20, maybe play one game in Albury.

North take over NT: 2 games Darwin, 1 hosting the Suns; 1 game Alice hosting the Dees.

Hawks play 2 games in Cairns, 1 hosting the Lions, 1 hosting the Suns.

Dees play 1 game in Newcastle, hosting alternating Swans and Giants.

Saints play 1 game in Auckland.

Dogs keep playing 2 in Ballarat.

Suns play all their home games at GC, Giants play all theirs in Sydney.

 

[kranger]

What I’d like to see but doubt will happen:

Canberra team 20, maybe play one game in Albury.

North take over NT: 2 games Darwin, 1 hosting the Suns; 1 game Alice hosting the Dees.

Hawks play 2 games in Cairns, 1 hosting the Lions, 1 hosting the Suns.

Dees play 1 game in Newcastle, hosting alternating Swans and Giants.

Saints play 1 game in Auckland.

Dogs keep playing 2 in Ballarat.

Suns play all their home games at GC, Giants play all theirs in Sydney.

It would be good if for the Alice Springs game, the away team was one of the two WA teams on an annual rotation, as that is the shortest flight to any ground from Perth, to reduce their travel load.

 

[errant bounce]

It would be good if for the Alice Springs game, the away team was one of the two WA teams on an annual rotation, as that is the shortest flight to any ground from Perth, to reduce their travel load.

With one Darwin game rotating between the two Adelaide clubs.

 

[WesternSydneyHawk]

Here's a left-field idea, but could one of the Victorian teams potentially play its home games against West Coast and Freeo in Bunbury?

Bunbury has a population of 75,000, so around three-quarters the population of Ballarat (around 100,000) and triple the population of Alice Springs (around 25,000), both of which host AFL games.

West Coast and Freeo are unlikely to host a home game there, given the heavy demand for tickets at Optus.

It's not large enough to justify its own club. But you would probably draw a decent crowd, both of locals and folks driving down from Perth and Mandurah, if a match were held there.

Potentially more than a match against West Coast or Freeo in Melbourne, or many of the other secondary markets.

The added benefit is that it reduces the number of trips the WA clubs make to the east coast.

Thoughts?

 

[kranger]

Here's a left-field idea, but could one of the Victorian teams potentially play its home games against West Coast and Freeo in Bunbury?

Bunbury has a population of 75,000, so around three-quarters the population of Ballarat (around 100,000) and triple the population of Alice Springs (around 25,000), both of which host AFL games.

West Coast and Freeo are unlikely to host a home game there, given the heavy demand for tickets at Optus.

It's not large enough to justify its own club. But you would probably draw a decent crowd, both of locals and folks driving down from Perth and Mandurah, if a match were held there.

Potentially more than a match against West Coast or Freeo in Melbourne, or many of the other secondary markets.

The added benefit is that it reduces the number of trips the WA clubs make to the east coast.

Thoughts?

The big issue is that Bunbury doesn’t have an airport that takes jets. So any team flying in would need to land at Perth Airport and drive for 2hrs south or charter a flight to Busselton Airport and then drive 45mins north.

It’s almost like it would be better to host the game in Busselton which has a population of 40,000 but growing faster than anywhere else in WA.

It would still be able to draw from the population of Bunbury, but also be close to more towns in the states South West.

With one Darwin game rotating between the two Adelaide clubs.

Adelaide is actually close enough to Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane, that by making the Crows or Port play in Darwin your increasing their travel.

Great Circle Map

Great Circle Map displays the shortest route between airports and calculates the distance. It draws geodesic flight paths on top of Google maps, so you can create your own route map.

www.greatcirclemap.com

If we are selecting a team to try and address the travel imbalance, it would be better to pick the Melbourne team that would otherwise travel the least that year to play as the away team in Darwin.

 

[Garwood18]

Here's a left-field idea, but could one of the Victorian teams potentially play its home games against West Coast and Freeo in Bunbury?

Bunbury has a population of 75,000, so around three-quarters the population of Ballarat (around 100,000) and triple the population of Alice Springs (around 25,000), both of which host AFL games.

West Coast and Freeo are unlikely to host a home game there, given the heavy demand for tickets at Optus.

It's not large enough to justify its own club. But you would probably draw a decent crowd, both of locals and folks driving down from Perth and Mandurah, if a match were held there.

Potentially more than a match against West Coast or Freeo in Melbourne, or many of the other secondary markets.

The added benefit is that it reduces the number of trips the WA clubs make to the east coast.

Thoughts?

Love this.
Our local ground , Hands Oval just about to finish a major development of a grand stand and we are crying out for higher levels of footy to return. WAFL or AFL and the buzz around town is that we are bidding on a game. Give us a crack at a pre season AFL game with any 2 teams and watch us fill the heck out of that oval.

 

[Walshawk]

It would be good if for the Alice Springs game, the away team was one of the two WA teams on an annual rotation, as that is the shortest flight to any ground from Perth, to reduce their travel load.

Alice Springs should just host the Indigenous All Stars game that they are talking about bringing back pre-season. It is too small for AFL games, and Darwin won’t be used in Feb/March due to wet season. North to play 2/3 games in Darwin.

 

[Rob]

The big issue is that Bunbury doesn’t have an airport that takes jets. So any team flying in would need to land at Perth Airport and drive for 2hrs south or charter a flight to Busselton Airport and then drive 45mins north.

It’s almost like it would be better to host the game in Busselton which has a population of 40,000 but growing faster than anywhere else in WA.

It would still be able to draw from the population of Bunbury, but also be close to more towns in the states South West.

Yeah it's never going to happen as no club would give away their HGA and travel 4 hours, but if it was to happen then it would be better off being in Busselton. A lot more accommodation and you could build a half decent ground there while selling the tourism benefits much more. And near the airport.

WA government has a shit ton of cash so maybe it's not completely impossible. Hawthorn perhaps could be sold the idea once they get kicked out of Tassie?

Edit: Greater Bunbury (which includes Harvey and Collie) had a population of 115k as at 30 June 2023. Busselton was 44k, 55k if you include Margaret River.