Autopsy To our fraud midfield

Remove this Banner Ad

EskimoPAFC said:
Well it does

We failed just like we wished Oppenheimer had failed

In doing so we realised that the real premierships were the white noise we ignored along the way
Click to expand...
Oh… Thanks!

The message was that the score didn’t matter in the grand scheme of things; that success might come back to haunt you.

I was trying to think of a winning message. I would never understand it. Now, I get it…
 
EskimoPAFC said:
Well it does

We failed just like we wished Oppenheimer had failed

In doing so we realised that the real premierships were the white noise we ignored along the way
Click to expand...
Isn’t history saying that the Germans were building a nuke too? If they did it first, heaven help us.

A bit like GWS nuking our midfield. It was torched. If Carr is so good and it’s his first final why did it happen? All our losses this year have been when our midfield has been completely dismantled. Unlike Collingwood, we can’t stem the bleeding.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Poo Eckert said:
Isn’t history saying that the Germans were building a nuke too? If they did it first, heaven help us.

A bit like GWS nuking our midfield. It was torched. If Carr is so good and it’s his first final why did it happen? All our losses this year have been when our midfield has been completely dismantled. Unlike Collingwood, we can’t stem the bleeding.
Click to expand...
No matter how anybody wants to theorise around explanations, the simple reality is that our midfield both in terms of motivation and tactics, completely flipped from excellent to garbage the second Ken got re-signed in early July.

I'm not sure if Carr could have been a good coach, but we've missed his moment and will probably never know now. He made a big mistake by not going to the Tiges.
 
Macca19 said:
Dear Scott, Zac, Connor, Willem, Xavier, Travis, Jason and Ollie

Well done on the most insipid, shambolic half of football from a midfield group we’ve seen since 2003.

Earned your money guys!
Click to expand...
its more bad coaching than anything,
We have a coach who is happy for Ollie to get a game playing 60 percent of the time on the wing, this is what is accepted, really it should be Ollie if you cant be the man at stoppage then maybe its time to move on

we have a coach who refuses to put spp in the centre square like the whole club will implode if he does

We have a coach who wont put boak in there for period nor will he try guys like duursma, Bergman or Houston as starting center square men, Bergman is most probably the most obvious one because he has all the attributes of a big bodies midfielders and houston is very rarly put on the ball

instead we go for the same thing in jhf, rozee and butters. This combo is fine when everything is going right but it can go pear shaped very quickly mainly because these 3 are not big bodied midfielders and can get pushed around particually when the oppo ruck is dominating

The hightlight reel will show you that when these 3 are firing its all good but the reality is the best teams can always shut down light-weight show ponies and Ken most probably doesnt even realise that its better to have a midfield that can control the ball rather than one that can put on the show reel. Its been a constant trend for Ken, his teams looks light light-weight when it comes to the crunch because they are coached to look good against average teams instead of being tough to play against.
 
GremioPower said:
I’ve watched it. It’s not clear to me what is the message they wanted the players to get.
Click to expand...
In that car crash of an interview Ken did before the Brisbane final he tried to say that the theme in using that movie was 'a bunch of people coming together and working towards a goal as a team' or something to that effect.

Didn't make sense at the time, makes less sense now. There are literally dozens of movies, sports or otherwise, where teamwork and working under pressure is a theme that they wouldn't have had to defend if it came out (and the vast majority of those films aren't told in a jumpy, non-chronological way that most people would struggle to follow, much less footballers).

Instead they chose the pop-culture flavour of the month and it ended up with our inarticulate bumpkin coach trying to defend it and then using the 'I haven't seen the movie' line as a way to dodge the question because his knowledge of modern history would be as shallow as a puddle.

That interview was as much an analogy for our finals series as anything else, incompetent and ended up being a complete flail from start to finish.
 
GremioPower said:
I’ve watched it. It’s not clear to me what is the message they wanted the players to get.
Click to expand...
To me it made sense, in the movie they build the rural city for everyone to work on it and there’s so many people who worked towards building the bomb as well as their families who came with them. It’s a sound analogy in that there’s some equivalency, it’s just that they were building something that was intended to cause mass loss of life… not something you’d want to link a footy team to. Plus there’s the bombing out of finals connotation, just way too many cons than pros to using the analogy.

Also the interesting part to me is that even though so many people worked towards building the bomb, the movie was named after Oppenheimer himself, dare I say it, the head coach of the whole operation. I guess that makes sense as even though 23 blokes go to battle for us every week the stories were all about our head coach and what he can do to get another extension.
 
I have been saying for a long time but we have too many see ball get ball type mids, and nobody holds back and/or sits on their opponents long enough with Drew being the exception.

Wines, Ebert and Boak have done/did it all their careers.

Butters, Rozee and JHF did it in both finals. Rozee had a great second quarter against Lions because he stood back, no Lions player sat on him, and he got fed the ball and was damaging that quarter. But the Lions mids adjusted on him after half time.

Butters spent too much time falling over at stoppages, especially centre bounce downs in both night finals.

Time to get the right farken boots! What the bloody hell are you doing Alfie.
 
Last edited:
wgt said:
its more bad coaching than anything,
We have a coach who is happy for Ollie to get a game playing 60 percent of the time on the wing, this is what is accepted, really it should be Ollie if you cant be the man at stoppage then maybe its time to move on

we have a coach who refuses to put spp in the centre square like the whole club will implode if he does

We have a coach who wont put boak in there for period nor will he try guys like duursma, Bergman or Houston as starting center square men, Bergman is most probably the most obvious one because he has all the attributes of a big bodies midfielders and houston is very rarly put on the ball

instead we go for the same thing in jhf, rozee and butters. This combo is fine when everything is going right but it can go pear shaped very quickly mainly because these 3 are not big bodied midfielders and can get pushed around particually when the oppo ruck is dominating

The hightlight reel will show you that when these 3 are firing its all good but the reality is the best teams can always shut down light-weight show ponies and Ken most probably doesnt even realise that its better to have a midfield that can control the ball rather than one that can put on the show reel. Its been a constant trend for Ken, his teams looks light light-weight when it comes to the crunch because they are coached to look good against average teams instead of being tough to play against.
Click to expand...
It all comes down to having plan b, c and d.

I dont think there is anything wrong with starting with those 3, its won us a lot of games. A good coach makes moves as soon as they can see it isnt working.
 
Take the emotion out of it and this is where we are at.

Rozie (23yo) & Butters (23yo) are 23 years old. Still probably 2-3 years away from being at peak strength & fitness.
Dursma (23yo) is a similar situation but needs decent preseasons going forward. Not as talented as Rozie or Butters so he will need to develop a tank and strong work ethic to overcome this.

Drew (24yo). Probably going to be the most consistent player in the team providing Ken doesn't make a full forward out of him. Once again 2-3 years away from peak strength & fitness. Has a permanent role as a negating midfielder.

Francis (20yo). Just focus on core strength & fitness. His talent will see him out during his career. Don't rush the weights too much otherwise he would probably turn into Wines.

Wines (28yo). Needs a big preseason and refocus. Maybe tone down on muscle mass to improve mobility & speed? Most bulls these days are strong and quick. Hopefully Ken plays him in his prime position on ball.

Boak (35yo). Not sure why he is still going? Sure he has the hunger but will he be competitive all year out?

Find a ruck and stick with it. Hayes seems to be a better option to give our mids first use. Warhorse rucks such as Lycett are a liability.
 
The best midfields have at least seven players rolling through. Ours uses five exclusively. Rushing through the corridor every opportunity also reduces the time spent in control of the ball and puts it in the opposition’s hands more often placing more pressure on the defenders and the defensive side of our game which is not a strength. So in a nutshell, our game plan is to give the opposition extended control of the footy and more scoring opportunities. As we all saw, it doesn’t quite work in finals against good teams.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

ibd77 said:
Take the emotion out of it and this is where we are at.

Rozie (23yo) & Butters (23yo) are 23 years old. Still probably 2-3 years away from being at peak strength & fitness.
Dursma (23yo) is a similar situation but needs decent preseasons going forward. Not as talented as Rozie or Butters so he will need to develop a tank and strong work ethic to overcome this.

Drew (24yo). Probably going to be the most consistent player in the team providing Ken doesn't make a full forward out of him. Once again 2-3 years away from peak strength & fitness. Has a permanent role as a negating midfielder.

Francis (20yo). Just focus on core strength & fitness. His talent will see him out during his career. Don't rush the weights too much otherwise he would probably turn into Wines.

Wines (28yo). Needs a big preseason and refocus. Maybe tone down on muscle mass to improve mobility & speed? Most bulls these days are strong and quick. Hopefully Ken plays him in his prime position on ball.

Boak (35yo). Not sure why he is still going? Sure he has the hunger but will he be competitive all year out?

Find a ruck and stick with it. Hayes seems to be a better option to give our mids first use. Warhorse rucks such as Lycett are a liability.
Click to expand...
Even though this has been flashed by Kochhead himself, it is true. We are still young.

Lets try and see the age profile of the best players for the Power.
Rozee 23, Butters 23, Houston 26, Horne-Francis 20, Aliir 29, Bergman 21, Marshall 24.

Even if you look at the Giants, their best players are in that zone.
Green 30, Green 22, Coniglio 29, Whitfield 29, Kelly 28, Briggs 23, Taylor 24

Brisbane Lions
Neale 30, McCluggage 25, Cameron 29, Ashcroft 19, Andrews 26, Dunkley 26, McInerney 29

Collingwood
Nick Daicos 20, De Goey 27, Moore 27, Crisp 30, Sidebottom 32, Pendlebury 35, Josh Daicos 25

Yes, I know you will disagree with some of the names but our best players, the players that impact the game when we win are still very young in AFL terms.

They are mainly in the midfield or the guts or could play in the guts and we didn't have a ruck all year!!!!!!!!!!!

And yes, I am not using youth as an excuse but as a reason that has some validity to it.
 
Most of us will never know what goes on behind closed doors but I'll go with:

During the minor round Ken humours his assistant coaches with their weird, new age fandangle tactics and computer wizz stuff. But when it comes to finals the great man takes control and go back to the core beliefs of workery hardery for longery.

Because the great man has to take control because FINALS ARE SCARY.
 
I think part of the problem is not knowing how to position up at centre bounces.

Do you attempt to read a Lycett tap that might be won but could end up anywhere
Or, a Hayes tap is probably coming your way
Or, go full defensive when Teakle is in the ruck

It's not surprising that they aren't well drilled when this club spent the whole year experimenting with that position and only then going back to the same old well that had been a proven failure.
 
Poo Eckert said:
I can’t see how Rozee and Butters aren’t in their prime at 23. All the great mids are.
Click to expand...
I am going to reply with both sides.

It is Butter's first full year in the midfield [Round 4] but he also won the Coaches Award this year.
It is Rozee's second full year in the midfield but has two AAs.
 
Peninsula Boy said:
I am going to reply with both sides.

It is Butter's first full year in the midfield [Round 4] but he also won the Coaches Award this year.
It is Rozee's second full year in the midfield but has two AAs.
Click to expand...

I think the point Rick is making is that the truly great midfielders start playing their best football at a relatively young age and just keep going for years after that. This would match up well with the achievements you have mentioned.
 
TeeKray said:
I think the point Rick is making is that the truly great midfielders start playing their best football at a relatively young age and just keep going for years after that. This would match up well with the achievements you have mentioned.
Click to expand...
They don’t repeatedly disappear in the big games or finals. One in two when it matters isn’t great, it’s average.
 
Poo Eckert said:
They don’t repeatedly disappear in the big games or finals. One in two when it matters isn’t great, it’s average.
Click to expand...

Yep. They're proven as great home and away footballers but yet to prove they can do it on the big stage.
 
Duck Farmer said:
Three hours of boredom replicates the Port home final match day experience pretty well.
Click to expand...

I know what will break you out of your boredom..........

loud-noises.gif


simpsons-movies.gif


Ports sucking in a home finals again you say.

4oh78q.jpg
 
RUCK 2023 TL:DR

I wanted to go through the ruck situation and posit that it was a black hole of a position for us this year. I don't think this will be news to everyone but I am happy to give it a bit of analysis. It was untalented, old, too young, injured, out of form, not clicking with the midfield. Just not the best.

Also, if there are some mistakes, post them and I will edit them in. I don't remember everything from the year. If you want to call the ruck duels, be my guest.

First off, we actually have to go before the season and see that our team traded out our obvious 2nd ruck in Peter 'laddie' Ladhams. What this means is that we didn't have a 2nd ruck to go and if Lycett got injured or showed poor form, which was the case, it would be very detrimental to the team as ruck is an important part of the ground. Given the wash up of the dog's breakfast of a season in ruck, this decision doesn't seem the best at all.

Lets have a look at the ruck options that went before us at 2023.

Scott Lycett - old, injured, out of form, unathletic, not clicking with the young midfield
Sam Hayes - hated by the coaches, can 't get around the park supposedly
Brynn Teakle - untalented and delisted. The less I say the better.
Dante Visentini - super young and not readyish

So we went into the year with very, very poor ruck stocks. Our first ruck is old and injured and we traded out our 2nd ruck. WTF?

I am going to use the Player Rating from Champion Data to try and get an understanding of the ruck situation. It is not perfect but just a very good guide.

There were 45 rucks listed by Champion Data. This is the Player Rating Average. Just a reminder that there are only 18 teams in the AFL.

Scott Lycett - 29 of 45
Sam Hayes - 39 of 45
Brynn Teakle - 40 of 45
Dante Visentini - 41 of 45

Not the best. You would hope our Number 1 rucking option would be in the Top 18. Just saying.

Minor Round.

The first 5 games are played by Lycett and seems to be on the decline with injuries already. Not the best.

Round 1 - Brisbane - Lycett 9.8 versus McInerney 12.6. We beat the Lions quite convincingly but McInerney shades Lycett. At best, you would call that even. At worst, McInerney gets him.

Round 2 - Collingwood - Lycett 5.4 versus Cameron 13.5. Collingwood and the umpires kill us. Cameron kills Lycett but the entire team was killed on that day.

Round 3 - Adelaide - Lycett 8.2 versus O'Reilly 17.4. The Crows kills us and O'Reilly beats Lycett with ease.

Round 4 - Sydney - Lycett 6.9 versus Ladhams 17.7. We just get over the line against the Swans. Butters starts his big minutes in the midfield. Lycett is beaten well in the ruck against their 2nd ruck which use to be our 2nd ruck. A bit embarrassing.

Round 5 - Western Bulldogs - Lycett 1.1 versus English 19.4. Lycett gets handsomely beaten by the 2023 AA ruck. IIRC, I think he is injured during the game.

The first five games by Lycett is that he gets beaten most games and he has problems with injuries. A red flag considering the season has just started.

From Round 6 to 9, out of nowhere, Brynn Teakle is picked over Sam Hayes. It is a disaster of epic proportions.

Round 6 - West Coast - Brynn Teakle 7.2 versus Bailey J Williams 17.5. We win the game easily but Teakle is chronically beaten by the young ruck.

Round 7 - St Kilda - Brynn Teakle 7 versus Rowan Marshall 22.3. Teakle is taken out back and beaten like a slave by one of the better rucks in the comp.

Round 8 - Essendon - Brynn Teakle 1.3 versus Sam Draper 17.6. Teakle is beaten to a pulp and Finalyson has to ruck for the majority of the game.

Round 9 - North Melbourne - Brynn Teakle 7.1 versus Todd Goldstein 22.3. Old rolled Gold beats Teakle to a bloody mess.

During this 4 game stretch, Teakle is well beaten in every game. Maybe not the best decision to play the WAFL offcast.

Lycett has now recovered from his injuries and play from Round 10 to Round 15 which is the game before the bye.

Round 10 - Melbourne - Scott Lycett 11.5 versus Brodie Grundy 12.8. Lycett breaks even and does alright. This is the time when playing Gawn and Grundy playing together is starting to be a problem for the Demons.

Round 11 - Richmond - Scott Lycett 12.3 versus Toby Nankervis 11.8. Lycett breaks even with Nankervis. Lycett has a bit of form under his belt. Yay.

Round 12 - Hawthorn - Scott Lycett 13.1 versus Ned Reeves 12.7. You would say that Lycett beats Reeves as he basically plays a half a young 1st ruck. Happyish days. Lycett is rested for the 2nd half of the game. Fans are angry as they want a percentage booster but I thought it was a really good sign that the team was thinking of the future.

Round 13 - Western Bulldogs - Scott Lycett 13.1 versus Tim English 13.6. In the return bout, Lycett does well and break even against the best ruck in the comp. Another tick.

Round 14 - Geelong - Scott Lycett 14 versus Mark Blicavs 6.4. For the first time, Lycett beats his opponent for the year. Going into the break there is some hope.

From Round 10 to Round 14 Lycett plays well enough and either breaks even with his opponent or beats them outright a couple of times. Heading into the bye with more rest, Lycett should come out firing for the rest of the year. Given our midfield is young and awesome, things are looking up.

But it is not meant to be, Lycett misses the next two games. Huge red flags.

Round 16 - Dante Visentini 1.1 versus Andrew Phillips 13.6. Lycett is a late withdrawal from the game and Visentini runs from the stands, his parents get in the car, boot studders are up and about. Dante only plays a small amount of gametime and Finlayson does most of the centre ruck work. Given the circumstances, Dante's first game is forgivable.

Round 17 - Gold Coast - Sam Hayes 8.8 versus Jarrod Witts 13.6. Hayes gets his first game since a long time and plays not bad against the hulking juggernaut of Witts.

Lycett is back for two more games and then is out for the rest of the minor round.

Round 18 - Carlton - Scott Lycett 12 versus Tom de Koning 13.6. Lycett comes back from injury and Carlton beat us and Lycett seems to break even.

Round 19 - Collingwood - Scott Lycett 4 versus Darcy Cameron 16.7. Cameron beats him quite well.

Round 20 - Adelaide - Dante Visentini 4.5 versus Reilly O'Brien 13.7. Dante plays OK but the Crows kills us and O'Brien beats him.

Round 21 - Geelong - Dante Visentini 11.8 versus Rhys Stanley 11.2. Dante gives glimpses of a real ruck for the future but it is against the 2nd Ruck of Stanley.

Round 22 - GWS - Sam Hayes 8.3 versus Kieran Briggs 19.7. Hayes comes in and gets beaten but I remember the game overall and Hayes was OK and seemed to break even against the premier young ruck who loves to get midfield type numbers.

Round 23 - Fremantle - Sam Hayes 8.9 versus Luke Jackson 18.1. Soundly beaten by one of the best and overall talented rucks in the league. I thought his tap work was pretty good though.

Round 24 - Richmond - Sam Hayes -1.9 versus Toby Nankervis 11.8. A poor showing by Hayes leading into finals. Can't remember if he was injured this game.

Finals

Scott Lycett returns from injury and plays a pretty decent game and a poor game but the way I remember both finals and his overall play is that he never really clicks with the young midfield.

Qualifying Final - Brisbane - Scott Lycett 12.5 versus Oscar McInerney 10.8. Champion Data gives this win to Lycett but we get smashed all over the park. He plays well enough but never really seems to gel with the young midfield.

Semi-Final - Giants - Scott Lycett 1.3 versus Kieran Briggs 13.7. Briggs dominates the first half and Lycett is injured during the game.

In Conclusion

Lycett was a very poor 1st ruck for us this year.
Our backup rucks were poor.
Our secondary rucks of Dixon and Finlayson had real problems as well.
We traded away our 2nd ruck.
The decision to go with Teakle after Lycett was injured was a joke.
Dante was way too young but at least the boy has some fire.
Hayes is probably gone. Can we put it down to irreconciliable differences.

The ruck situation this year was a black hole and this is really poor management from the coaching and list management staff considering we have one of the best and young midfields in the competition. We really need a young ruck who can complement Rozee, Butters and Horne-Francis for the future.

Our rucks were so poor this year for a myriad of reasons that even a ruck that can break even would be a severe upgrade on what we rolled out this year. We are looking at Jordon Sweet and I get the feeling he is more of the Brendon Lade type of tap ruck which I think will fit in really well with the young midfield. People want him to be able to mark and I don't know if he's the second coming of Corey McKernan in that way but if he taps well, it will give the young midfield huge leaps of confidence in the centre square. He is the right age profile and hopefully has learnt a lot being under Tim English. He has connections to Josh Carr and more importantly, Connor Rozee and should be chomping at the bit to play senior football. Looking at his stats, he seems to be able to bob up and kick a goal as well. He could really catapult an already good midfield into the stratosphere.

Also, our secondary rucks of Charlie Dixon and Jeremy Finlayson was struck with problems as well. Dixon is an excellent 2nd ruck in game but was injured for most of the year like Lycett which really impeded his impact on games. When he is thrown into the ruck late in games, he can really impact the contest and team strongly. Finalyson seemed to be found out and didn't jump and then opposition rucks knew and adjusted accordingly. So our secondary rucks in games wasn't the best either this year.

If Dante is good to go, he could be our 2nd ruck and then I would ditch Lycett and Hayes and draft two rucks. Given the draft is rife with excellent ruck talent this year, I would pluck out two like Goad and Vigo but dependent on draft picks, we could get a cracker.

So for next year, I hope we get some serious sweet light into the black hole that was our ruck situation this year.
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Autopsy To our fraud midfield

Similar threads

Shaucob_Burjan
Opinion The current midfield group: Too small too skinny
Replies
12
Views
758
JUSTWORK
J
Coobk001
Autopsy Swans end our 2024 season
26 27 28 29 30
Replies
726
Views
28K
GremioPower
GremioPower
shewho
Our Season Starts Now
Replies
10
Views
501
EskimoPAFC
EskimoPAFC
Enviable Tradition
Our Leaky Board
2 3 4
Replies
78
Views
4K
1954
1954
Enviable Tradition
Coach Our next senior assistant
2 3
Replies
50
Views
2K
just_kick_it
just_kick_it
elbarton
Coach Our next mistake
Replies
20
Views
2K
VineValerian
VineValerian
Enviable Tradition
Opinion Midfield depth
2
Replies
29
Views
2K
240volt
240volt

Remove this Banner Ad

Back
Top