Tobacco Tax - who does it really hurt?

[Seeds]

You can not tax away addiction.

You can glean a lot of tax money playing on addition, but you can not help the addicted by taxing them.

Addicts do not care about price.

Sane ideas like price never occur to an addict.

You can not tax or price an addict away from that which he or she loves more than her or his own human existence.

There is no way to do that.

You have to treat addicts, it is a health problem, not a criminal or tax problem. you have to send addicts give them a place to go, show them a way to stop, they have to go some kind of rehab.

And you know what?

Even that is not going to solve the problem. Because addicts are addicts, and for some there is no redemption song.

But it will save some lives and a lot of society money in the long run.

The tax has never been about the small portion of smokers who you describe above. Its about the other 95 percent of smokers. The addicts who aren't insanely addicted and are able to be economically motivated to quit, the social smokers and the potential future smokers. The tax is about breaking the smoking cycle. Not about those who are already lost to the cause.

 

[Puddy]

The tax has never been about the small portion of smokers who you describe above. Its about the other 95 percent of smokers. The addicts who aren't insanely addicted and are able to be economically motivated to quit, the cultural smokers and the potential future smokers. The tax is about breaking the smoking cycle. Not about those who are already lost to the cause.

This tax is about raising revenue from the people who can least afford it. Instead of going after huge corps not paying their fair share of tax, the government decides to literally take from the needy. Any worker class support will die for this government if they want this policy.

We need less tax, smaller governments, not huge taxes, the poor getting poorer and the rich getting richer

 

[Seeds]

They are well and truly doing that as well as trying to plug the budget. Sorry, they keep increasing the excise so they can spend more!

You obviously don't understand how big the future pool of smokers could be if we keep smoking a part of our culture for the next 10, 100, 1000 years. A tax of 10000 dollars per pack would not be too high to provide a net benefit to society.

 

[Puddy]

You obviously don't understand how big the future pool of smokers could be if we keep smoking apart our culture for the next 10, 100, 1000 years. A tax of 10000 dollars per pack would not be too high to provide a net benefit to society.

What, making children go hungry? Taking from the poor? Socially engineering people?. The adverse effects of taxing tobacco doesnt only hurt smokers, it hurts their families. What about people who smoke pipe tobacco or cigars. Paying $60 for a $15 cigar just because we live in a revenue hungry country?

Whats next, making Australia a dry zone by banning alcohol?

The only way is to HELP people with free gum and patches, not HURT them by taking away their living conditions with high taxes. It is wrong to profit from others problems

 

[LiZ4RD]

https://www.health.gov.au/internet/...3/$File/Screen res-Smoking&Disad_ev brief.pdf

Page 5 shows who is impacted. The rest is worth a read.

 

[Puddy]

The black market nobody outside the tobacco industry thinks is a big deal?

Do you know how easy it is to get chop? Its a huge business. All these big government types love all this huge taxing and taking from the poor but ignore the reality of black market tobacco, which has exploded

 

[CM86]

Do you know how easy it is to get chop? Its a huge business. All these big government types love all this huge taxing and taking from the poor but ignore the reality of black market tobacco, which has exploded

Where do you get this info from?

You know is the British American Tobacco Australia that have been pushing that line, yeah?

Not that they would have an agenda or anything...

 

[Puddy]

Where do you get this info from?

You know is the British American Tobacco Australia that have been pushing that line, yeah?

Not that they would have an agenda or anything...

Because im a worker who is out there with normal people, alot who smoke as one of their few pleasures. Black market tobacco is out there and easily obtained, you would have to be very naive to think its just propoganda

 

[CM86]

Because im a worker who is out there with normal people, alot who smoke as one of their few pleasures. Black market tobacco is out there and easily obtained, you would have to be very naive to think its just propoganda

Oh shit... you're a worker?
Say no more, sir!


Again, you're arguing your anecdotal evidence vs actual evidence...

How many people have you talked to, who have stated that they have increased their purchases, or started their purchases of tobacco, from the black market?

How did it compare to when you asked people 5 years ago?


Do you even understand the difference between statistics and casual observation??

 

[CM86]

And make it smoke friendly so we can enjoy cigars

A good cigar (doesnt have to be Cuban) and a glass of VSOP cognac is better than sex imo

Neat, with a Montecristo cigar

Are you sure you're as in touch as you think you are?...

My dream would be to open a cigar shop!

 

[sherb]

It's a logical outcome that if you price something to the hilt, a black market will develop.

I haven't smoked for years, but I don't think I would have much trouble finding "under the counter" tobacco if I wanted to around where I live.

And if this is the best the government has got in terms of "tax reform", then just lololol.........

 

[Puddy]

Are you sure you're as in touch as you think you are?...

Got a bottle of the vsop for a present 2 years ago, i usually drink sherry, $11 for a 2 litre bottle. I love a cigar and after i pay all my bills i can have 3 maybe 4 cigars a year as my 3 monthly treat. How is that out of touch after working 6-7 days a week?

 

[CM86]

Got a bottle of the vsop for a present 2 years ago, i usually drink sherry, $11 for a 2 litre bottle. I love a cigar and after i pay all my bills i can have 3 maybe 4 cigars a year as my 3 monthly treat. How is that out of touch after working 6-7 days a week?

Yeah, it's a common conversation poor people have. Preferred cigars and pairings with alc.

What about your dream of owning a tobacco store?
I suppose that has nothing to do with your bias either?


Read this.
http://www.aihw.gov.au/alcohol-and-other-drugs/ndshs-2013/ch3/#t3_1

It isn't about the sale of 'legal' tobacco... it's the people smoking tobacco, be it manufactured and/or roll-your-own) or the equivalent amount of tobacco ( i.e. black market).


Do these facts, change your view at all, that maybe you're just seeing what you want to see?

 

[Puddy]

Yeah, it's a common conversation poor people have. Preferred cigars and pairings with alc.

What about your dream of owning a tobacco store?
I suppose that has nothing to do with your bias either?


Read this.
http://www.aihw.gov.au/alcohol-and-other-drugs/ndshs-2013/ch3/#t3_1

It isn't about the sale of 'legal' tobacco... it's the people smoking tobacco, be it manufactured and/or roll-your-own) or the equivalent amount of tobacco ( i.e. black market).


Do these facts, change your view at all, that maybe you're just seeing what you want to see?

Id love a cigar shop but id go broke, i hate cigarettes. You dont have to be a government suit to enjoy nice things as a worker, you just have to sacrifice having a life to work every day.

Go to some of the poorer areas and look at the children who are going to go hungry because their parents will be buying legit cigarettes. I can only look at the people im around eg workers and normal people, to know that 1 in 5 smoke, I know quite a few people who even started after plain packaging and use cigarettes as stress relief

 

[CM86]

Id love a cigar shop but id go broke, i hate cigarettes. You dont have to be a government suit to enjoy nice things as a worker, you just have to sacrifice having a life to work every day.

Go to some of the poorer areas and look at the children who are going to go hungry because their parents will be buying legit cigarettes. I can only look at the people im around eg workers and normal people, to know that 1 in 5 smoke, I know quite a few people who even started after plain packaging and use cigarettes as stress relief

How many people have you talked to, who have stated that they have increased their purchases, or started their purchases of tobacco, from the black market?

How did it compare to when you asked people 5 years ago?

Where did you look and find this information?


Why do you have the impression that no one but you interacts with working class???

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Class issue. Tobacco is often used for stress relief. The working class is more likely to smoke tobacco, its something to look forward to at the end of the day. The rich suits go to their holiday homes

Yep. At the end of each work day they all go to their holiday homes in Queensland.

 

[Puddy]

Where did you look and find this information?


Why do you have the impression that no one but you interacts with working class???

Before the tax hit i didnt even know about illegal tobacco but with growing taxes its becoming more common and very easy to obtain. Why isnt anyone bringing up free patches and gum? Its an obvious solution. Stop hurting people and start helping them

 

[CM86]

Before the tax hit i didnt even know about illegal tobacco but with growing taxes its becoming more common and very easy to obtain. Why isnt anyone bringing up free patches and gum? Its an obvious solution. Stop hurting people and start helping them

Except that stats say the opposite... that it is decreasing...

Only a minority of smokers currently smoke unbranded tobacco and the proportion has decreased since 2007 (from 6.1% to 3.6% in 2013)
​

http://www.aihw.gov.au/alcohol-and-other-drugs/ndshs-2013/ch3/#t3_1


How many people have you talked to, who have stated that they have increased their purchases, or started their purchases of tobacco, from the black market?

How did it compare to when you asked people 5 years ago?

 

[katana]

I would rather see the age at which you can buy cigarettes go up each year - ie you can buy cigarettes if you are 18 this year, but next year you will have to be 19 etc.

except that i was buying cigarettes at 14. do you guys ever leave your houses?

 

[theyellowsash]

I imagine that it's a lot cheaper for the community for a blue collar worker to die at 70 after 6 months of lung cancer than for him to die at 95 after 30 years on a pension, subsidised medical care and 10 years in a nursing home etc.

would rather them live healthily on a pension than spend 6+ months (most likely a lot longer in reality, cancer is not a quick thing) clogging up the hospitals and getting in the way of people who need treatment for diseases or injuries that they didnt cause themselves.

if people who gave themselves lung cancer by smoking were excluded from the public health system, then maybe i would agree with you.

 

[Puddy]

would rather them live healthily on a pension than spend 6+ months (most likely a lot longer in reality, cancer is not a quick thing) clogging up the hospitals and getting in the way of people who need treatment for diseases or injuries that they didnt cause themselves.

if people who gave themselves lung cancer by smoking were excluded from the public health system, then maybe i would agree with you.

What about academics who get dementia because they lived longer then workers. We shouldnt pay for their care because they have sitting down jobs?

We should lower tobacco tax, stop hurting the people who cant afford it, make it affordable for them to quit (free gum and patches) and heavily tax the rich

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

What about academics who get dementia because they lived longer then workers. We shouldnt pay for their care because they have sitting down jobs?

We should lower tobacco tax, stop hurting the people who cant afford it, make it affordable for them to quit (free gum and patches) and heavily tax the rich

Why tax the rich? What have they got to do with it? You're saying the rich should be taxed because the poor keep making stupid decisions.

 

[CM86]

What about academics who get dementia because they lived longer then workers. We shouldnt pay for their care because they have sitting down jobs?

What...the...****...?

 

[Puddy]

What...the...****...?

The longer you live, the more likely you are to develop dementia. Academics and others with sit down jobs generally live longer then people with actual physical working jobs which is why many dementia sufferers were not laborers

 

[theyellowsash]

What about academics who get dementia because they lived longer then workers. We shouldnt pay for their care because they have sitting down jobs?

We should lower tobacco tax, stop hurting the people who cant afford it, make it affordable for them to quit (free gum and patches) and heavily tax the rich

I'm all for taxing the rich more than we currently do, but not just because people make dumb decisions and get themselves addicted to things that will kill them.

Also i'm all for making gums and other quitting options cheaper. We can even use the tobacco taxes to fund it. But then lowering the price of cigarettes making them more easily accessible for people to become addicted to is entirely counter productive. We should be subsidizing quitting options while also heavily taxing cigarettes so that they are prohibitively expensive to get addicted to in the first place. If people still choose to buy an expensive luxury well then thats their own problem.

your first point makes no reasonable sense.