Tobacco Tax - who does it really hurt?

[Puddy]

I'm all for taxing the rich more than we currently do, but not just because people make dumb decisions and get themselves addicted to things that will kill them.

Also i'm all for making gums and other quitting options cheaper. We can even use the tobacco taxes to fund it. But then lowering the price of cigarettes making them more easily accessible for people to become addicted to is entirely counter productive. We should be subsidizing quitting options while also heavily taxing cigarettes so that they are prohibitively expensive to get addicted to in the first place. If people still choose to buy an expensive luxury well then thats their own problem.

your first point makes no reasonable sense.

What about the other people it hurts? If your parents decide buying legit cigarettes is more important than feeding you? How is that fair? We are putting already disadvanted people in a worse position. What about the pensioner who has no other vice apart from cigarettes? You need to understand the human psyche, there are people who live to smoke, if you take it away you will devastate them

 

[CM86]

What about the other people it hurts? If your parents decide buying legit cigarettes is more important than feeding you? How is that fair? We are putting already disadvanted people in a worse position. What about the pensioner who has no other vice apart from cigarettes? You need to understand the human psyche, there are people who live to smoke, if you take it away you will devastate them

What you should be fighting against... is a rise in gst...

Not screaming about cigs. Especially as the the evidence goes against you as well...

 

[Puddy]

What you should be fighting against... is a rise in gst...

Not screaming about cigs. Especially as the the evidence goes against you as well...

I was against a rise in the gst. We need lower government spending. The average South Australian wage is 39k a yer. Every public servant bar cops, nurses and ambos should be capped at that and no pensions for politicians is a start, not attacking the poor and working class.

What about the disadvantaged children that will be hurt by this tax?

 

[CM86]

I was against a rise in the gst. We need lower government spending. The average South Australian wage is 39k a yer. Every public servant bar cops, nurses and ambos should be capped at that and no pensions for politicians is a start, not attacking the poor and working class.

What about the disadvantaged children that will be hurt by this tax?

South Australia's average wage is $69,800
https://www.livingin-australia.com/salaries-australia/

Where are you getting any of your stuff from???...



And you were against a rise?... You support it now?

The GST is something that actually does what you're complaining about...

 

[CM86]

Puddy Why are you ignoring all of the facts and evidence?
Are you trolling?


Doesn't matter how much evidence is given to you... you ignore it and continue to repeat bs...
And you proceed to make assumptions based on these inaccuracies..

 

[Puddy]

South Australia's average wage is $69,800
https://www.livingin-australia.com/salaries-australia/

Where are you getting any of your stuff from???...



And you were against a rise?... You support it now?

The GST is something that actually does what you're complaining about...

Those are full time working wages. Good luck finding someone in SA who is working full time

 

[CM86]

Those are full time working wages. Good luck finding someone in SA who is working full time

Just found one. **** that was easy...


You said... the average SA wage... not the average part time wage...

You then went on to say that all Gov employees should be paid at that wage...


So, you're complaining about the tax on ciggs... but you want all full time gov employees to be paid a part time wage for a full time job?

 

[theyellowsash]

What about the other people it hurts? If your parents decide buying legit cigarettes is more important than feeding you? How is that fair? We are putting already disadvanted people in a worse position. What about the pensioner who has no other vice apart from cigarettes? You need to understand the human psyche, there are people who live to smoke, if you take it away you will devastate them

what if i decide that buying a new car is more important than buying food, should we lobby the gov to lower the price of cars? What if i want to go to the footy instead of paying rent? what if i want to eat out every night instead of making my own food? This is just a lame excuse. Food for example is very very cheap, so i dont have any 'cost of living' sympathy for people who spend hundreds a week on booze and **** and then cant afford $50 for food. Thats exactly why i agree we should subsidize people to break these habits. And if they continue to waste money on stuff despite society's offer of help then bad luck if they cant afford other things.

I also want a food-stamp type of system implemented for welfare recipients which would ensure a certain portion of centrelink money goes towards food, which would help with that problem. As a taxpayer (who has never received a single payment from the government in any form) i fully support our generous welfare system, but i dont have any sympathy for people who waste it on gambling, pokies, booze etc.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Those are full time working wages. Good luck finding someone in SA who is working full time

Yeah, they're just so hard to find. I don't think I've met someone who works full time in months.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

The average South Australian wage is 39k a yer. Every public servant bar cops, nurses and ambos should be capped at that

As a taxpayer (who has never received a single payment from the government in any form)

Should rename this Puddy & Co's Big Thread of Bullshit.

 

[theyellowsash]

Should rename this Puddy & Co's Big Thread of Bullshit.

why is it so hard to believe ive never had a centrelink payment? i lived at home while studying and then got a full time job when i moved out. its not that uncommon.

 

[theyellowsash]

well, this thread had a good run. 4 pages of reasonably civil debate until a troll came in is pretty good.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

why is it so hard to believe ive never had a centrelink payment? i lived at home while studying and then got a full time job when i moved out. its not that uncommon.

You didn't say Centrelink. You said "payment from the government in any form".

 

[Puddy]

I also want a food-stamp type of system implemented for welfare recipients which would ensure a certain portion of centrelink money goes towards food, which would help with that problem. As a taxpayer (who has never received a single payment from the government in any form) i fully support our generous welfare system, but i dont have any sympathy for people who waste it on gambling, pokies, booze etc.

You would get people selling $100 worth of food stamps for a pack of smokes. Smoking is something that will never go away, much like drugs and alcohol. Unfortunatly there are alot of people who think penalising the poor and working class is the right way to go about it instead of subsidising patches and gum.

If people cant smoke for stress relief, what are they going to do?

 

[CM86]

You would get people selling $100 worth of food stamps for a pack of smokes. Smoking is something that will never go away, much like drugs and alcohol. Unfortunatly there are alot of people who think penalising the poor and working class is the right way to go about it instead of subsidising patches and gum.

If people cant smoke for stress relief, what are they going to do?

You're ridiculous.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

You would get people selling $100 worth of food stamps for a pack of smokes. Smoking is something that will never go away, much like drugs and alcohol. Unfortunatly there are alot of people who think penalising the poor and working class is the right way to go about it instead of subsidising patches and gum.

If people cant smoke for stress relief, what are they going to do?

Current data suggests otherwise. Smoking numbers have consistently dropped every decade.

The percentage of male smokers has dropped from:

72% in 1945
58% in 1964
41% in 1980
29% in 1992
21% in 2007
17% in 2013

Female smokes have consistently dropped from a peak of 33% in the 70s to just 13% at present. Saying it will never go away is just stupid.

 

[Seeds]

This tax is about raising revenue from the people who can least afford it. Instead of going after huge corps not paying their fair share of tax, the government decides to literally take from the needy. Any worker class support will die for this government if they want this policy.

We need less tax, smaller governments, not huge taxes, the poor getting poorer and the rich getting richer

Corporations are figments of the imagination. We should only tax people as it's ultimately people who pay the corporation taxes anyway. If you taxed the smoking corps they would simply pass on that tax to their customers as they have to maintain a certain rate of profit to remain viable so it would be no different to directly taxing their customers anyway.

 

[Seeds]

What, making children go hungry? Taking from the poor? Socially engineering people?. The adverse effects of taxing tobacco doesnt only hurt smokers, it hurts their families. What about people who smoke pipe tobacco or cigars. Paying $60 for a $15 cigar just because we live in a revenue hungry country?

Whats next, making Australia a dry zone by banning alcohol?

The only way is to HELP people with free gum and patches, not HURT them by taking away their living conditions with high taxes. It is wrong to profit from others problems

It's not profiting. It's getting the smokers to pay for the full costs to society of their habit. I do believe some exemptions for the helplessly addicted could be made as information about the costs of smoking wasn't available when they took up the habit but all other smokers should be forced to pay for the full extent of what it costs as we ask everyone else to do when they purchase every product on the planet. Cigarettes are no different to any other product. They have costs and they should be paid for by those who want them. That is the free market.

 

[Seeds]

Do you know how easy it is to get chop? Its a huge business. All these big government types love all this huge taxing and taking from the poor but ignore the reality of black market tobacco, which has exploded

You really think governments take from the poor??? Do you not know how the tax system works? The poor are net receivers of tax income and high income earners are net tax payers. Yes some very rich people fraud the system and they should be in jail but for the majority the whole system we live in is solely paid by the middle and high income earners. The poor pay nothing for the roads, public schools, hospitals, police and other infrastructure the government provides and many also get some welfare on top to contribute towards housing and food.

 

[Lebbo73]

You're ridiculous.

Says the muppet who thinks he is an expert on every subject.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...s/news-story/76264fc955f613756ea58ca1c07dd2b8

"THE BILLION dollar illicit tobacco black market has hit a record high as Australian smokers baulk at the price of legal cigarettes.

Criminals are exploiting the high price of legal smokes to make massive profits by smuggling in cheap tobacco from overseas.

Last year 14.5 per cent of all tobacco consumed was illegal, according to a new report.

The Illicit Tobacco in Australia 2014 report states nearly 2.6 million kilograms of illegal tobacco was consumed last year alone with the tobacco black market rocketing by 30 per cent since 2013.

The report by KPMG, commissioned by the world’s biggest tobacco companies, concludes the black market costs the Federal Government $1.35 billion in lost taxes.

The black market boomed during a period when the government increased tobacco excise by 25 per cent."

 

[CM86]

Says the muppet who thinks he is an expert on every subject.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...s/news-story/76264fc955f613756ea58ca1c07dd2b8

"THE BILLION dollar illicit tobacco black market has hit a record high as Australian smokers baulk at the price of legal cigarettes.

Criminals are exploiting the high price of legal smokes to make massive profits by smuggling in cheap tobacco from overseas.

Last year 14.5 per cent of all tobacco consumed was illegal, according to a new report.

The Illicit Tobacco in Australia 2014 report states nearly 2.6 million kilograms of illegal tobacco was consumed last year alone with the tobacco black market rocketing by 30 per cent since 2013.

The report by KPMG, commissioned by the world’s biggest tobacco companies, concludes the black market costs the Federal Government $1.35 billion in lost taxes.

The black market boomed during a period when the government increased tobacco excise by 25 per cent."

This has already been covered in this thread...

Ffs lebbo...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-...-cheap-cigarettes-battle-black-market/6477278

British American Tobacco Australia (BATA) said it commissioned research which found 14.5 per cent of tobacco consumed in Australia was illegal.

BATA is considering introducing make-your-owns, at $9 for a pack of 25 cigarettes, to curb the trend.

But Dr Becky Freeman from the University of Sydney said government surveys showed illegal tobacco use fell between 2007 and 2013, and has accused the tobacco industry of distorting figures.

"It's clear that the use of illicit tobacco has actually decreased," she said.

Dr Freeman said 3.6 per cent of smokers admitted to using illicit tobacco.

​

Which is backed by
http://www.aihw.gov.au/alcohol-and-other-drugs/ndshs-2013/ch3/

Key findings

• Daily smoking among the general population declined between 2010 and 2013 and has almost halved since 1991 (from 24.3% in 1991 down to 12.8% in 2013).
• People in their late-20s or in their 40s were most likely to smoke daily.
• People under 50 were far less likely to smoke daily than they were 12 years ago; however, over the same period, there has been little change in the daily smoking rate among people aged 50 or older.
• The average age at which young people aged 14–24 smoked their first cigarette has steadily rose since 2001, indicating a delay in uptake of smoking.
• Smokers smoked fewer cigarettes per week in 2013 (96) compared to 2010 (111).
• Dependent children were far less likely to be exposed to tobacco smoke inside the home in 2013 (3.7%) compared to 1995 (31%).
• Only a minority of smokers currently smoke unbranded tobacco and the proportion has decreased since 2007 (from 6.1% to 3.6% in 2013).
• The majority of smokers attempted to make a change to their smoking behaviour in the last year.
• Smokers trying to quit or change their smoking behaviour tried mainly due to costs and concern for their health.
• Across all adult age groups, about 1 in 2 smokers purchased their products from supermarkets. Older people were more likely to purchase their tobacco products from a tobacconist and younger adults were more likely to purchase from a petrol station.

... lebbotomy...

 

[CM86]

And for the record, lebbotomy, I don't think I'm an expert on anything and I don't think I'm that intelligent. I think I know just enough to get by, and I'm able to use the Internet.

But, having said that, Lebbo73 ... I ****ing dwarf you in all aspects of everything...

 

[Grin]

would rather them live healthily on a pension than spend 6+ months (most likely a lot longer in reality, cancer is not a quick thing) clogging up the hospitals and getting in the way of people who need treatment for diseases or injuries that they didnt cause themselves.

if people who gave themselves lung cancer by smoking were excluded from the public health system, then maybe i would agree with you.

But that's my point.
People who die relatively young from lung cancer, which is generally a very aggressive disease, tend up clogging the health system far less that say, someone who has never smoked but has hypertension, diabetes, heart failure etc,etc,etc

We're all going to die of something sooner or later.

 

[Pie eyed]

Australia has extreme tobacco tax but no one has quit smoking. Talk to any tobacconist and they will tell you all plain packaging and high taxes has done is either cause people to buy the cheapest brands or buy black market tobacco.

Taxes never work as a deterrent. For people who want to quit it is a real kick in the guts. The only way is for the government to subsidise patches and gum to give people a fair go, not tax them into oblivion.

When you go to poorer areas the people who actually buy legit tobacco are making other sacrifices, like not feeding themselves and their children. When we have suits who are completely out of touch with the common people and have no idea that they are literally taking from the most needy we know that we have a serious problem

I think your avatar is in conflict of interest with your thread.

 

[Pie eyed]

Why tax the rich? What have they got to do with it? You're saying the rich should be taxed because the poor keep making stupid decisions.

Many own or profit from the companies who sell the cigarettes, work for the law firms who protect them, run the business which sell cigarettes, profit from the advertising which either promotes or demonises them, in most cases both at the same time, and hold positions in the numerous Governments who have failed to ban them.

Just tax them anyway....they deserve it.