Tom Hawkins 350 games - What is his standing in the game?

[Lunchtime]

Score involvement data isn't available from before then.

I still think it's notable that 2012-2023 Hawkins had about an extra score involvement per game.

Riewoldt started a bit better but Hawkins has pulled away the last few years, so a 12 year stretch of data is still relevant IMO.

Absolutely it's still relevant. For me though, it's not enough in my opinion for me to think "Hawkins is better than Riewoldt and Kennedy". The margins are close....very close. Splitting hairs stuff.

 

[Lunchtime]

"By default" being in the best half a dozen full forwards in the game when you're 35 years old? After a broken back limited his athleticism greatly from a young age, no less.

Just like late career GAS padding his stats "by default" as an old guy who was still more than handy playing out of the square?

Lasting the distance of course puts you ahead when all other factors are pretty close. Hawkins was crucial in grand finals over a decade apart when the game was on the line. AA selections with a 11 season spread.

All are champions. There's not miles in it. But it's silly to dismiss arguments that could put one ahead of the other. Just like you said the Coleman medal difference was important. So is being better for longer.

I agree, but I reckon it's still very close as to who is better out of those 3. Can't split them.

Also, where did you find the stat for Score Involvements? I checked on the AFL Tables website and it has Goal Assists but nothing about Score Involvements. Can you put the link on here, I'd be keen to see the figures

 

[Mr Meow]

Absolutely it's still relevant. For me though, it's not enough in my opinion for me to think "Hawkins is better than Riewoldt and Kennedy". The margins are close....very close. Splitting hairs stuff.

If we looked at things from a statistical point of view:

-Total goals plus goal assists plus non-scoring shot score involvements (i.e removing behinds) would be the gold standard in assessing a forwards career output.

For careers 2006 onwards that puts Buddy as a clear 1, Hawkins as a clear 2 and Riewoldt a bit ahead of Kennedy.

Personally I think that's a fair ranking system but people are free to say large groups of players cannot be split if they wish.

 

[Lunchtime]

If we looked at things from a statistical point of view:

-Total goals plus goal assists plus non-scoring shot score involvements (i.e removing behinds) would be the gold standard in assessing a forwards career output.

For careers 2006 onwards that puts Buddy as a clear 1, Hawkins as a clear 2 and Riewoldt a bit ahead of Kennedy.

Personally I think that's a fair ranking system but people are free to say large groups of players cannot be split if they wish.

I just think at times, sitting on the fence is not a bad option and to me it seems a tad unfair to split Tom, Jack and Josh. I guess out of respect to them I'm sitting on the fence. Not that they would care what we talk about here on Bigfooty lol

 

[STPer18]

It's a topic Carboot feels very strongly about.

 

[Lunchtime]

If we looked at things from a statistical point of view:

-Total goals plus goal assists plus non-scoring shot score involvements (i.e removing behinds) would be the gold standard in assessing a forwards career output.

For careers 2006 onwards that puts Buddy as a clear 1, Hawkins as a clear 2 and Riewoldt a bit ahead of Kennedy.

Personally I think that's a fair ranking system but people are free to say large groups of players cannot be split if they wish.

It's like trying to split Brian Lara and Sachin Tendulkar. Not sure if you follow cricket but both are all time great batsman. Trying to split them is extremely difficult. Obviously cricket is another sport and not the right topic to be talking about on this thread but I guess when comparing really great players in any sport.....gee it gets difficult lol.

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

His CV stacks up with the best. He’s a champion and a terrific bloke.

 

[PhatBoy]

If you scour Tom Hawkins

26

Tom Hawkins

Age

36

Ht

197cm

Wt

105kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.2

3star

K

7.9

3star

HB

4.4

3star

M

5.5

5star

T

1.9

4star

G

2.1

5star

D

12.7

3star

K

8.6

3star

HB

4.1

3star

M

5.1

5star

T

2.1

3star

G

1.6

5star

D

7.8

2star

K

5.6

3star

HB

2.2

2star

M

4.2

4star

T

1.0

3star

G

2.2

5star

’ entire career and find the WORST block of 50 consecutive games, his worst win-loss run is 30 wins, 20 losses.

 

[Lunchtime]

I managed to put together Josh Kennedy's career stats as a comparison to Tom and Jack, have a look at screenshot. After all of that, I reckon I need a beer lol.

 

[Lingsface]

I don’t really care who is better, I wouldn’t trade him for any of the other possibilities his presence and contest is something you can build a successful side around. He is a champion of the game and another generation of Geelong legacy with his father being a champion of the club as well. Strong Smart and a real leader, also one of the nicest set shots to watch I’ve ever seen. Thanks Tom…. One more season please.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

It's a topic Carboot feels very strongly about.

He’s trying very hard to stay in character. It’s fun to watch.

 

[rapidfire7]

Used to have him well behind the likes of J Riewoldt and Kennedy and even players like Roughead and Walker. Those guys were just far more reliable goal kickers, and in my view, better and more ruthless competitors.

But the way Hawkins has grown as a player in his thirties as been nothing short of brilliant. I would now argue that he has passed all them with what he brings to the team as an all round player and leader. One of the smartest footy IQs in the game.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Overated for mine. Kicked more than 7 goals only once in 350 games , Lockett did that probably 50 times.
Was a good team player rather than a champion imo.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Used to have him well behind the likes of J Riewoldt and Kennedy and even players like Roughead and Walker. Those guys were just far more reliable goal kickers, and in my view, better and more ruthless competitors.

But the way Hawkins has grown as a player in his thirties as been nothing short of brilliant. I would now argue that he has passed all them with what he brings to the team as an all round player and leader. One of the smartest footy IQs in the game.

It's not smart to give away all those 50m penalties though. Also was known for jumper punching little guys for a number of years.
Also he was dishonest in claiming that goal in the GF that hit the post, and that's why they brought in score review.

 

[rapidfire7]

It's not smart to give away all those 50m penalties though. Also was known for jumper punching little guys for a number of years.
Also he was dishonest in claiming that goal in the GF that hit the post, and that's why they brought in score review.

Pretty certain the score review system came in quite a number of years after that incident in 2009, so it is a bit of a stretch to say they brought it in because of him.

And what was he meant of do anyway? Run up and tell the goal umpire that he actually hit the post after it had been awarded a goal? When in the history of the game has a player done anything like that?

He does have a bit of a temper and is prone to the odd undisciplined act yes, but I don't see how these things detract from his career.

 

[Andyy]

As someone who hates Geelong, he's a gun player and ageing well.

As a RFC fan I would compare him mostly to Riewoldt and J Kennedy. Jack obviously is much shorter and lighter in stature, whereas Kennedy is a similar size. Kennedy IMO is probably the best 'pure forward' but Jack & Hawk have probably had a much stronger impact on their team success in the goal assist aspect.

I would argue that Hawkins has played for a better team over his career then both of them and likely had better service from his midfield - he started in a premiership dynasty and has a much higher win % for his career at at 71% which would indicate his club has been better performed over a longer period of time. Jack and Kennedy have win % of approximately 51-53% each, so they have played for less successful teams over a prolonged period..

Riewoldt played 7 seasons before his club even made an EF and a full decade before premiership success. Richmond was downright garbage for the first half of his career but he still managed to flourish despite being significantly shorter and lighter.


Regardless we have been very fortunate to see all 3 play as 'hit up forwards' who lead well.

Franklin was a different sort of beast, also great to watch but played a very different forward game.

 

[PhatBoy]

It's not smart to give away all those 50m penalties though. Also was known for jumper punching little guys for a number of years.
Also he was dishonest in claiming that goal in the GF that hit the post, and that's why they brought in score review.

As opposed to, say, the Sharrod Wellingham poster two years later which, you know, was even more instrumental in bringing in the score review.

F**k me do they just pile all you idiots into the same complex until you all start to die of the same brain deterioration disease or something?

It started with Blaisee, then Smasha, Falcon got a HUUUUGE dose of whatever it was, now you??

You clearly have internet access. USE IT

 

[STPer18]

This was back in 2013

Hawkins' back issue a permanent problem, says Doc Larkins​

GEELONG forward Tom Hawkins

26

Tom Hawkins

Age

36

Ht

197cm

Wt

105kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.2

3star

K

7.9

3star

HB

4.4

3star

M

5.5

5star

T

1.9

4star

G

2.1

5star

D

12.7

3star

K

8.6

3star

HB

4.1

3star

M

5.1

5star

T

2.1

3star

G

1.6

5star

D

7.8

2star

K

5.6

3star

HB

2.2

2star

M

4.2

4star

T

1.0

3star

G

2.2

5star

should line up against the Sydney Swans on Saturday afternoon at Simonds Stadium after benefitting from a week of rest.

But the bulging disc issue he has been carrying this season is a permanent problem with the potential to deteriorate over time, leading sports medico Dr Peter Larkins says.

The 25-year-old has a bulging L4-L5 lumbar disc, which has been causing inflammation around the lower part of his spine.

It creates stiffness in the muscles around the area, and while he has been largely unimpeded during the week he has at times been affected on game day.

Larkins said it was wise to spare the big forward from last weekend's trip to Perth as the long flight would have aggravated the problem, but he expected Hawkins to be fine to face the Swans.

A disc is the jelly-like material that exists between vertebrae and acts like a shock absorber. A bulge can occur when doing things as simple as lifting, coughing or sneezing, or putting the back through an awkward extension.

Hawkins isn't experiencing nerve pain - it's the stiffness and inflammation of the disc and the joints next to it that is causing problems.

Larkins said once the disc pushes out it doesn't go back in, but it could shrink and pain could be eased if treated properly.

"When you squeeze the toothpaste tube and the toothpaste comes out, you can't then put it back in," he said.

"It can shrink down so the disc can ultimately become smaller and compress itself. A grape eventually becomes a raisin if you leave it in the sun for long enough.

"It can get worse but it hasn't. All that's happened is he continues to get bouts of the inflammation and the stiffness and sometimes he's played well this year and then the last few weeks it clearly hasn't settled from week to week.

"At his age, it's not great to have because it means he's always going have a weakness in his back as he gets older.

Crazy that he's gone on not just to play for over a decade since, but put together career best football in his twilight years to surpass his contemparies in Riewoldt and Kennedy.

 

[BennyGan]

I think he is in the same group as Jack Riewoldt and Josh Kennedy (no order). Franklin clearly is number 1, then these three I think are joint number 2. They can't be split.

Would go Tommy, JK then Jack but all 3 are hall of famers for sure

 

[BennyGan]

Alot of these assists were Joe the goose goals too. Could have bagged atleast 100 of those

yep, I think he enjoys giving off a goal more than kicking one. Always the first to get around the smalls when they kick one.

 

[The_Todd07]

yep, I think he enjoys giving off a goal more than kicking one. Always the first to get around the smalls when they kick one.

Just have to look at Jordan Clark's first goal for us.

Tom was through on goal with no opponent in sight and rather than kick the goal, he waited in the square for Jordan to run up for the handball

Tom had every right to kick it himself but preferred to let his young teammate have a special moment

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

I think it helps that his competition has retired/declined in the last few years. Still a great player though, but it makes getting AA's a bit easier when Buddy, Kennedy, Reiwoldt are no longer there.

So now an old man is competing with young key forwards in their prime. Not sure how this lessens his achievements at all.

 

[jakson68]

Don't like the bloke to be honest,
His eyes are too close together, so I don't trust him (may say more about me than him).

From all reports, he is a great guy, so I will take that over my uneducated opinion.

What I can say is that 350 games in and he is still going strong.
No matter what your bias is, he makes those around him and his team better and that is all you want from a player.

He could quite possibly be the most unselfish player I have seen (something a certain Melbourne player could learn from).

If he was in a Collingwood jumper, I would love him.

Well done Hawk, great career

 

[Cmarsh]

And an excellent 350th. Four goals and named among the bests.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

Watching some of the early highlights that have been doing the rounds, it was fun to be reminded of the time BT tried to invent a Pagans Paddock equivalent with “Hawkins Hectare”.
Still not the cringiest thing he’s ever said.