- Jul 13, 2015
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- 43,840
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120 inside 50s that year. Kicked 13 goals 7 behinds. Certainly far more damaging.
But the team was better then. Its hard to be brilliant in a terrible team. Only a handful of players fit that mould.
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Traded Tom Mitchell [traded to Hawthorn with pick 57 for pick 14 & 52]
- Thread starter Artax
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120 inside 50s that year. Kicked 13 goals 7 behinds. Certainly far more damaging.
But the team was better then. Its hard to be brilliant in a terrible team. Only a handful of players fit that mould.
SSSSSS
Brownlow Medallist
- Apr 18, 2011
- 22,272
- 51,571
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- Hawthorn
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- Six decades of domination
Lost a yard of pace (not that he had much to lose) since his injury. Used to have more power and enough toe to get through with much cleaner clearances, but without it has to rely on the first option instead. Hasn't lost the freakish endurance to run/scrap all day to find the hard ball. Still an elite ball-winner, and would be great for a side who he can feed the hard ball to.
2017/2018 we had speed and width from Smith in his prime + a very good Ricky Henderson on the wings with good ball-users in Burton/Sicily/Impey pushing up from half-back. 40 + possessions from Mitchell in a good side results in 40 opportunities for elite users to do damage forward of centre. 40+ possessions from Mitchell in a poor side with poor users (Howe/Phillips/Frost etc) results in what we are suffering through each week.
2017/2018 we had speed and width from Smith in his prime + a very good Ricky Henderson on the wings with good ball-users in Burton/Sicily/Impey pushing up from half-back. 40 + possessions from Mitchell in a good side results in 40 opportunities for elite users to do damage forward of centre. 40+ possessions from Mitchell in a poor side with poor users (Howe/Phillips/Frost etc) results in what we are suffering through each week.
2018: Mitchell: 149 score involvements out of 848 possessions - 17% of his possessions result in a score. Marginally better than 2021
Compared to others in 2018:
Dusty: 197/584 - 34%
Oliver: 184/734 - 25%
Danger: 174/619 - 28%
Coniglio 170/643 - 26%
He's really just not that damaging. Extraordinary accumulator, doesn't do much with it.
SSSSSS
Brownlow Medallist
- Apr 18, 2011
- 22,272
- 51,571
- AFL Club
- Hawthorn
- Other Teams
- Six decades of domination
He doesn't have to be damaging so long as he is enabling others to do the damage.
Is it a coincidence that Martin has his greatest season(s) after Prestia is traded in to do the dirty work? I see Mitchell having a similar level of impact in helping release the cream of an already established midfield.
- Apr 17, 2010
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I agree.
And at the absolute minimum, it's 40 odd less opportunities for your opponent to have the ball somewhere in the middle of the ground. (assuming you take Mitchell out and his opponent wins every contest against whoever you throw up instead)
It’s not score assists that I’m talking about, it’s scorin involvements
Scoring Involvements are defined as: "When a player is involved in an unbroken passage of play which leads to a score."
His possessions are about half as effective in terms of being part of a passage of play leading to a score
Your stat is useless unless you also normalise for total scores for the team the player is playing in. A low SI to possession ratio is not necessarily the fault of the mid if the forward line isn't doing its job. Of the 4 players you compared him to in 2018, 3 of them were from teams that were top 4 for average total points scored per game in 2018. Hawthorn was 8th. The other player you mentioned (cogs) was in the team that averaged the most behinds for the year, so I'd imagine that bumped up their total scoring shots relative to their total points scored.
Furthermore, at least two of the 4 players you mentioned actually spend quite a bit of time resting in the forward line. If the ball is already in the forward line when you get the disposal, then the chances that those possessions will end up in a score is much higher than someone getting it in the back half and moving it out of defence (which Mitchell did more often than any of the players you mentioned). The top 5 for score involvements in 2018 was Dusty, Franklin, Hawkins, Fyfe and Dangerfield. All of those are either forwards or mids that play significant time forward.
Basically your stats don't show what you think they show.
- May 5, 2006
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Are these available for anyone else? Like the top 10 from 2018?
Yep just grab score assists and total disposals from footywire and divide the latter by the former
Number37
Anyhow, have a Winfield 25.
- Oct 5, 2013
- 22,551
- 24,452
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- Sydney
Sorry https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2018&rt=LT&st=SI
Anyway here's all the players with more than 500 disposals in 2018 ranked by the percentage of disposals in an unbroken chain leading to a score. Note Jaegar O'Meara on 23% and Isaac Smith on 25% there.
Mitchell comes in at 432nd out of 551 players in the entire league in a good year for Hawthorn when they finished 4th. He's just not very damaging.
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A different way of looking at it, how often a player is involved in their teams scores (regardless of possessions). Mitchell is still well down the list, about 50th overall - but out of the #1 ball-winner in each team, he's in the top half-dozen.
I took the highest contested possession winning player from each club to try and pick the 'primary' onballer. Swapped out Grundy for Pendlebury (Pies #2), and Nankervis for Martin (Tigers #2)
I took the highest contested possession winning player from each club to try and pick the 'primary' onballer. Swapped out Grundy for Pendlebury (Pies #2), and Nankervis for Martin (Tigers #2)
| Name | Team | Score Involvements | SI % of Team |
| Kelly | Eagles | 77 | 33% |
| Fyfe | Dockers | 76 | 32% |
| Pendlebury | Magpies | 62 | 32% |
| Oliver | Demons | 79 | 31% |
| Parish | Bombers | 75 | 31% |
| Mitchell | Hawks | 56 | 30% |
| Laird | Crows | 63 | 28% |
| Cunnington | Kangaroos | 49 | 28% |
| Steele | Saints | 54 | 27% |
| Hopper | Giants | 62 | 27% |
| Cripps | Blues | 64 | 27% |
| Martin | Tigers | 61 | 27% |
| Liberatore | Bulldogs | 74 | 26% |
| Selwood | Cats | 61 | 26% |
| Lyons | Lions | 62 | 25% |
| Parker | Swans | 56 | 24% |
| Wines | Power | 54 | 24% |
| Greenwood | Suns | 39 | 19% |
Number37
Anyhow, have a Winfield 25.
- Oct 5, 2013
- 22,551
- 24,452
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- Sydney
So you said it wasn't "score assists" but score assists are part of your equation.
Not disputing that he isn't damaging.
Just question your methodology.
Who we rest forward sometimes, unlike Mitchell.
Your stat is meaningless as a measure of 'damaging'. Players like Smith who get it on the outside are always going to have more score involvements (relative to their possessions) than a player who is always getting it on the inside like Mitchell because the very fact that the ball has already reached the outside player means we've got control of the play and are transitioning forward. The closer the player is the end of the scoring chain, the better he will look on your stat because the chances are higher than the possession will become a conversion. Players at the coal face that don't tend to have a big outside game or rest forward will look much worse because they are at the start of potential scoring chains, and the the closer you are to the start, the lower the probability that the chain will result in a score due to a broken link in the chain further along that the original guy getting it out may have had nothing to do with.
I'm not saying Mitchell is the most damaging player around, in fact I'd concede his possessions are on average less damaging than other mids who have more run and carry, or are getting their possessions right in front of goal while resting forward, but the ability to win the ball almost at will is a very handy skill, and when we've had big turnarounds in our favour (like some of the comebacks this year), it is not unusual for that to have been off the back of a lot of grunt work from Mitchell. Scoring isn't the only way of measuring effectiveness. When Mitchell has the ball (which is a shit load when he's playing well), the opposition doesn't, and if the opposition doesn't have the ball, they are not scoring.
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Iceman!
Brownlow Medallist
Score involvements per possession may be one of the most convoluted and irrelevant ways to judge a player, doing it for a midfielder is even worse.
If you want to criticize Tom at the moment it should be for the drop off in his contested footy and his clearance numbers, that needs to be his 1 wood.
He is a shadow of the player he was in 2018 but is still a good mid who would be even better in a team with outside class for him to deliver the ball to.
He is still in our top few players so would not be pushing him out the door, if a team felt he was a difference maker for them and was willing to pay a decent price we would probably listen. No chance he gets offloaded for chump change though.
If you want to criticize Tom at the moment it should be for the drop off in his contested footy and his clearance numbers, that needs to be his 1 wood.
He is a shadow of the player he was in 2018 but is still a good mid who would be even better in a team with outside class for him to deliver the ball to.
He is still in our top few players so would not be pushing him out the door, if a team felt he was a difference maker for them and was willing to pay a decent price we would probably listen. No chance he gets offloaded for chump change though.
