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AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Top 10 Great Football Clubs..
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Norm Smith Medallist
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This is the best list so far but I'd have Real Madrid at 1 of course. Real have 41 major titles (european cups and league titles). Its a good argument regarding international achievements.
Well done to people picking the non big names like Benfica and Ajax.
Shoei has now beaten me to the punch but as the local Dutch correspondent, I had planned to make a case for Ajax to be on your list. Some reasons:
1. Revolutionised football tactics with 'total football' - a tactic so effective that a veritable youth team won back to back to back Champions league crowns. Widely used around the world today and its implementations are evident in every team - eg. attacking full backs, overlaps, etc. Perfected at Barcelona who were the first team to adopt it after Ajax when its implemeter Johan Cruyff went over. He also managed them for nearly a decade and since then, Barca have had more Ajax players than from any other club in the world - including Spanish clubs. Their style today - which has seen them become the best club in the world - is almost the exact replica of Ajax's total football.
2. The original and ultimate youth academy. Despite being in a 'second tier' league, Ajax has produced and/or developed some of the best players of all time - Cruyff, van Basten, van der Sar, Bergkamp, Stam, Seedorf, etc. Some of the current players who really developed their game at Ajax include Suarez, Ibrahimovich, Sneijder, Vertongen, van der Vaart, etc. With (much) less money than the big leagues, Ajax had to develop their own talent while the major Eurpoean clubs bought them. Even then, they could only keep their world class players till about the age of 21 and yet have developed such good talents that they have won 4 Champions League crowns (and made 6 finals) with basically youth squads. Now every major club in the world has a youth academy which essentially replicates the Ajax model.
3. Results. As has now been mentioned, Ajax has been Champions league winners 4 times - which is equal with Barca and Bayern, more than Man U and twice as many as Juve (all on your short list). They have also won the league 31 times - admittedly not as strong as others - but you can only beat who is put in front of you and in the 70's and 80's the Dutch league was pretty strong - as evidenced by the Champions league being won 5 times by Dutch clubs including PSV and Feyenoord. Ajax has also won the Intercontinental Cup twice (equal with Juve and Bayern and more than Barca, Man U, etc). Ajax have also won the Cup Winner's Cup and the UEFA Super Cup (twice). They remain the only club to win the European treble and keep the European (i.e. Champion's league) Cup. According to the IFFHS, Ajax were rated the 7th most succeshul club of the 20th Century.
To compare to your beloved Man U
League titles: Ajax 31 - Man U 19 (obviously different leagues)
Domestic cups: Ajax 18 (KNVB) - Man U 11 (FA + 4 league Cups)
Champs league: Ajax 4 - Man U 3
Intercontinental: Ajax 2 - Man U 1
Cup Winner's Cup: 1-1
UEFA Super Cup: 2-1
Shoei has now beaten me to the punch but as the local Dutch correspondent, I had planned to make a case for Ajax to be on your list. Some reasons:
1. Revolutionised football tactics with 'total football' - a tactic so effective that a veritable youth team won back to back to back Champions league crowns. Widely used around the world today and its implementations are evident in every team - eg. attacking full backs, overlaps, etc. Perfected at Barcelona who were the first team to adopt it after Ajax when its implemeter Johan Cruyff went over. He also managed them for nearly a decade and since then, Barca have had more Ajax players than from any other club in the world - including Spanish clubs. Their style today - which has seen them become the best club in the world - is almost the exact replica of Ajax's total football.
2. The original and ultimate youth academy. Despite being in a 'second tier' league, Ajax has produced and/or developed some of the best players of all time - Cruyff, van Basten, van der Sar, Bergkamp, Stam, Seedorf, etc. Some of the current players who really developed their game at Ajax include Suarez, Ibrahimovich, Sneijder, Vertongen, van der Vaart, etc. With (much) less money than the big leagues, Ajax had to develop their own talent while the major Eurpoean clubs bought them. Even then, they could only keep their world class players till about the age of 21 and yet have developed such good talents that they have won 4 Champions League crowns (and made 6 finals) with basically youth squads. Now every major club in the world has a youth academy which essentially replicates the Ajax model.
3. Results. As has now been mentioned, Ajax has been Champions league winners 4 times - which is equal with Barca and Bayern, more than Man U and twice as many as Juve (all on your short list). They have also won the league 31 times - admittedly not as strong as others - but you can only beat who is put in front of you and in the 70's and 80's the Dutch league was pretty strong - as evidenced by the Champions league being won 5 times by Dutch clubs including PSV and Feyenoord. Ajax has also won the Intercontinental Cup twice (equal with Juve and Bayern and more than Barca, Man U, etc). Ajax have also won the Cup Winner's Cup and the UEFA Super Cup (twice). They remain the only club to win the European treble and keep the European (i.e. Champion's league) Cup. According to the IFFHS, Ajax were rated the 7th most succeshul club of the 20th Century.
To compare to your beloved Man U
League titles: Ajax 31 - Man U 19 (obviously different leagues)
Domestic cups: Ajax 18 (KNVB) - Man U 11 (FA + 4 league Cups)
Champs league: Ajax 4 - Man U 3
Intercontinental: Ajax 2 - Man U 1
Cup Winner's Cup: 1-1
UEFA Super Cup: 2-1
Someone should come up with a clear way of ranking these clubs. Just silverware? Or fans also? Social impact? Fame? Pulling power? Whoever was trolololing at Barcelona only winning 4 European cups, does that mean you believe they were not a big club yet before '92?
It's hard to compare times also, coz today it is considerably harder to win the CL than it was 20 years ago. And non-European clubs keep getting overlooked.
It's hard to compare times also, coz today it is considerably harder to win the CL than it was 20 years ago. And non-European clubs keep getting overlooked.
Gee I like the effort but I was just listing the teams that everyone had put down. Ajax are not so relevant these days but they are still a pretty good clubWell done to people picking the non big names like Benfica and Ajax.
Shoei has now beaten me to the punch but as the local Dutch correspondent, I had planned to make a case for Ajax to be on your list. Some reasons:
1. Revolutionised football tactics with 'total football' - a tactic so effective that a veritable youth team won back to back to back Champions league crowns. Widely used around the world today and its implementations are evident in every team - eg. attacking full backs, overlaps, etc. Perfected at Barcelona who were the first team to adopt it after Ajax when its implemeter Johan Cruyff went over. He also managed them for nearly a decade and since then, Barca have had more Ajax players than from any other club in the world - including Spanish clubs. Their style today - which has seen them become the best club in the world - is almost the exact replica of Ajax's total football.
2. The original and ultimate youth academy. Despite being in a 'second tier' league, Ajax has produced and/or developed some of the best players of all time - Cruyff, van Basten, van der Sar, Bergkamp, Stam, Seedorf, etc. Some of the current players who really developed their game at Ajax include Suarez, Ibrahimovich, Sneijder, Vertongen, van der Vaart, etc. With (much) less money than the big leagues, Ajax had to develop their own talent while the major Eurpoean clubs bought them. Even then, they could only keep their world class players till about the age of 21 and yet have developed such good talents that they have won 4 Champions League crowns (and made 6 finals) with basically youth squads. Now every major club in the world has a youth academy which essentially replicates the Ajax model.
3. Results. As has now been mentioned, Ajax has been Champions league winners 4 times - which is equal with Barca and Bayern, more than Man U and twice as many as Juve (all on your short list). They have also won the league 31 times - admittedly not as strong as others - but you can only beat who is put in front of you and in the 70's and 80's the Dutch league was pretty strong - as evidenced by the Champions league being won 5 times by Dutch clubs including PSV and Feyenoord. Ajax has also won the Intercontinental Cup twice (equal with Juve and Bayern and more than Barca, Man U, etc). Ajax have also won the Cup Winner's Cup and the UEFA Super Cup (twice). They remain the only club to win the European treble and keep the European (i.e. Champion's league) Cup. According to the IFFHS, Ajax were rated the 7th most succeshul club of the 20th Century.
To compare to your beloved Man U
League titles: Ajax 31 - Man U 19 (obviously different leagues)
Domestic cups: Ajax 18 (KNVB) - Man U 11 (FA + 4 league Cups)
Champs league: Ajax 4 - Man U 3
Intercontinental: Ajax 2 - Man U 1
Cup Winner's Cup: 1-1
UEFA Super Cup: 2-1
Flameboy
Norm Smith Medallist
Outside of the Netherlands, Ajax are largely irrelevant these days.
The term "Great" is a subjective one. What quantifies being great... Success? History? Popularity?
I think right now in 2013, United are the "biggest" club who draw the most attention worldwide, as well as in Europe. Not to mention being the most successful club in English history.
That's why I put them as number 1. (As much as I hate them)
The term "Great" is a subjective one. What quantifies being great... Success? History? Popularity?
I think right now in 2013, United are the "biggest" club who draw the most attention worldwide, as well as in Europe. Not to mention being the most successful club in English history.
That's why I put them as number 1. (As much as I hate them)
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Yes, Yes, Yes, No.
What hurts United is lack of European Success.
Madrid and Barca have been a huge clubs for over 50yrs, no one else is like them.
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They aren't.
Flameboy
Norm Smith Medallist
May I then ask... Why do you have Boca and River at 7 & 8 if lack of European Success is the reason you don't rate United as highly? (Surely the South American Champions League [or whatever it's called] isn't a factor?)
Flameboy
Norm Smith Medallist
In English competitions... and besides, at the end of this season they'll have at least equaled you on total trophies.
Flameboy
Norm Smith Medallist
Obviously they can't.
My point is, if you're saying the reason Real/Barca/Juve/Milan are "greater" than MU is purely because of their success in European competitions, then I would have thought you'd have Liverpool/Ajax/Benfica etc ahead of River and Boca. Particularly Liverpool who have won it 5 times.
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Not solely based on europe.
I think in terms of domestic dominance Real/Barca/Juve/Milan have been at least on a par with United.
In europe they've been better, and also their history over 50 years has been better than ManU.
Also its my opinion that in terms of Real supporters those 4 clubs have as much as ManU, if not more
Flameboy
Norm Smith Medallist
They may have as many real supporters but they still don't get anywhere near the worldwide coverage MU do. That for me is a big factor in determining the greatest... It's why in 20 years time, clubs like Chelsea & City will be in the discussion. IMO.
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Id like to know how they judge supporter base.
surely REAL and BARCA have more followers world wide than any other club
We are ahead of them in total trophies alreadyIn English competitions... and besides, at the end of this season they'll have at least equaled you on total trophies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_F.C.–Manchester_United_F.C._rivalry#Football_rivalry
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Norm Smith Medallist
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As mentioned by someone else Barca were irrelevant prior to the turn of the century.
Barca's rep gets carried by Real's dominance and prestige. Being the next best in Spain and Real's biggest rival elevates them more than what they're worth.
Oh get a clue ffs
No one is saying they're bigger than Real. I wonder why you feel the need to keep bringing that up.
You called them irrelevant which is remarkable for a club that signed players like Cruyff, Neeskens, Maradona, Romario, Ronaldo, Stoichkov and who not ages before they became relevant in your trolling delusional mind.
I grew up in Europe. Barcelona were always a big club, and one of the most appealing for neutral fans. Be it through Cruyff, their identity, their stadium or most of all their style of play. I remember many seasons where they would screw up in Europe, yet never were they considered a smaller club because of it.
By the way, I couldn't care less where they rank in football's history. I'm enjoying the football they've brought in recent seasons. You keep enjoying Real's dominance in the 50ies mate
. But in this thread, it's not too much to ask to actually stick to reality when it comes to Barcelona's past.
You called them irrelevant which is remarkable for a club that signed players like Cruyff, Neeskens, Maradona, Romario, Ronaldo, Stoichkov and who not ages before they became relevant in your trolling delusional mind.
I grew up in Europe. Barcelona were always a big club, and one of the most appealing for neutral fans. Be it through Cruyff, their identity, their stadium or most of all their style of play. I remember many seasons where they would screw up in Europe, yet never were they considered a smaller club because of it.
By the way, I couldn't care less where they rank in football's history. I'm enjoying the football they've brought in recent seasons. You keep enjoying Real's dominance in the 50ies mate
. But in this thread, it's not too much to ask to actually stick to reality when it comes to Barcelona's past.
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Norm Smith Medallist
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I meant more that Barca weren't in the top bracket of clubs like they are today. Today their best player wouldn't join RM like Figo did.
You may refer to the 50's and 60's which Barca or any other team have never replicated. Barca's recent purple patch of 3 CL's in 6 seasons was mirror'd by RM just a few years ago in 5, 98 00 02.
You may refer to the 50's and 60's which Barca or any other team have never replicated. Barca's recent purple patch of 3 CL's in 6 seasons was mirror'd by RM just a few years ago in 5, 98 00 02.
In the tournament's current format, no team will repeat what Real, Ajax, Bayern and Liverpool did. Back in the day it was easier to win the tournament. Nowadays no team manages to win it back to back anymore.
You've brought up Real's titles before. Do you really believe Real fans today are happy they've won so much in the past? It's just something to brag about really, which can be a bit sad in a way. What really counts for them is that they haven't won the CL in 10 years while their rivals have won 3 since, just like their dominance around the turn of the century was hurting Barcelona fans.
You've brought up Real's titles before. Do you really believe Real fans today are happy they've won so much in the past? It's just something to brag about really, which can be a bit sad in a way. What really counts for them is that they haven't won the CL in 10 years while their rivals have won 3 since, just like their dominance around the turn of the century was hurting Barcelona fans.
Woah....easier to win before it became the Champions league?
Before 1993 it was straight knockout with replay the next day for a draw and penalties if still tied, no "Away goals". League Champions and runners up (if your league champion was cup holder)
Now its a bloated group stage where you can lose your first 3 games then decide to play, snatch a lucky away goal and knock someone out and be the 4th best team and still play in the "Champions league".
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