List Mgmt. Trade and F/A 2020 Cont’d

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Timmy from Thomastown said:
It was the choice he made. People don’t make it for all sorts of reasons.

There’s no guarantee he would have been best 22 when we were at our peak in 2018
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Given the injuries we had that year he definitely would have been best 22.
 

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Knightmare said:
Parker I'm not high on and his pressure metrics from 2019 that I've seen at least were poor. Poor numbers, poor scoreboard impact for a forward. Underutilised as a target and reasonably effective when used. Ultimately he's one who hasn't done anything to convince me, so he isn't one I'd consider. There isn't those performances on the board in any particular facet that gives me confidence.

Tom McDonald I really like as a key defender and feel like he has been entirely misused for a number of years now but Oscar has been disappointing. Oscar doesn't offer value as an intercepter or rebounder, but as a stopper I'm not a fan either. 1v1 is where he gets exposed and was 2nd worst of the top-100 to defend contests. Oscar's play these past two years I've found disappointing and as with Parker I don't see him as that best 22 guy. As a concept, I see no particular appeal in targeting guys in their mid 20s just because of age profile. I'd much rather a 30 year old who is a clear best 22 standard guy v someone mid 20s who isn't. And you can keep loading up on that Majak Daw's, Lynden Dunn's, Josh Walker's etc each year. And that's the route until there is an Aliir Aliir or Tom McDonald through the trade period who is undervalued. Or some guy through the draft who is a clear best available and looks like a clear long-term best 22 guy.

Townsend is one I don't love for Collingwood either. He's a guy where if I have 21 seriously good players and that kind of role player is needed, I'd grudgingly settle for, but I'd ideally like better. He's an able converter in front of goal (but gets little in the way of opportunities) and all he can offer is pressure. He's basically Brent Macaffer in a Collingwood context. I agree that type of player is a missing component, though I'd be more interested personally in tracking what happens with Irving Mosquito and whether Essendon re-sign him. Before his torn ACL he looked like another Anthony McDonald-Tipungwuti for Essendon. That's the guy I'd want if Essendon are umming and ahrrring over him and he's that right forward balance guy for this Collingwood group with his speed/pressure/ground level craft.

Mason Wood has had his moments but I'm not huge on him. Good athlete, can leap and can take a mark, but the production and volume of production isn't there to get me enthusiastic. If he is to become a consistent footballer, my view is his only chance is in defence. When you have an aerial marking threat or a contested marking threat, that's where you put them if they can't consistently get it done up front. I wouldn't use a list spot on him as it's too speculative of a hope and Collingwood still have Howe, but maybe for a club lacking a tallish intercepter maybe there is that potential. But he's more someone I'd say go to the VFL and do that there before I re-draft you and really go prove you can be a consistent player in that role every week to convince me you're worth a spot.

Ben Jacobs is an excellent tagger but has had a lot of concussion issues. In the last 5 years only playing the 7 games in 2016 and 13 games in 2018, and with still significant health issues looming large, and he's someone I'd be suggesting should retire and call it a career. With availability the best ability, he's another pass from me.
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Mosquito looks like brad dick MK2 imo
 
pablo disco bar said:
Mosquito looks like brad dick MK2 imo
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Dick could play and could really pressure like crazy. He just got hurt a lot and struggled to have a career based on that.
 
Knightmare said:
Dick could play and could really pressure like crazy. He just got hurt a lot and struggled to have a career based on that.
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Dick also have an Amazing Kick on him
 
Haven't seen too many indigenous players (male or female) Dave that can't kick. They all seem to be natural footballers and their vision and reflexes also set them apart.
 
Big Bryza said:
Maybe it just shows exactly where Stevo is at.

He's a one trick pony (a decent one at that) but gee whiz he's got a lot of work to do to make it as a long term AFL player.

A lot of kids burst on to the scene and a lot fade away just as fast.

For 2.5mil plus over 5 years, he would want to start getting to work quick smart.
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A lot of work to do? Kicking 5 in multiple games not good enough for you? He had GF and a shite time in hub. As did Grundy. Has he got a lot of work to do as well? Stevo will be a gun. Will always be the one that got away imo. 10 - 12 years ahead of him ffs......... nice one CFC.
 

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Robroy22 said:
Haven't seen too many indigenous players (male or female) Dave that can't kick. They all seem to be natural footballers and their vision and reflexes also set them apart.
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Lot have Freakish Talent but they Struggle in a Professional Environment
 
Robroy22 said:
Haven't seen too many indigenous players (male or female) Dave that can't kick. They all seem to be natural footballers and their vision and reflexes also set them apart.
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Troy Cook was the only ball butcher that i can remember.
 
Knightmare said:
Parker I'm not high on and his pressure metrics from 2019 that I've seen at least were poor. Poor numbers, poor scoreboard impact for a forward. Underutilised as a target and reasonably effective when used. Ultimately he's one who hasn't done anything to convince me, so he isn't one I'd consider. There isn't those performances on the board in any particular facet that gives me confidence.
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Parker is one you'd be picking on attributes rather than production. Basically, if you think he's got the work ethic and will to improve, he's young enough to be viewed like a draftee who has the attributes but hasn't put it together yet and he'd be worth a shot. If you doubt his approach to improvement, it's a pass.
 
sr36 said:
Parker is one you'd be picking on attributes rather than production. Basically, if you think he's got the work ethic and will to improve, he's young enough to be viewed like a draftee who has the attributes but hasn't put it together yet and he'd be worth a shot. If you doubt his approach to improvement, it's a pass.
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Is Parker young enough to improve? He's 25 in January.

If I'm to pick someone on 'upside' it's either a kid who has gone through a late and rapid growth spurt or is showing a rapid rate of football improvement. Rate of improvement in AFL players is what you want to measure if you're going to speculate on anyone.

What you're describing - picking a guy based off of attributes is the same mistake AFL recruiters make. That's not how to pick upside and look at entirely the wrong things.

Points of difference tell you what they can and can't do. That's helpful. And the other component I'd say it's applicable to is if guys have particular points of differences, you look at the positions those attributes can allow someone to make it, and maybe it gives you an option to use them somewhere else eg. if they're a good mark switch them back and make them into an intercepter for just one example. But don't make the mistake of associating attributes for upside. That's looking at entirely the wrong variable.

Can guys still make it in their mid-late 20s? That's mostly ruckmen who come good around 24/25. That's because they grow later. And up to that point, with a lot of them, it's tracking their rate of development and looking for that continued strong growth trajectory. We've had so many rookie success stories from Dean Cox, to Aaron Sandilands, to Darren Jolly, to Shane Mumford, to Sam Jacobs, to Oscar McInerney more recently and I could go on. Those guys all had in common rate of improvement. Year on year, getting better and improving. With guys in other positions it most often is when they switch to positions that suit their mix of attributes better. With Leon Davis on the most extreme end of that example where as a 29/30 year old he switched into defence and had a career year. First and only year he played in defence and it worked because he had the mix of attributes to make it work. He had the speed/agility and 1v1 strength to stop guys but then had the most incredible kick which was a remarkable weapon taking those kickouts. Look at the jump Jeremy Howe made shifting into defence. Would he be the same player if he remained forward? Would Jack Crisp be the player he is today if he didn't make the shift into defence? Those are the instances where attributions come into play - and that's why I'll talk about things like Tim English being better suited as a wing than a ruckman. He's entirely uncompetitive at stoppages whether it's for tapwork or followup work, and at boundary throwins can't read where the ball will drop and is always completely out of position. Put him on a wing, let him cover the ground like a midfielder as we already know he is capable of and let him be a menace and let him read the game and push back to take intercept marks and push forward for marks i50, which no one at his position. It gives you a bail-out option down the line. That's where that attribute related thinking can work for you.

Parker is neither a ruckman to expect such late development, nor is there any evidence that he has any particularly sharp improvement trend to suggest there is the upside to suggest he can become that decisive best 22 player. Plainly put, there is no one position I see for Parker where he can play at AFL level to a best 22 standard. Be it forward or back, he's more someone who can be a star in the state leagues but isn't AFL standard.
 
Knightmare said:
Is Parker young enough to improve? He's 25 in January.

If I'm to pick someone on 'upside' it's either a kid who has gone through a late and rapid growth spurt or is showing a rapid rate of football improvement. Rate of improvement in AFL players is what you want to measure if you're going to speculate on anyone.

What you're describing - picking a guy based off of attributes is the same mistake AFL recruiters make. That's not how to pick upside and look at entirely the wrong things.

Points of difference tell you what they can and can't do. That's helpful. And the other component I'd say it's applicable to is if guys have particular points of differences, you look at the positions those attributes can allow someone to make it, and maybe it gives you an option to use them somewhere else eg. if they're a good mark switch them back and make them into an intercepter for just one example. But don't make the mistake of associating attributes for upside. That's looking at entirely the wrong variable.

Can guys still make it in their mid-late 20s? That's mostly ruckmen who come good around 24/25. That's because they grow later. And up to that point, with a lot of them, it's tracking their rate of development and looking for that continued strong growth trajectory. We've had so many rookie success stories from Dean Cox, to Aaron Sandilands, to Darren Jolly, to Shane Mumford, to Sam Jacobs, to Oscar McInerney more recently and I could go on. Those guys all had in common rate of improvement. Year on year, getting better and improving. With guys in other positions it most often is when they switch to positions that suit their mix of attributes better. With Leon Davis on the most extreme end of that example where as a 29/30 year old he switched into defence and had a career year. First and only year he played in defence and it worked because he had the mix of attributes to make it work. He had the speed/agility and 1v1 strength to stop guys but then had the most incredible kick which was a remarkable weapon taking those kickouts. Look at the jump Jeremy Howe made shifting into defence. Would he be the same player if he remained forward? Would Jack Crisp be the player he is today if he didn't make the shift into defence? Those are the instances where attributions come into play - and that's why I'll talk about things like Tim English being better suited as a wing than a ruckman. He's entirely uncompetitive at stoppages whether it's for tapwork or followup work, and at boundary throwins can't read where the ball will drop and is always completely out of position. Put him on a wing, let him cover the ground like a midfielder as we already know he is capable of and let him be a menace and let him read the game and push back to take intercept marks and push forward for marks i50, which no one at his position. It gives you a bail-out option down the line. That's where that attribute related thinking can work for you.

Parker is neither a ruckman to expect such late development, nor is there any evidence that he has any particularly sharp improvement trend to suggest there is the upside to suggest he can become that decisive best 22 player. Plainly put, there is no one position I see for Parker where he can play at AFL level to a best 22 standard. Be it forward or back, he's more someone who can be a star in the state leagues but isn't AFL standard.
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There you go. I thought he was only 21 or so.
 
cityslick1 said:
A lot of work to do? Kicking 5 in multiple games not good enough for you? He had GF and a sh*te time in hub. As did Grundy. Has he got a lot of work to do as well? Stevo will be a gun. Will always be the one that got away imo. 10 - 12 years ahead of him ffs......... nice one CFC.
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You wanted Stevo traded - so why are you complaining?
 
makethat2 said:
Your a true believer!
Don't see how you think we were aggressive In the trade period. I think you'll find we were timid bent over.
You just keep on believing!
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Not sure why you think targeting and trading out 3x best 22 players isn’t being aggressive. Or why it would only be an aggressive move if we got what you think is a reasonable return.
 
jmac70 said:
Do you think they have managed our salary cap successfully?
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I don’t know but given we’ve never been outside our 95-105% I don’t know that it was as bad as the media were suggesting. I think there were consequences to the ”keep the list together” mentality following 2018, and that there were always going to be consequences to re-signing the key 3. Did I think that’d be Aish last year? No. Did I assume that’d be Treloar, Stevo, & Phillips this year? No. Am I sad to see them being targeted? No. Do I think that changes our TPP dynamic going forward in a positive way? Yes.
 
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jmac70 said:
Let’s assume the reported 300k we are still paying Treloar is true. If he plays 20 games next season and averages 25 possessions, every handball and kick will cost Collingwood $600.

This trade period has been a total disaster.

What will the club do if Grundy has another mediocre year?
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Make finals but unlikely go all the way I’d assume. But what happens if Grundy recaptures his 2019 form?
 
manicpie said:
I agree with what you're saying and that we made some hard decisions which I think will be beneficial for the club going forward. What annoys me is when Bucks said we were going to be aggressive during trade period, the majority of people believed we were going to finally get a KPF and a couple of other pieces we might need. The club talks in riddles and Bucks is the best of the lot at it, the biggest problem is that it must have an adverse effect on our ability to attract Good players to the club in the future.
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Maybe, maybe not. Players will know more about all this than all of us. They’ll know exactly why we targeted who we did and make decisions accordingly. I guess the test will be the 2021 FA period. We’ll have cash if the Beams TPP is as reported and only impacting 2021.
 
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