Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 2 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[gangsta deluxe]

Are you honestly saying that we tried to pick up a player without trumpeting the virtues of playing at our club? You think Power maybe just sent an email with an offer and sat refreshing his email account? This is a melt of epic proportion without knowing in the slightest how things may or may not have been handled by Sam and the club.


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The one and only thing I need to know is that we wanted him and he announced the Hawks, over us, and that we have a better hand than them in every way (for both him and Port).

Don’t give a flying **** how we got here or what has happened behind closed doors. Our resources and effort have been wasted on a false errand that we should have anticipated at best, and our team has been fundamentally incompetent in attracting a quality player at worst.

Whatever the case we’ve screwed up. We shouldn’t go blaming the player, or bemoaning hawthorn.

We should absolutely and always demand more. We’ve been let down as a club in recruitment here.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Hawks have lost the plot if they hand over their first plus Burton. He’s a future gun.
They must be desperate to save face after missing their first three targets.

Someone mentioned earlier that we weren’t willing to bow to Ports demands and so pulled out of the race for Chad. If that’s the case I’m ok with missing out at least we aren’t selling the farm just to be a player during the trade period.

Hit the draft and grow the strong list that’s currently developing nicely.

 

[gangsta deluxe]

What was the worse hand? Draft picks they Chad doesn't give a **** about?

A younger team, a mentor of his, more chance of success, a bigger contract. You ****ing name it.

 

[CaptainMurphy]

I haven't been comfortable with the Wingard situation right from day dot. The whole thing reeked of a player who wasn't overly committed and was just chasing the dollars. Yes he is talented, but is it worth selling the farm for him? I don't think so. We already cleared out a bloke who wasn't committed to training in JS. I've just felt that Chad would have been a bit of a Stringer mk2.

I voiced similar concerns a while ago. I'm still gutted at the concept of losing a target we went hard for to a last minute pitch by a bigger club, because of what that says about our ability to land players in the future, but when it comes specifically to Wingard I've been plenty wary of the reasons why Port seemed pretty happy to see what they could get for him.

 

[Mattdougie]

When we won the premiership, you know the holy grail that is is the ultimate dream in footy. Not sure if you remember but was pretty recently.

One year is not a winning culture

It’s a blip

 

[Maverick Dog]

Oof, seems like he might be a cancer.

I am disappointed he did not nominate us but not disappointed in not getting him. I am not confident he has the work rate and the attitude to get the best out himself. Hawks are in denial. They need to hit the draft and get good kids. They will fall of the cliff soon. Yes they have the best coach but their list is further off a premiership than ours. They may make finals some years but will never challenge in the next 5 years with their aging list.

Money better spent on a player with a quality character. We can only hope this is Kelly, but if we are to beat North we will need to show more promise than them next year.

 

[Lindsay_Gilbee]

If it’s true that Burton is a bit sour about being put up for trade... hope he has a case of the Daniel Bradshaw’s.

 

[Pannalstaroz]

Me:

Me too

Do we know what swayed it the Hawks way?


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Big club. That’s it. It’s actually heartbreaking.

Yes agree.

Like I have said, my source on Monday was impeccable. Extremely close to the whole situation. Thought I would share it with you guys as I’m sure it would have gotten some people excited.
Dogs were happy, Wingard happy, medical scheduled, and I believe close family and friends told also. A deal had to be nutted out though.

Things change in this industry though and I’m not privy to what has transpired since the Shiel deal fell through for the Hawks but it’s pretty obvious to read.

I never had it that he said it was us over the Hawks. It had it said by others involved that it was us but that’s the beauty of negotiation.

Everyone having a crack at him, don’t. He made a choice. He was literally perfect for us but it wasn’t to be. I don’t hate him. Not big on the Hawks right now though.

 

[CaptainMurphy]

I don't mind this thinking. To be honest, I would say this replicates North's ideas in recent times re: De Goey, Kelly & Heeney. They've gone after all of those guys and seen their performances/value rise significantly thereafter. A season earlier on the timing is probably the key to having a better chance.

Taranto is a good target actually. He would cost so much though. GWS traded very determinedly to pick him up a couple of years ago at pick 2. I would be looking at Ollie Florent. Sandringham kid. Exactly what we need re: pace, flair, talent & x-factor. Has two years to run on his current deal. Have a serious crack at him and see what happens maybe. Will Hayward would be the other one from the Swans.

GWS traded up to get McGrath, had to settle for Taranto when Essendon decided to take him at pick 1, which nobody was expecting when they traded up.

 

[Growlin woof]

I have a feeling we will end up with Menzel unfortunately, even with Lloyd

 

[TimlinOfficial]

From the Port board...we may have dodged a bullet here...

Ok so here's the 4-1-1. I've had a number of PMs pleading for reasoning. So here goes.

He locks himself away on Fortnite for away games, bringing his gaming gear with him and sits in his hotel room often alone.

This is an absolute pisser. To be clear, I still think he would have been a great pickup but I have just told this to a mate who has Wingard on PlayStation - 'CJwings20'. Apparently Chad is "ALWAYS" online. Wonder how he would have fitted in with the Dogs list. Don't think we have too many like this

 

[gangsta deluxe]

No offence intended but you seem to be displaying a 'DADDY I WANT A PONY' mentality where if you want something hard enough and long enough it will eventually happen.

Graham Wright and Clarko are excellent operators. And Wingard (forgive me for judging a book by his cover) strikes me as someone who might be susceptible to a 'oh Chad your the sort of player who belongs at a big club like ours playing in front of 80,000 every week' approach.

Incorrect. I want us to have a competent team that delivers results, and who are outstanding negotiators - the best at what they do. And that work their arse off to get there, and don’t just expect things to happen.

If this isn’t the expectation we have of everyone at the club we simply aren’t doing it right.

If we roll over and say “oh well they are better at bringing players in” or “woe is me we are a smaller team” then we will never get sustained success. It’s up to our team to fix this.

 

[TimlinOfficial]

GWS traded up to get McGrath, had to settle for Taranto when Essendon decided to take him at pick 1, which nobody was expecting when they traded up.

Ah I see - my apologies then

 

[maddog37]

So much drama I thought I had stumbled into my thirteen year olds Vampire Diaries forum.

Melts to be proud of.

 

[Doggies_13]

Our best 22 next year with ages as of round 1 next year.
B: Morris (36) naughton (19) wood (29)
HB: suckling (30) Cordy (22) JJ (26)
C : hunter (24) Bont (23) macare (24)
HF: dale (22) Schache (21) Williams (21)
F: gowers (22) Boyd (23) wallis (26)
Ruck: Trengove (28) McLean (23) Dunkley (22)
Int: Libba (26) Daniel (22) crozier (25) richards (19)

Depth: Dickson (31) English (21) Greene (21) Jong (25) lipinski (20) lynch (21) Roberts (25) young (20) smith (22)

Not going to list our 22 and under players: but includes 9 of our best 22 and some decent under 22s in our depth. Add to that west Khamis and pick 7

Would much rather our list than the one about to fall over the cliff.

So we missed Wingard, that’s sucks but isn’t end of the world. Keep pumping games into the talent we have.

 

[compact72]

Such is life peeps.

Time this club wins a few more games and become a powerhouse. This is just evidence that we didn't take our chances at the end of 2016

 

[Guido]

That all sounds lovely and flowery but in order to sustain success in this day and age you need to be able to attract talent. 12 years ago a player like Dahlhaus would never have left his club, free agency has changed the landscape and 12 year old anecdotes will not suffice anymore.

In your opinion its utterly impossible, but in my opinion the underlying fundamentals of the environment that Geelong succeeded in is similar, and that success almost exclusively from the draft can be replicated today. We've got 8-10 potential future AA's sitting on our list right now, the core for a long term period of success is there.

We need another 3-4 of that quality to build something special - whether those come from 2018-2022 drafts, Free Agency or massive trades, I couldn't care less. We've missed one big name player, but an equivalent talent *could* very well be picked up at 7 in the draft.

If your recruiting is excellent, you CAN build the fundamental pillars to long term success primarily through the draft.

12 year old anecdotes will not suffice anymore.

You harp on that it was 12 years ago, but it was one example - there are dozens of cases where clubs would have thrown the kitchen sink at a highly rated player, and in retrospect they either have been or would have been better off hitting the draft. To imply that this scenario only used to happen in the "old days and doesn't apply now" i don't think is correct.

So many people are so fixated on getting a star outside player. If we nail this pick, it will be an All Australian standard player, and we'll have him for 8 more years than we would have had Wingard for. That to me is a win, and a long term win/what is in the list's best long term interests is all that counts, all this victimhood "players don't choose us, poor little us" horseshit is a rubbish way of looking at it.

12 years ago a player like Dahlhaus would never have left his club, free agency has changed the landscape

I don't understand the argument - if there was still the same significant difference in contracts between what he was offered and what we were offering, why would he never have left back then? Faced with the same contracts, why would 2006 Dahlhaus make a different decision?

We lost an even better player in Nathan Brown with very similar differences in contract in 2003 (offered $1mil/3 years by us, Richmond offered $2mil/4 years). If there was Free Agency at the time, it would have been the same scenario, only the compensation would have been slightly different.

If you or anyone else think Hawthorn will fall off a cliff anytime soon keep watching as they regenerate their list and win, while we laud our potential and lose.

We'll see. Major eras tend end a few years later than expected. I remember waiting for Carlton and their list of old farts to fall in 97, 98, 99 ... f***ers kept denying gravity, it took until 2002. North's geriatrics kept them in finals contention until 2004, other than a couple of dead cat bounces, they've been bottom 8 since. Brisbane was meant to fall from their 3-peat peaks in 2006, 2007, 2009 they were still competing in finals. But in all cases, when the cliff came, it hit 'em good.

Hawthorn can do it their way, and we can do it our way. We'll see where each other is at in 3 years. Have no qualms in saying going forward, I'd prefer our list to theirs.

 

[Hobdog]

So much drama I thought I had stumbled into my thirteen year olds Vampire Diaries forum.

Melts to be proud of.

Some big ones. Very little evidence to back up the emotionally charged allegations too


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[Scary_Foot_9]

Incorrect. I want us to have a competent team that delivers results, and who are outstanding negotiators - the best at what they do.

If this isn’t the expectation we have of everyone at the club we simply aren’t doing it right.

If we roll over and say oh well they are better or woe is me we are a smaller team we won’t get sustained success.

That's nonsense we offered a very generous asset (Pick 7 in most loaded draft in decades). You just completely seem to be discounting the fact Wingard might be thick as all hell and doesn't realise Hawthorn is about to fall of a cliff in the next few years when their remaining core of premiership players reach their UBD.

In the past few years we have managed to get Suckling, Boyd, Crozier and Schache (while they might not necessarily be stars (although I think Crozier and Schache will be seen as such quicker than we might realise) they are all solid best 22 players who any club would take). To say we are displaying a woe is me small club mentality is just rubbish.

 

[revo333]

i would be ok with Townsend .. was pretty good in 2017

Was a golden patch but i reckon he is no chance of getting anywhere near it again.

 

[footscray1973]

How dare this human being make a decision on where he would prefer to work nearly every day for the next 4+ years

What a monster

Don’t know too many punters earning $800k pa. If people here feel opprobrium is justified, I don’t have any problems with them venting, I think some of the hate directed at Sam Power is laughable, but I accept people’s right to do that - this an online forum where real-life is rarely a consideration. Cheerio.

 

[Trugo3013]

I wanted him to be a competent list manager to say the things Chad wanted to hear and play on all of the benefits we have over Hawthorn, which are many and obvious.

It’s his ******* job. If we wanted him we should now have him.

Don’t blame Chad, this is a failure from our end. Poor communication, poor result. Unacceptable. And if he’s not a quality talent scout then we are really ******.

FFS, we don't really know anything that happened except that Chad chose the Hawks. We can guess that it was a money-based decision though.
Assuming we played our best card (let's say pick 7 and 850k) then what more can we do if the Hawks up their deal to say 1M? That's a ****ing lot of money over the years and as we all know, footy careers can end in a blink. If the money was what swayed it in the end for Chad then that's that.
Our club has already stated that we won't pay massive overs (Bevo has even said that he would have vetoed the Boyd deal had he been around for it.)
So, you can see it as a failing of our club, or you can see it as our club holding the line and not getting shafted for big bucks. I'm upset that Wingard isnt coming to us, but at this point in time, I'm choosing to view the situation as us sticking our guns.

Having said all that, if he's gone to the Hawks for less coin than what we were offering he can **** right off and I'll agree that we do in fact suck!

 

[Norm De Guerre]

Incorrect. I want us to have a competent team that delivers results, and who are outstanding negotiators - the best at what they do. And that work their arse off to get there, and don’t just expect things to happen.

If this isn’t the expectation we have of everyone at the club we simply aren’t doing it right.

If we roll over and say “oh well they are better at bringing players in” or “woe is me we are a smaller team” then we will never get sustained success. It’s up to our team to fix this.

Your last few posts seem to be drawing a lot of conclusions from a process that you had absolutely zero access to. Other than the club letting it be know that we have an interest in Wingard we kept an unusually tight reign on what any offer may have entailed and how we actually weighted Wingard value to us. To me this is a refreshing sign of competence not the inverse.

 

[bullet11]

Well a few tweets from Ricky Nixon:

Ben long wants to return to western bulldogs
Daniel Menzel not opposed to come to western bulldogs
Mitch honey church to gcs
Libba not happy with our offer and looking at Essendon

 

[0utsider]

Not sure if you are being sarcastic or no very ordinary.
Defence flaky. on ballers slow (even though you've missed Libba). forwards that cant kick goals, young ruckman that needs more development.
Kicking skills ordinary, no monster defender.
Can I keep going?

What do you mean by flaky? That plus the likely addition of Ben King will be a very solid backline in time. I understand that having such young CHB and FF is a problem but I'm talking about our long term vision not just next season.

I disagree that those forwards can't kick goals. I reckon every one of those players gets 20+ if they get continuity into their game, maybe with the exception of Mclean who will play a lot of mid. Gowers and Wallis will get 30+ each if they play every game.

It's true that kicking inside 50 needs to be addressed but we do have a few who are elite in that area or have the potential to be.

Obviously that 22 is not going to set the competition alight, but the core is there, its young and it's going to be added to.