Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 6 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[dogwatch]

Pretty sure it was Polly Farmer, DW.
Don't remember any details, but I do recall it being front page news in the papers.
I remember Bob Davis being heavily involved. The original 'poach coach'?

Must've been resolved, as Polly played a lot of games for Geelong.

There was also some controversy at that time around the recruitment of Denis Marshall (another WA gun), but I don't think it was to do with dodgy payments.

Well you are certainly right about Polly Farmer. That's another episode involving Geelong flouting the rules. However I'm pretty sure there was a scandal involving Alistair Lord. I'll keep looking.

Anyway, here's an extract from the link kindly provided by DognBones - I've left in and bolded the last paragraph to show that we weren't beyond a bit of skuldoggery ourselves, although not to the extent that Geelong went:

Graham ‘Polly’ Farmer was a majestic Australian Football player who had dominated the Western Australian Football League since making his debut for East Perth as an 18-year old. During the 1961 season, Farmer, then aged 27, made it known that he wanted to move to a Victorian Football League (VFL) club to play at the highest level possible. In negotiating with Farmer, VFL Clubs were restrained by the Coulter Law, the League’s recruiting and payment regulations that had been established in 1930 to set a maximum player wage and outlaw the payment of signing-on bonuses and other inducements.

Until 1970 The Coulter Law was the major device used by the VFL to stabilise the financial position of its clubs and promote competitive balance – a situation where resources and talent are distributed in a way that makes games unpredictable and attractive to spectators.

In 1961 the League’s maximum match payment was £6 per game – only 17 per cent of the Basic Wage, Australia’s centrally determined minimum wage for full-time workers (Hawke, 1994, p. 146; Hess, Nicholson, Stewart, & De Moore, 2008, p. 239; Vamplew, 1987, p. 156). Farmer chose to join Geelong and his contract included additional payments at a base rate of £1000 per year (over £55 per match in an 18-game season), a guaranteed job as a car salesman and payment of the rent on a house. Geelong also slipped East Perth £1,500 cash in return for releasing Farmer – another practice that was prohibited by the Coulter Law (Hawke, 1994, pp. 148, 151). Farmer was thus able to capture the economic rents that his skills generated, just as he would have been able to have done had the labour market been competitive.

Clandestine player payments came from sponsors and patrons and were not part of the formal club wage structure. They were not recorded in club financial statements for reasons of probity and to avoid League sanctions. Football observers had for some time been convinced that breaching the Coulter Law to secure star players was a common practice among clubs. There were complaints in the press that non-compliance by clubs had made the regulations ‘farcical’ as early as 1931 (Donald, 2003, p. 31).

In 1950 19-year old Herb Henderson was on a train from Mildura, carrying his football gear in a hessian sack, having been invited to try out with Richmond. Footscray’s secretary and another official boarded at North Melbourne, the second last stop, called out Henderson’s name and persuaded him to get off the train. For a fee of £100, Footscray signed a player who would become a star fullback (Lack, McConville, Small, & Wright, 1996, p. 162; Western Bulldogs Forever Foundation, 2010, p. 120).

 

[Hobdog]

Gee Baz posts some dross on his social media.


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[BrisDog]

Gee Baz posts some dross on his social media.


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Trade him and reduce the narcissism levels at the club. We are blue colour hard campaigners, not Botox filled flogs.

 

[doggie dog]

If that was the case I'd prefer the three top 15 picks. The top 20 is so even this year, it'd transform our side similarly to how Port did with Butters, Rozzee and Duursma.

In some mock draft, the top 4 picks are mids and 9 out of the top 10 picks are mids.
2 players in that top 10 are a fwd/mid and a def/mid

 

[Mojorisin]

In some mock draft, the top 4 picks are mids and 9 out of the top 20 picks are mids.
2 players in that top 10 are a fwd/mid and a def/mid

It's a very Mid heavy draft this year.

 

[doggie dog]

It's a very Mid heavy draft this year.

In 2 years we could be missing libba jack and smithy with Bont 2 years olders.
A couple of gun midfielders to go with Ed and Sanders that can run with a spine of Astro,Marra,Darcy, Croft, Buku, Buss.
Fill in the outside flanks and we are good for a few premmie tilts.

 

[ScragCity]

Doesn’t stack up, especially in relation to elite talents who may be so scarce that they are irreplaceable. Would you be ok losing Bont because we get a million and a bit back in cap space? I wouldn’t.

Would you be okay losing Bont and getting pick 14 as compensation? I wouldn't either - as you said he's irreplaceable and in the prime of his career so the opportunity to draft an unproven child doesn't balance the scales.

Do compensation picks really make a difference? My suspicion is that they don't. All they do is ruin the draft.

 

[Mojorisin]

In 2 years we could be missing libba jack and smithy with Bont 2 years olders.
A couple of gun midfielders to go with Ed and Sanders that can run with a spine of Astro,Marra,Darcy, Croft, Buku, Buss.
Fill in the outside flanks and we are good for a few premmie tilts.

In an ideal world I'd be taking atleast one of each of outside Mid, balanced Mid (inside/outside) and small forward.
I wouldn't want to go near a specialist Mid, I don't think you can carry more then 2 anymore. More then happy to have Sanders as that Libba replacement Clearance specialist.

 

[Doggy]

In an ideal world I'd be taking atleast one of each of outside Mid, balanced Mid (inside/outside) and small forward.
I wouldn't want to go near a specialist Mid, I don't think you can carry more then 2 anymore. More then happy to have Sanders as that Libba replacement Clearance specialist.

In 2 years we will have Cooney and West too at a minimum

 

[Sheikh from Boggy Creek]

Darcy may be an elite ruck, but with the exception of Gawn, there has not been an Elite ruck in a premiership team for closing in on 20 years.

Darcy is developing into an elite forward ruck, a much more dominant role who with Naughts and Marra can form a near unstoppable forward line given their pressure and ability below their knees.

Why on earth would we throw that away and try a pick-up hacks from other teams to replace English. Also, why subject Darcy's body first ruck when it is 3 to 5 years away from fully maturing.

The first 3 years of English's contract provides great opportunity for Smith to develop his craft and come in when English is unavailable.

5 years at around $800,000 is.spot on. We have heaps a cap space and takes care of ruck, ruck forwards for the next years with the possibility of Croft developing in that mix to.

As for Smith, from what I have heard, it is a strong possibility he will move on but certainly not definite. Given our updated offer and the support provided to him, not only this year, but with his other issues, I would not be surprised at all if he signs around September.

Smith and English resigning given both their age and roles they do and can play puts us in a significantly better position than a late first rounder this draft, which we could also obtain by trading a future first if necessary.

As for Barass, he is as close to cooked as you can get, given the development of our backs would only take him on as a part of a salary dump and even then would think about it.

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Bu all things aren't equal, as you rightly point out in your last sentence.

The compensation doesn't negate the inequality entirely, but it does counter it to some degree. Which is better than nothing.

It's a real bugbear of mine that the FA compensation doesn't come from the club receiving the player. When Tom Lynch moves to reigning premiers Richmond, Gold Coast receives Pick 3, but he costs Richmond nothing. Just perpetuates big club power and keeps minnows at the bottom. Ben McKay ditto and numerous other examples. Almost always, the big clubs win.

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[Mojorisin]

In 2 years we will have Cooney and West too at a minimum

2 years is a long time in football, especially for 16 year olds. They could be top 10 picks or rookies, we seen how late it was that Darcy started rocketing up boards. Still it's exciting times.

 

[dogwatch]

It's a real bugbear of mine that the FA compensation doesn't come from the club receiving the player. When Tom Lynch moves to reigning premiers Richmond, Gold Coast receives Pick 3, but he costs Richmond nothing. Just perpetuates big club power and keeps minnows at the bottom. Ben McKay ditto and numerous other examples. Almost always, the big clubs win.

The seeds of this may have been in the AFLPA's push for free agency. They want free movement of players (employees) to the club (employer) of their choice. Making the receiving club pay is fair and logical in a sporting sense but I suspect it was one of the terms of free agency that the AFLPA wasn't prepared to compromise on.

So we end up with a half-baked solution that keeps the AFLPA quiet but doesn't really deliver fairness or adhere to the equalisation principle. It's a problematical collision between sporting principles and free market principles. I don't know that we're likely to get a satisfactory solution any time soon. Any conditions that the AFL puts on a FA move will be regarded as a restraint on free labour.

The AFL is very wary about provoking the AFLPA. A (hypothetical) players' strike would cost it many millions of dollars and that's without considering the damage to its image and its relationship with sponsors and networks.

 

[dogwatch]

2 years is a long time in football, especially for 16 year olds. They could be top 10 picks or rookies, we seen how late it was that Darcy started rocketing up boards. Still it's exciting times.

Darcy's junior career peaked a little too early. He should have waited another year!

 

[Mofra]

A few guys I like the look of towards the middle and back end of the draft are Luke Urquhart (Mid/HF), Xavier Ivisic (Mid), Lucas McInerney (Wing) and Lenny Douglas (Small Forward).
I know the dogs have interviews atleast one of them in Ivisic.

I liked his game against SA. Just has that competitive gene that can't be taught. Really needs to work on his kicking.... but so did Clay Smith

 

[Mojorisin]

I liked his game against SA. Just has that competitive gene that can't be taught. Really needs to work on his kicking.... but so did Clay Smith

He has impressed me at half forward aswell, can be a genuine threat at ground level or on the lead and has a good leap on him. If we are going to play an extra midfielder joining from the forwardline I'd like them to be dangerous forward aswell.
If he had a better kick on him he would be a top 20 pick. His character and professionalism are almost top of the class on and off the field. I like him for similar reasons to Hugo Garcia last year.

 

[doggiesin08]

The current system is a poor compromise solution designed to placate the AFLPA when it pushed for free agency.

It has been suggested over the years that compensation for free agency moves should be dropped altogether. That removes two issues you mention but greatly exacerbates another: zero compensation for losing a player in the prime of his career.

I don't know if that option is still under consideration by the AFL but it would not favour clubs like ours if it was implemented. It would probably just favour the usual big clubs.

My understanding is the AFLPA was pushing for free agency more generally, but the compensation specifically was demanded by the clubs. I don’t think the AFLPA would really care if it was scrapped other than because there might be more matching on restricted FA’s.

 

[doggiesin08]

The seeds of this may have been in the AFLPA's push for free agency. They want free movement of players (employees) to the club (employer) of their choice. Making the receiving club pay is fair and logical in a sporting sense but I suspect it was one of the terms of free agency that the AFLPA wasn't prepared to compromise on.

So we end up with a half-baked solution that keeps the AFLPA quiet but doesn't really deliver fairness or adhere to the equalisation principle. It's a problematical collision between sporting principles and free market principles. I don't know that we're likely to get a satisfactory solution any time soon. Any conditions that the AFL puts on a FA move will be regarded as a restraint on free labour.

The AFL is very wary about provoking the AFLPA. A (hypothetical) players' strike would cost it many millions of dollars and that's without considering the damage to its image and its relationship with sponsors and networks.

I think a potential cleanup could be to delay the compensation pick by 1-2 seasons to stop cellar dwellers being so keen to lose FAs when they need them most (Frawley, McKay, etc.).

This also allows you to assess the net FA gain/loss over multiple years not just one year. The fact that currently if you gain/lose FAs in the same year the compensation reduces but that doesn’t apply if you do it across alternating years is nonsense, especially as we move towards being able to trade picks multiple years in advance.

 

[Bulldog1954]

I think the idea of having Darcy as our ruckman is crazy. I'm sure he'd make a great ruckman, but he has the potential to be the best forward in the league. I want a guy with his size and contested marking ability winning us games as a forward.

If English leaves, we need to bring in another ruckman.

 

[bullish23]

So based on what i read, English is offered 100k p.a. more by the eagles (800k v 900k) + an extra year. 1.4m more in totality…

Dogs will have to offer a 6th year, maybe incentive based to keep him.

 

[zucvv]

Trade cost for a contracted Dan Houston would be crazy

So picks we get from Bailey Smith won't be enough to get Houston?

 

[doggiesin08]

So based on what i read, English is offered 100k p.a. more by the eagles (800k v 900k) + an extra year. 1.4m more in totality…

Dogs will have to offer a 6th year, maybe incentive based to keep him.

The difference isn’t really $1.4m though because he’ll make something the year after the 5 year contract with us unless he’s medically retired (but he can still work in the real world). It’s a guaranteed $500k more ($1k per week post tax) and then year 6 could be anything, if the salary cap keeps going up maybe he commands more than $900k even as a 31/32 year old.

I know these guys have a limited period of time to make most of their lifetime income, and his agent needs to do his thing, but seriously the decision is:

(A) $38.2 monthly take-home with the Dogs, your partner is moving to Melbourne, you know the club, you know your teammates, team is competitive right now, or

(B) $42.6k monthly take-home, move back to WA, new club, new teammates, don’t even know who the coach is right now, guaranteed job to 2030 not just 2029, team will be shit for a few years yet, etc.

Surely we could throw in a +$100k incentive for All Australian selection, maybe $50k for the squad (he can’t argue it’s not achievable), and a 6th year provided he plays >[50]% of games in year 5?

 

[grassman75]

The 'WA lifestyle presenting strong appeal' he says.

No s*** Daniels, he's from WA.

The sitting with his knees around his ears on a plane every second week for the rest of his career reek of lifestyle appeal to me

 

[grassman75]

Stephenson is the last bloke in the league I’d want at my club. Has the body of a 65 year old who lives off coffee and darts, the brain isn’t that far behind.

He’s the bloke who is only 38 but looks 65 standing 3 feet away from the big screen at the TAB on a Tuesday at 11am for race 1 from Donald yelling go silver sovereign, get up, cmon, aww **** it, insert jockey name you campaigner

 

[grassman75]

Naughton to West Coast confirmed

They’ll have to stump up. 4 first rounders with his contact I reckon….Power will take a 2026 first, a 2027 third, with us sending back a next years 4th

 

[doggie dog]

In an ideal world I'd be taking atleast one of each of outside Mid, balanced Mid (inside/outside) and small forward.
I wouldn't want to go near a specialist Mid, I don't think you can carry more then 2 anymore. More then happy to have Sanders as that Libba replacement Clearance specialist.

I'd still go with best mids available, forgot that Treloar will also be close to retirement with Bont probably spending more time in the Fwd to ensure longevity.
Im happy with flea/westy with Arty and Clarke developing at the moment.
1 of those mids would have to be capable of playing on the wing(another position of need), to then rotate back through the guts.