Strategy Trade and List Management Thread Part 7 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[lachy]

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The mistake was only signing Smith to a 2 yr extension in 2022.

Signing Marra to a 2 yr extension this year was also a mistake.

Highly talented young players will always find suitors. Sign them up for longer contracts and if you need to move them on do it from a position of strength not weakness.

was it a mistake or is that what the players wanted?

a lot of hand wringing here forgetting 2 parties are involved in contracts

 

[Foxman98]

The mistake was only signing Smith to a 2 yr extension in 2022.

Signing Marra to a 2 yr extension this year was also a mistake.

Highly talented young players will always find suitors. Sign them up for longer contracts and if you need to move them on do it from a position of strength not weakness.

How is it a mistake if that’s all he wanted? Again you can sign or trade people against their will

 

[Angak]

How is it a mistake if that’s all he wanted? Again you can sign or trade people against their will

Our recent history suggests that we only sign our young players for 2-3 yrs max.

If we offered Smith a good deal at the time that at least took him to free agency I'm not convinced he doesn't accept.

 

[Foxman98]

Our recent history suggests that we only sign our young players for 2-3 yrs max.

If we offered Smith a good deal at the time that at least took him to free agency I'm not convinced he doesn't accept.

What club signs their 20-21 year olds for more?

Again you’re going under the impression that it’s a given we didn’t

 

[jdz101]

You realise we still have a draft to do, right?

You realise we now have 17 and 25 which we didn't have last week, right?

We have Kennedy who we also didn't have last week, right?

What do you want? You wanted us to keep Daniel and Macrae and get nothing for them next year after another year of them as subs or in the VFL?

Stop looking at it as one player in three players out. That's not how it's done.

Sure we do.

On the balance of probabilities it's extremely unlikely those picks return anything of comparable quality to what we lost, especially now that our draft guru who was a massive part of our finals success now works for Sydney. I could be wrong.

I was outspoken of the the view that Macrae and Daniel should have been playing over guys that are still here. Both will likely still play pretty good football next season and beyond.

 

[Struggle]

Our recent history suggests that we only sign our young players for 2-3 yrs max.

If we offered Smith a good deal at the time that at least took him to free agency I'm not convinced he doesn't accept.

Problem with that is the money, gun players will have managers telling them that signing long term while at your peak will get more money than the deal based on potential at 21/2.

 

[Foxman98]

Problem with that is the money, gun players will have managers telling them that signing long term while at your peak will get more money than the deal based on potential at 21/2.

By this logic we should be signing Croft up for 5-6 years so he doesn't leave

 

[Foxman98]

Sure we do.

On the balance of probabilities it's extremely unlikely those picks return anything of comparable quality to what we lost, especially now that our draft guru who was a massive part of our finals success now works for Sydney. I could be wrong.

I was outspoken of the the view that Macrae and Daniel should have been playing over guys that are still here.

Not really,

The 2 forwards who killed us in the EF this year were Watson and Dear how did Hawthorn get them from their list last year?

Macrae won't get midfield minutes and can't play else where Daniel doesn't have the size or speed required to defend in our zonal structure

 

[jdz101]

Not really,

The 2 forwards who killed us in the EF this year were Watson and Dear how did Hawthorn get them from their list last year?

Macrae won't get midfield minutes and can't play else where Daniel doesn't have the size or speed required to defend in our zonal structure

When it comes to the balance of probabilities in the draft, yes really.

I'm not sure what Nick Watson who was picked at 5 has to do with our haul or our situation. The probabilities of impact players shoots way up when you get picks at those spots, not in the late teens/20s.

Macrae absolutely will get time on the ball at St Kilda.

 

[Angak]

What club signs their 20-21 year olds for more?

Again you’re going under the impression that it’s a given we didn’t

Errol Gulden and Nick Daicos, who are both younger than Smith, have signed up until 2028 and 2029, respectively.

My impression is based on our recent history under the leadership of Power, Bains and Bevo of predominantly resigning young players to max 2-3 yr contracts extension. There is enough data to suggest that it is a pattern driven strategically by the club as opposed to being player driven.

 

[Foxman98]

Errol Gulden and Nick Daicos, who are both younger than Smith, have signed up until 2028 and 2029, respectively.

My impression is based on our recent history under the leadership of Power, Bains and Bevo of predominantly resigning young players to max 2-3 yr contracts extension. There is enough data to suggest that it is a pattern driven strategically by the club as opposed to being player driven.

So all you have is an academy pick and father son?

So should we re-sign Croft now for 6 years?

 

[Foxman98]

When it comes to the balance of probabilities in the draft, yes really.

I'm not sure what Nick Watson who was picked at 5 has to do with our haul or our situation. The probabilities of impact players shoots way up when you get picks at those spots, not in the late teens/20s.

Macrae absolutely will get time on the ball at St Kilda.

Darcy Wilson was pick 18 had great impact Logan Morris was 31 won a flag Mannagh was at 36 huge role in finals plenty of players available who can play roles and this draft is very deep

Yes he will because their midfield is shit ours isn't hence his value to us is little and why he played it so infrequently

 

[Mofra]

So all you have is an academy pick and father son?

So should we re-sign Croft now for 6 years?

Mac Andrew too, although Gold Coast aren't a club we should look to emulate.

 

[dogwatch]

He is basically giving Sam a pat on the head and saying good boy with that comment.

Totally condescending.

Trying to mend fences after expediently shafting us during trade week?

 

[Libbaaaa]

The mistake was only signing Smith to a 2 yr extension in 2022.

Signing Marra to a 2 yr extension this year was also a mistake.

Highly talented young players will always find suitors. Sign them up for longer contracts and if you need to move them on do it from a position of strength not weakness.

Was only a few years ago but it was a different time. Today Smith would be offered a 6-7 year extension coming off his 2021 finals campaign. Like I keep saying Butters has been signing 2-3 year deals in the same period and Smith is nowhere near the player he is.

 

[Foxman98]

Mac Andrew too, although Gold Coast aren't a club we should look to emulate.

Which is the point literally every club signs their draft picks to 2-3 year extensions when their initial contract expires

 

[Angak]

So all you have is an academy pick and father son?

So should we re-sign Croft now for 6 years?

There's plenty more examples;

Mac Andrew just signed until 2030 and is only 20 yrs old. I would have zero issues offering Marra a similar type deal. If we need to move him on later or he gets a godfather offer from Tassie or a rival club we can negotiate from a position of strength.

 

[House_of_Dahl]

I'm so furious that the club didn't have the foresight to realise Smith was going to do his ACL after the last trade period and didn't trade him first...

 

[Foxman98]

There's plenty more examples;

Mac Andrew just signed until 2030 and is only 20 yrs old. I would have zero issues offering Marra a similar type deal. If we need to move him on later or he gets a godfather offer from Tassie or a rival club we can negotiate from a position of strength.

Plenty more then goes onto name 1 please tell me the others then?

 

[Foxman98]

I'm so furious that the club didn't have the foresight to realise Smith was going to do his ACL after the last trade period and didn't trade him first...

*Trade him against his will

 

[Angak]

Plenty more then goes onto name 1 please tell me the others then?

hayden young signed until 2027 when he was only 21

 

[threenewpadlocks]

It's literally impossible to know the "benefit" of trading Macrae because the biggest anchor on his value was the fact that he was contracted to 2027, and both St Kilda and us would not want to pay him a lot of money for specifically the 2027 season at this stage in his career. Though, St Kilda were willing to wear that anchor, simply for their more immediate needs of having Macrae being greater than ours.

It's really hard to characterise the moves we made as "good" or "bad" because it's all about sustainability and preventing potential issues from ever becoming issues several years in advance. We offset the fact that we benefit into the longer term future by also identifying without Macrae and Daniel, our depth in experience, we also get Kennedy to offset that.

Macrae will turn 33 at the end of the 2027 season, and will almost certainly be earning more than Kennedy, who will turn 30 at the start of the 2027 season, and I think we can all agree it's far more likely Kennedy will be the better player in the 2027 season at the very least.

Why St Kilda did not just recruit Kennedy themselves is anyone's guess, but I suppose players' preferences can go both ways - we lost a player for unders because it was Smith's preference to play for Geelong and nobody else, but we got Kennedy for unders because it was his preference to play for us (or stay at Carlton), and not St Kilda.

 

[Angak]

Plenty more then goes onto name 1 please tell me the others then?

Sam Walsh also signed a 4 yr extention at the same time Smith signed for 2. Both from the same draft.

 

[Thunderoad]

We should have just traded Smith against his will when it suited us.

Even though you can't.

That would have solved all our problems.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Clearly there are reasons that both clubs and players would want to sign shorter and longer contracts for certain reasons.

Players like Pickett and Petracca were not able to extricate themselves from Melbourne this off-season because of long-term deals they previously signed, even when they wanted to leave.

If a player comes to you and says "look, I don't think it's going to happen, but I'm only signing a three or four-year deal because so much can change in three or four years, and I want some flexibility in my future as seen by the examples of how quickly a club can change, as is the case with Melbourne post 2021 flag", what really more can a club do?

It's clear that how self-centered Smith was as an individual he was wanting to control his own destiny and would not have signed a long term deal at all.

Smith will probably either run out his contract or get close to it at Geelong, too, in my eyes.