Trent Cotchin or Matthew Kreuzer

[mediumsizered]

Hypothetically,

If Carlton had already been in talks ( behind closed doors ) with Warnock pre- 2007 National Draft. And it had been determined that at the end 0f 2008 he would become a Blue.

Would you have still taken Kreuzer ?

I think NOT.

Our ruck division without Kreuzer would then be Warnock & Hampson, with Cloke pinch-hitting as an undersized ruckman. Given Hampson is a project ruckman (has been playing Aussie Rules for about 4 years only) & Cloke is not a long-term ruck solution (his future prospects lie as a forward), that leaves Warnock.

Kreuzer was the best ruckman available in the 2007 draft & had been the best player in the TAC Cup competition in 2007. Most of those 'in the know' agreed there was very little between Kreuzer & Cotchin at the top of the draft. Given we had secured Judd prior to the 2007 draft & that there was virtually nothing between Kreuzer & Cotchin, we went for the big man, because good midfield players come along a bit more often than good big men. That is demonstrated by the availability of players like Hamish Hartlett, Jack Ziebell & Steele Sidebottom, among others in this year's draft. And before you point to Natanui as a good big man, he will be a project player, who will most likely not adapt to AFL football as quickly as what Kreuzer has & won't be available to us anyway.

Moving forward, a ruck division of Warnock & Kreuzer is better than a ruck division of Warnock & a project ruckman & a shorter, pinch-hitting ruckman.

 

[TheRedPill]

Yeh Right.

Compelling.

 

[cormick]

Likewise

 

[Marc Shmurf 3]

Carlton, Richmond & West Coast had Kreuzer as their number 1 choice...

Melbourne had they had pick 1 would have still selected Morton...

Carlton as well as Richmond's need for a Quality Ruckman were parramount, hence that thought.

Cotchin will be a gun there is no doubting that. I have watch this kid since he was 9 and boy was it difficult to see us not selecting him... BUT i also watched Kreuzer grow from a young age and understood our position and need for a quality ruckman....

No club made the wrong choice... Both will be exceptional 200 game players for either club.

Cotchin will one day become an elite midfielder of the competition,

Kreuzer will one day become an elite ruckman/midfielder/forward of the competition....

Everyone wins...

 

[TheRedPill]

Likewise

Yeh Right.

 

[Rosstickle]

]Carlton, Richmond & West Coast had Kreuzer as their number 1 choice...[/B]

Melbourne had they had pick 1 would have still selected Morton...

Carlton as well as Richmond's need for a Quality Ruckman were parramount, hence that thought.

Cotchin will be a gun there is no doubting that. I have watch this kid since he was 9 and boy was it difficult to see us not selecting him... BUT i also watched Kreuzer grow from a young age and understood our position and need for a quality ruckman....

No club made the wrong choice... Both will be exceptional 200 game players for either club.

Cotchin will one day become an elite midfielder of the competition,

Kreuzer will one day become an elite ruckman/midfielder/forward of the competition....

Everyone wins...

I heard West Coast had Cotchin as their number 1. But yeah Richmond did name Kreuzer as their number 1 pick. Thank **** you guys tanked.

 

[qldbluesman_43]

This will be interesting to see in 5 years, because it's like saying would you prefer Dean Cox or a someone like Adam Cooney (I'm not saying Ablett/ Judd because everyone would pick them) at your club.

Right now at Carlton I'd say Cox because our midfield is already right up there. I'd say if you asked all clubs a majority would say Cox because quality ruckmen are extremely rare and although Cooney and Cotchin will be more celebrated players, the more valuable is probably Cox and this is why I'd say Carlton picked correctly.

 

[Top_4_Tiger]

Moving forward, a ruck division of Warnock & Kreuzer is better than a ruck division of Warnock & a project ruckman & a shorter, pinch-hitting ruckman.

Mediumsized, I hope you stand by this opinion if you decide to talk up Hampson in other threads.

This is not directed at you, but some days I hear he's one of the most promising young rucks of the competition, then others he's just "a project ruckman" because it suits your argument.

If you're calling Hampson just a project tall with an average chance of coming on, then be consistent with that point of view all pre-season please

This will be interesting to see in 5 years, because it's like saying would you prefer Dean Cox or a someone like Adam Cooney (I'm not saying Ablett/ Judd because everyone would pick them) at your club.

You either compare the best ruck with the best mid, or a near-best ruck with a near-best mid... NOT the best ruck to a near-best mid!

You have to tweak your arguments to make them seem valid LOL!

If you picked Cooney as the midfielder, then the only fair ruckman would be Fraser.

So would you pick Fraser or Cooney?

 

[mediumsizered]

Mediumsized, I hope you stand by this opinion if you decide to talk up Hampson in other threads.

This is not directed at you, but some days I hear he's one of the most promising young rucks of the competition, then others he's just "a project ruckman" because it suits your argument.

If you're calling Hampson just a project tall with an average chance of coming on, then be consistent with that point of view all pre-season please

I don't remember getting carried away about Hampson in any of my posts (I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong). The thing with Hampson is he has shown in the occasional piece of play that there is definitely something to work with, but generally he still has quite some way to go.

I have seen some Carlton supporters get a bit carried away about Hampson, while on the other hand I have seen some Carlton supporters indicate that they believe he is another 3-4 years away from being a quality ruckman. This latter school of thought reflects what I see with Hampson.

In the Round 21 game against Brisbane, I was surprised to see Kreuzer go into the ruck at the first bounce & Cloke head forward, with Hampson going to the bench. Kreuzer acquitted himself well against the strong body of Jamie Charman & demonstrated just how much he had already developed as an AFL ruckman. In contrast Hampson, who was in his second AFL season, looked a little bit lost & therefore didn't see a lot of ground time. That game, more than any other, demonstrated where our ruck stocks were at. Kreuzer had virtually already become our #1 ruckman, because Cloke is a pinch-hitter in the ruck & Hampson is still struggling to learn the caper. This, more than anything, reflected why the recruitment of Kreuzer & Warnock has been necessary & why we still would have recruited Kreuzer, even if our crystal ball had told us that Warnock would be joining Carlton 12 months later.

 

[The Cotch]

If Richmond had pick 1, they would've chosen Cotchin. I'd just like to clear that up.

 

[kreuze control]

If Richmond had pick 1, they would've chosen Cotchin. I'd just like to clear that up.

and essendon would have taken ryder....

 

[cormick]

Yeh Right.

I laughed

 

[The Cotch]

and essendon would have taken ryder....

I was just clarifying that to some people who may not be exactly sure........

 

[TheRedPill]

Mediumsized, I hope you stand by this opinion if you decide to talk up Hampson in other threads.

This is not directed at you, but some days I hear he's one of the most promising young rucks of the competition, then others he's just "a project ruckman" because it suits your argument.

If you're calling Hampson just a project tall with an average chance of coming on, then be consistent with that point of view all pre-season please



You either compare the best ruck with the best mid, or a near-best ruck with a near-best mid... NOT the best ruck to a near-best mid!

You have to tweak your arguments to make them seem valid LOL!

If you picked Cooney as the midfielder, then the only fair ruckman would be Fraser.

So would you pick Fraser or Cooney?

I don't know why people do these stupid "Well, to support Cotchin's case against Kreuzer, would you rather Fraser or Cooney?" hypotheticals, as though Cotchin's career will be exactly like Cooney's and Kreuzer's like Fraser's. They prove nothing.

You can use them insofar as to highlight things like team structure & balance (ie; How effective would the Carlton midfield be with Cox/without Judd) but in these situations they hold little weight. I know it wasn't you that brought it up, but nonetheless, they're pointless.

It's lucky that most BF posters who post pure shit scatter their posts with red herrings like absolute statements & broad generalisations so you can steer clear. These threads are perfect for it, "Matthew Kreuzer is going to be elite, he is far better than Cotchin" etc

 

[Rosstickle]

I don't know why people do these stupid "Well, to support Cotchin's case against Kreuzer, would you rather Fraser or Cooney?" hypotheticals, as though Cotchin's career will be exactly like Cooney's and Kreuzer's like Fraser's. They prove nothing.

You missed the point completely.

He was trying to say that your original argument was "who would you take out of the best ruckman or (for arguments sake) the 5th best midfielder".

A better argument would be "who would you rather: the best ruckman or the best mid"

Or the one he highlighted "who would you rather: the 5th best Ruckman or the 5th best Midfielder"

He was simply stating that Fraser would be a better comparison to Cooney as Fraser is one of the better ruckmen whereas Cooney is one of the better midfielders. Not the best compared to a very good. You either compare best v best or very good v very good.

 

[Top_4_Tiger]

If Richmond had pick 1, they would've chosen Cotchin. I'd just like to clear that up.

Can you clarify how you found this out (so Carlton supporters can trust what you say).

To everyone one else, Cotchin spent time at Punt Road at the start of 2007 so we knew him pretty well I'd say.

We also probably had the most accurate information regarding his true fitness since he didn't do draft camp.

There were rumours that he didn't have much of a tank, but as it's been highlighted after being drafted, he has the genetical potential to become one of the absolute fittest players at our club. We would have already known he had the body capable of building elite endurance with, can someone clarify whether other clubs had the same info we did on draft day?

I have heard several respectable posters say we would have taken Cotchin at 1 fwiw.

 

[TheRedPill]

You missed the point completely.

He was trying to say that your original argument was "who would you take out of the best ruckman or (for arguments sake) the 5th best midfielder".

A better argument would be "who would you rather: the best ruckman or the best mid"

Or the one he highlighted "who would you rather: the 5th best Ruckman or the 5th best Midfielder"

He was simply stating that Fraser would be a better comparison to Cooney as Fraser is one of the better ruckmen whereas Cooney is one of the better midfielders. Not the best compared to a very good. You either compare best v best or very good v very good.

I think you've missed the point completely.

"who would you take out of the best ruckman or (for arguments sake) the 5th best midfielder"

When on earth did I say anything to that effect?

 

[Top_4_Tiger]

I think you've missed the point completely.

"who would you take out of the best ruckman or (for arguments sake) the 5th best midfielder"

When on earth did I say anything to that effect?

When you compared Dean Cox (the best ruckman) with Adam Cooney (for arguments sake the 5th best midfielder)

Do you understand yet or should we wait another day?

 

[TheRedPill]

When you compared Dean Cox (the best ruckman) with Adam Cooney (for arguments sake the 5th best midfielder)

Do you understand yet or should we wait another day?

Wow, you must feel validated and intelligent, condescendingly belittling someone over the internet as you do. I particularly liked the last bit - "or should we wait another day?" - patronising, snide... fantastic really. Exactly the sort of conduct expected in a mature discussion. A legit BigFooty hero.

But unfortunately..... that is all dependent on a certain 'if'. 'If' I ever did compare Dean Cox to Adam Cooney. Now, as I asked before - when, exactly, was it that I made this alleged comparison?

 

[Kramer1]

You either compare best v best or very good v very good.

Pointless on two fronts.

The difference between very good and best is entirely arbitrary, and in case you haven't noticed is often in dispute on BF. It could be argued that Kruezer is clearly the best ruckman, whereas Cotchin is one of four or five very good mids from the draft.

Secondly, there is probably 10 good mids running around for every truly great ruckman in the competition.

 

[Top_4_Tiger]

Wow, you must feel validated and intelligent, condescendingly belittling someone over the internet as you do. I particularly liked the last bit - "or should we wait another day?" - patronising, snide... fantastic really. Exactly the sort of conduct expected in a mature discussion. A legit BigFooty hero.

But unfortunately..... that is all dependent on a certain 'if'. 'If' I ever did compare Dean Cox to Adam Cooney. Now, as I asked before - when, exactly, was it that I made this alleged comparison?

Hypocritical much?

I responded to you in exactly the manner you responded to the other guy. That's why I didn't treat you with respect.

The argument is about a Carlton supporter who compared Cox to Cooney in order to make Kreuzer look better than Cotchin. I pointed out that this was a completely unfair argument - it is the equilivent to a Richmond supporter saying "Who would you pick, Chris Judd or Troy Simmonds?"

Then you come in with your "that's stupid" as if you think we expect these players to turn out exactly like the hypotheticals.

And as you said later in that post, it is about team structure ("ie; How effective would the Carlton midfield be with Cox/without Judd).

You are arguing because you think everyone else is an idiot, but you've just assumed this, we are talking about team structure as in the exact sentence I quoted above about Judd/Cox.



This is where I see the problem:

If you pick Cox to represent Kreuzer, then you must pick Judd or Ablett to represent Cotchin.

If you pick Cooney to represent Cotchin, then you must pick someone like Dean Brogan to represent Kreuzer.

 

[TheRedPill]

Hypocritical much?

I responded to you in exactly the manner you responded to the other guy. That's why I didn't treat you with respect.

The argument is about a Carlton supporter who compared Cox to Cooney in order to make Kreuzer look better than Cotchin. I pointed out that this was a completely unfair argument - it is the equilivent to a Richmond supporter saying "Who would you pick, Chris Judd or Troy Simmonds?"

Then you come in with your "that's stupid" as if you think we expect these players to turn out exactly like the hypotheticals.

And as you said later in that post, it is about team structure ("ie; How effective would the Carlton midfield be with Cox/without Judd).

You are arguing because you think everyone else is an idiot, but you've just assumed this, we are talking about team structure as in the exact sentence I quoted above about Judd/Cox.



This is where I see the problem:

If you pick Cox to represent Kreuzer, then you must pick Judd or Ablett to represent Cotchin.

If you pick Cooney to represent Cotchin, then you must pick someone like Dean Brogan to represent Kreuzer.

Wait, wait, wait... so basically, what you're trying to say is, I never made the comparison?

 

[thecotch]

never ever compare kreuzer to fraser.

fraser is the weakest, softest, most heartless player in the comp.

kreuzer has a will and a desire to win that fraser couldn't even dream of. kreuzer puts his body on the line and puts in 4 or 5 efforts, lays smothers, tackles anythign just to win the ball. not to mention kreuzer can use his body to win the ball or take a big mark and he can kick like a midfielder off both feet.

kreuzer>>>>>>>>>>>>>daylight>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>cinderella>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..josh fraser

I can tell you Josh Fraser had just as big, if not bigger wrap on him as kruezer did when collingwood picked him at no 1. Eddie McGuire was having babies on the footy show when showing frasers' pre draft highlights.

I'd love another gun skillfull midfielder at pick 8 this year even though we seriously need another ruckman and tall forward.

 

[TigerGlory]

I'd love another gun skillfull midfielder at pick 8 this year even though we seriously need another ruckman and tall forward.

I think that solid key position players can still be found late in the draft. They dont have unneccesarry hype surrounding them, and they can be groomed at their own pace.

Midfielders are neccessarry to your team. Better to take the best ones at your first pick. Quality is everything.

 

[Top_4_Tiger]

Wait, wait, wait... so basically, what you're trying to say is, I never made the comparison?

We were talking about an unfair comparison, it doesn't matter who said it, it was an unfair comparison and I am sticking to my opinion.

I don't need to argue this crap. What a waste of time LOL.