VAR Thread

[Frank Bunn]

There's no could have been with semi automated offside. A sensor in the ball means the ball being played is known to the millisecond. Cameras track all players on the pitch. Their distance to the goal line is known as is their position compared to defenders.

Add up all this data and you get an accurate offside call. They can even tell if it come off a defender by the sniko.

Offside is a yes or no call. This was the right call.

Two different issues.

A decision could be correct but with the graphics we are shown there's a lack of transparency about the full picture of a crucial moment in the game.

The players don't have microchips in their toes. The data being fed from the cameras to the automated VAR has to be extrapolated and interpreted. So there needs to be a level of tolerance built into the system.

 

[SM]

There is a level of tolerance built into the system.

 

[moomba]

There is a level of tolerance built into the system.

Not much of one if the pictures are any guide.

 

[SM]

Not much of one if the pictures are any guide.

The tolerance will be sufficient to cover the margin of error. Just because the decision is quite close doesn't mean it's wrong.

 

[moomba]

The tolerance will be sufficient to cover the margin of error. Just because the decision is quite close doesn't mean it's wrong.

That was kind of my point. I don't doubt that his toenail was marginally ahead, I have trust in the automated system (definitely no trust in non automated).

But I think football needs to decide if an offside that close is an attempt to gain an unfair advantage, for me there would be a bigger tolerance.

 

[chef]

I guess you're offside or you're not. A toenail is still offside. Got to draw the line somewhere.

 

[SM]

I guess you're offside or you're not. A toenail is still offside. Got to draw the line somewhere.

Yep.

You have to draw the line somewhere. If you say the tolerance is, say, 10cm, then when you have someone offside because it's 9.8cm then it's going to still be just as egregious.

 

[moomba]

At some point the attacker is getting an unfair advantage. I'm not convinced a toenail is.

 

[SM]

But whatever point you draw that unfair advantage distinction at, half a centimetre either side of it will be seen as unreasonably strict.

 

[moomba]

But whatever point you draw that unfair advantage distinction at, half a centimetre either side of it will be seen as unreasonably strict.

I think we can agree to disagree on that. There has to be a line. Just a question of where that line is.

For some, a toenail is fine. I'd rather not see goals rules out for something that innocuous. Neither right or wrong, just different ways of looking at it.

 

[ossie_21]

It really should just go back to be how it used to be, clear gap between attacker & last defender is offside.

I mean, how bad would it be if a goal was ruled offside just because the attacker wears a size 13 boot and the defender wears a size 11?

 

[SM]

It really should just go back to be how it used to be, clear gap between attacker & last defender is offside.

I mean, how bad would it be if a goal was ruled offside just because the attacker wears a size 13 boot and the defender wears a size 11?

What do you define as a clear gap?

 

[99 Problems]

I’d keep the automated system exactly the same as it’s being used now, but move the line to work off the daylight rule. That would bring it more in line with what the intent of the offside law was, and you’d never really feel hard done by if you did have a goal pulled back no matter how tight the lines are.

No doubt last night was the right call, but it doesn’t feel like it’s good for the fans or the game to be ruling out goals like that.

 

[ossie_21]

What do you define as a clear gap?

Not to the extent of Wenger’s suggestion, but the previous rule of there being daylight between the players. Essentially means the one like last night and the long list of ones ruled out in the premier league over the last couple of years where the game is stopped for a few minutes whilst random lines are drawn and players are offside, wouldn’t be offside.

It’s not a “clear and obvious error” when the players are essentially level. When VAR was first announced, I thought it would mean the ones like the below would be a thing of the past - not goals being ruled out by a toenail or shoulder being at a different angle to a defender.



It’s just my preference on how it should be and it probably won’t go that way. It is tough and the rules have to be set somewhere, but I think everyone would be a lot happier if the checks are a hell of a lot quicker, and there is open communication for people inside and outside the ground to explain them.

 

[SM]

Not to the extent of Wenger’s suggestion, but the previous rule of there being daylight between the players. Essentially means the one like last night and the long list of ones ruled out in the premier league over the last couple of years where the game is stopped for a few minutes whilst random lines are drawn and players are offside, wouldn’t be offside.

It’s not a “clear and obvious error” when the players are essentially level. When VAR was first announced, I thought it would mean the ones like the below would be a thing of the past - not goals being ruled out by a toenail or shoulder being at a different angle to a defender.

View attachment 2035684

It’s just my preference on how it should be and it probably won’t go that way. It is tough and the rules have to be set somewhere, but I think everyone would be a lot happier if the checks are a hell of a lot quicker, and there is open communication for people inside and outside the ground to explain them.

I guess like above the point is there'd still be goals stopped for random lines because attackers would start further forward and there'd still be offsides called for fine margins.

 

[Frank Bunn]

There is a level of tolerance built into the system.

What are the details of the level of tolerance built into the system?

The Denmark manager was saying he had evidence his player was judged as 1 cm offside. Given that the cameras are not level with the last defender and players not having microchips in their toes that seems too tight.

 

[SM]

What are the details of the level of tolerance built into the system?

The Denmark manager was saying he had evidence his player was judged as 1 cm offside. Given that the cameras are not level with the last defender and players not having microchips in their toes that seems too tight.

I believe they have determined the frame rate in the cameras and have built in a tolerance that aligns with that.

 

[Zidane98]

What are the details of the level of tolerance built into the system?

The Denmark manager was saying he had evidence his player was judged as 1 cm offside. Given that the cameras are not level with the last defender and players not having microchips in their toes that seems too tight.

semi automated offside is highly accurate. It knows when the ball is played to the millisecond. Positioning of all players is known instantly too, multiple cameras track each player. It becomes simple to calculate from those parameters where a player is in relation to the goaline and the location of the ball. Think of it like goal line tech for offside. The only parameters it cannot calculate are wheter the player is active / inactive / involved with play. Those aspects still need a human to decide.


This is different to the vanilla VAR where only a few cameras are used to determine positioning of players. There are not multiple cameras tracking individual players and a VAR operator must draw the offside point for each player themselves.


You wouldn't want a goal denied for being 1cm over the line so this call was absolutely spot on.

 

[Frank Bunn]

semi automated offside is highly accurate. It knows when the ball is played to the millisecond. Positioning of all players is known instantly too, multiple cameras track each player. It becomes simple to calculate from those parameters where a player is in relation to the goaline and the location of the ball. Think of it like goal line tech for offside. The only parameters it cannot calculate are wheter the player is active / inactive / involved with play. Those aspects still need a human to decide.

This is different to the vanilla VAR where only a few cameras are used to determine positioning of players. There are not multiple cameras tracking individual players and a VAR operator must draw the offside point for each player themselves.

You wouldn't want a goal denied for being 1cm over the line so this call was absolutely spot on.

No technology is perfect and there is some manual intervention involved. And as Postecoglou has said, if all we are shown are these crappy graphics how do we know a decision is correct? For calls that could decide tournaments there needs to be transparency. We are not shown the last touch of the ball. And we don't see the other players on the field.

For example in the last world cup we were shown this graphic after Lautaro Martinez was ruled offside.



But it's possible Martinez was compared against the wrong defender.

 

[Zidane98]

No technology is perfect and there is some manual intervention involved. And as Postecoglou has said, if all we are shown are these crappy graphics how do we know a decision is correct? For calls that could decide tournaments there needs to be transparency. We are not shown the last touch of the ball. And we don't see the other players on the field.

For example in the last world cup we were shown this graphic after Lautaro Martinez was ruled offside.

View attachment 2036073

But it's possible Martinez was compared against the wrong defender.

View attachment 2036074

There is no drawing of the line with semi automatic offside.

With semi automatic offside is calculated by a computer from the following parameters:

• moment the ball is played. Highly accurate due to sensors in the ball
• distance to goal line of all players and the ball. Players are tracked by multiple cameras and again the ball had a sensor in it allowing for absolute calculation of its distance to the goal line.

Simply put the computer calculates an image from this. If there are not two or more opposition players between the attacking player and the goal line it automatically calls offside provided the attacking player is closer to the goal line than the ball is. You seem to think that replays are being used. They aren't to generate an image. They're only used to clarify inactive / active etc.

You can't argue with this. It is as reliable as goal line tech.

The only manual intervention is deciding on whether a player is inactive / active / interfering.

 

[Frank Bunn]

There is no drawing of the line with semi automatic offside.

With semi automatic offside is calculated by a computer from the following parameters:

• moment the ball is played. Highly accurate due to sensors in the ball
• distance to goal line of all players and the ball. Players are tracked by multiple cameras and again the ball had a sensor in it allowing for absolute calculation of its distance to the goal line.

Simply put the computer calculates an image from this. If there are not two or more opposition players between the attacking player and the goal line it automatically calls offside provided the attacking player is closer to the goal line than the ball is. You seem to think that replays are being used. They aren't to generate an image. They're only used to clarify inactive / active etc.

You can't argue with this. It is as reliable as goal line tech.

The only manual intervention is deciding on whether a player is inactive / active / interfering.

We are going round in circles because you are not addressing what I've said. How can we have confidence in semi automated offside decisions when all we get is a crappy graphic of two cartoon players?

I've given you an example where automated VAR might have got it wrong because it looked at the wrong defender.

What is the margin for error of the data being fed into the computer and its extrapolation? 1mm offside?

 

[Zidane98]

We are going round in circles because you are not addressing what I've said. How can we have confidence in semi automated offside decisions when all we get is a crappy graphic of two cartoon players?

I've given you an example where automated VAR might have got it wrong because it looked at the wrong defender.

What is the margin for error of the data being fed into the computer and its extrapolation? 1mm offside?

You're getting a computer generated image from the data required to calculate offside. It's not based off a replay.

As long as you have the exact position of all players and the ball in relation to the goal line plus absolute accuracy from a sensor inside the ball for when it is played you will always get the correct result for offside. It's similar to goal line tech and just as accurate.

This is the reason you don't see lines drawn on the screen by a VAR operator with semi automatic offside. It doesn't t

 

[SM]

We are going round in circles because you are not addressing what I've said. How can we have confidence in semi automated offside decisions when all we get is a crappy graphic of two cartoon players?

I've given you an example where automated VAR might have got it wrong because it looked at the wrong defender.

What is the margin for error of the data being fed into the computer and its extrapolation? 1mm offside?

Yeah when it comes to you all anyone does is go around in circles. This is on the same level as 'The violinist was CGI' or whatever your dumb argument was about that.

You can't seem to comprehend when someone explains something to you and just dig your heels in.

 

[Frank Bunn]

You're getting a computer generated image from the data required to calculate offside. It's not based off a replay.

As long as you have the exact position of all players and the ball in relation to the goal line plus absolute accuracy from a sensor inside the ball for when it is played you will always get the correct result for offside. It's similar to goal line tech and just as accurate.

This is the reason you don't see lines drawn on the screen by a VAR operator with semi automatic offside. It doesn't t

Again more going round in circles which doesn't address what I've said.

How can we have confidence in semi automated offside decisions when all we get is a crappy graphic of two cartoon players?

I've given you an example where automated VAR might have got it wrong because it looked at the wrong defender.

What is the margin for error of the data being fed into the computer and its extrapolation? 1mm offside?

 

[Zidane98]

Again more going round in circles which doesn't address what I've said.

How can we have confidence in semi automated offside decisions when all we get is a crappy graphic of two cartoon players?

I've given you an example where automated VAR might have got it wrong because it looked at the wrong defender.

What is the margin for error of the data being fed into the computer and its extrapolation? 1mm offside?

Data fed into the offside calculation is absolute. Distance of all players to goal line. Distance of ball to goal line. Exact moment when ball is played (sensor in ball). This system doesn't use a replay to decide offside at all. This is all that is needed to determine offside with certainty. Human intervention only needed when deciding active / inactive / interfering with play etc.

This system is as accurate as goal line tech.

In the example you provide it was absolutely correct as semi auto offside had the distance to the goal line of all defenders and the attacking player. There's no might have been with this system - the attacking player was closer to the goal line than 1 or less opposition players.