WADA to appeal AFL Tribunal's Essendon ruling

[Lance Uppercut]

We don't know how much was in each vial though. Could have been one dose, could have been 10.

we don't know. But that's something WADA will need to establish to a very high level of satisfaction. If the crux of their evidence is dosage schedules this kind of information is crucial.

Ask yourself, why did ASADA go to the effort of interviewing Alavi 6 times, to finally get the "mystery shipment" to feel confident enough to proceed?

They will struggle big time here for mine

 

[Lance Uppercut]

I think the answer lies in how they consider the evidence.

I have not seen the ruling from the AFL tribunal and can only comment based on the snippets we get from the media, ie. Whately's comments the other night on 360 that the tribunal did not even consider the question of what the players injected, they had already decided it cannot be proved that TB4 was at the club so they didn't even get to consider the injections.

It seems that the AFL tribunal considered the evidence in a linear manner, applying the comfortable satisfaction requirement for each step of that chain until it fell down and then dismissed the rest. ie.

• Was TB4 ordered - yes
• Was TB4 delivered - yes
• Was it TB4 in the vials compounded by Alavi and delivered to Dank - not sure, there are no test records, no paper work, ok we are done here. Not guilty.

However, if CAS consider that same evidence in a more holistic way, ie, we cannot be 100% certain it was TB4 in the vials buts lets keep going with the next batch of evidence (consent forms, dosing instructions, player admission of receiving Tymosin injections, lack of credible alternative, etc.) and based on all of the available evidence, sure we cannot be certain what happened between China and Essendon but we are certain of what their intension was so we are comfortably satisfied it was TB4 - we are done here. Guilty.

I think all of us are pretty much satisfied as to what it was based on the publically available stuff. My best guess is that the AFL process was designed to get the outcome they wanted and the CAS process will be very different.

saying "we are done here - guilty" is just not right. Yes a more holistic approach can be considered, but you can't just completely discount evidence chain missing links. It may be an approach that works, sure, but let's not pretend even if they take that approach it's automatically game over.

A very good example of why now the early crow is on the other foot, to horribly mash metaphors

 

[jenny61_99]

Lance Uppercut Did you see the article this morning that had a quote from a CAS clerk that said they could subpoena?

 

[Iskender Time]

Can anyone explain to me the prevailing attitude in here that WADA are going to win this appeal? I don't get it. People are acting as though this is now a done deal. Posters who disappeared completely on March 31 reappeared as if by magic, and now it seems to be generally accepted that the result is going to be over-turned. I don't get it, anyone care to explain?

I don't think it's a done deal. It does give hope that I won't have to see Hirds face watching AFL and the Bombers fans who were gloating about getting away with doping will get theirs. It means hope that justice will be served.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

I guess in this case the testimonies have been recorded, a lot harder to deny something if the recording is played in front of you.

testimonies they will probably allege that were either manipulated or asked to be manipulated

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Lance Uppercut Did you see the article this morning that had a quote from a CAS clerk that said they could subpoena?

I sure did. I still don't believe they can, most likely.

She still referred to local courts. John Coates couldn't confirm they could. I chalked it up as a fairly significant tick in the "may be able to subpoena box" but for mine it's still outweighed by the other side.

I'd like to hear from someone other than a clerk, with a more detailed reasoning

 

[Chameleon75]

testimonies they will probably allege that were either manipulated or asked to be manipulated

no doubt they will, but it's hard to allege manipulation when the recording is there

 

[Lance Uppercut]

no doubt they will, but it's hard to allege manipulation when the recording is there

true enough.

But I believe the same factors that caused the AFL tribunal to discount much of their evidence as unreliable will be compelling to CAS too. Things like import labels and analysis certificates being removed.

 

[blue harvest]

what about if there's not enough Thymosin to go around according to the dosage schedule for tb4?

But they don't know how much 'thymosin' there was. Chances are there was a truck load of the stuff.

 

[hoianbulldog]

Can anyone explain to me the prevailing attitude in here that WADA are going to win this appeal? I don't get it. People are acting as though this is now a done deal. Posters who disappeared completely on March 31 reappeared as if by magic, and now it seems to be generally accepted that the result is going to be over-turned. I don't get it, anyone care to explain?

As I understand it the afl tribunal weren't comfortably satisfied that tb4 was the substance that was handled by the charter, dank and Alavi triangle of potion mixers. The basis for this was that the substance was never tested by them to confirm it was what they thought.
This is despite charter ordering tb4 for dank. Bio-chem shipping tb4 as ordered. Charter handing the tb4 to dank who then sent to Alavi. With all that the afl's tribunal were not comfortably satisfied that is was tb4. Seriously you couldn't make this shit up.

I don't think the CAS will be as lenient when deciding what the substance actually was. (Call it a vibe if you like but shit it wouldn't be hard for them to conclude it was tb4 - looks like duck, quacks like duck then it's a frkn duck). From there you have he injection regime of thymowhatsit and even the afl tribunal were satisfied it wasn't thymomodulin.

I think that may have something to do with why a few here think that this may go wada's way.

 

[Jack Gun Cyril Stun]

Can anyone explain to me the prevailing attitude in here that WADA are going to win this appeal? I don't get it. People are acting as though this is now a done deal. Posters who disappeared completely on March 31 reappeared as if by magic, and now it seems to be generally accepted that the result is going to be over-turned. I don't get it, anyone care to explain?

Reverse would seem to be true as well, excepting you, Mxett and a couple other bombers...Not sure everyone thinks WADA will win, maybe majority do, i think a lot just want some better answers / closure and hope WADA can do that..

 

[TerryWallet]

what about if there's not enough Thymosin to go around according to the dosage schedule for tb4?

Then Robbo's Dirty Dozen are in a lot of trouble....and the split in the Club becomes an enormous gorge.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

But they don't know how much 'thymosin' there was. Chances are there was a truck load of the stuff.

who doesn't know?

I can tell you this: if WADA don't know or can't definitively find out then they may as well not even turn up.

 

[fabulousphil]

Better than asada/wada unaccountable endless farce
Remember these clowns weren't sure of aod9604 for 2 years
I don't think they are quite sure now
Then they ran a joint investigation with the afl? Why?
Told essendon it would all be fine
Leaked information to media
Changed key staff mid stream
Lost evidence it seems
The fact they have lumped all 34 players into a single basket is indicative of total incompetence

Finally, after everything we know the single most important figure in this whole saga james hird is not even their target

Surely they have authority to demand his suspension for a 4 year term and if they don't or can't then the entire system is farcical

Absent this stupid beuracratic regime an afl system would have suspended hird from coaching immediately, ditto dank and the weapon for 2-4 years and spared us all this interminable nonsense

The cronulla 3 game player suspension is a bigger joke and yet the same peanuts who cheer for the current regime conveniently ignore it and pretend that God almighty is now running CAS

The afl was blind sighted by this
All the clubs were
What we don't need is this incompetent international regime which repeatedly fails to laud it over us

Even the Armstrong victory is an embarrassing example of total failure
Armstrong won 7 tours retired, returned and only then they cobbled together a case against him
That's some 10 years!!!

In this instance essendon stopped what it started quick smart

There is too much schedenfrued going on here
Quiet frankly it stinks
And the sentiments on facebook are entirely appropriate

decent post

 

[QuietB]

saying "we are done here - guilty" is just not right. Yes a more holistic approach can be considered, but you can't just completely discount evidence chain missing links. It may be an approach that works, sure, but let's not pretend even if they take that approach it's automatically game over.

A very good example of why now the early crow is on the other foot, to horribly mash metaphors

Agree, it is not game over at all.

But one "tribunal" was looking for one outcome, and the next court will be looking for an entirely different outcome.

It is all about how you frame the questions, the process and emphasis.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

As I understand it the afl tribunal weren't comfortably satisfied that tb4 was the substance that was handled by the charter, dank and Alavi triangle of potion mixers. The basis for this was that the substance was never tested by them to confirm it was what they thought.
This is despite charter ordering tb4 for dank. Bio-chem shipping tb4 as ordered. Charter handing the tb4 to dank who then sent to Alavi. With all that the afl's tribunal were not comfortably satisfied that is was tb4. Seriously you couldn't make this shit up.

I don't think the CAS will be as lenient when deciding what the substance actually was. (Call it a vibe if you like but shit it wouldn't be hard for them to conclude it was tb4 - looks like duck, quacks like duck then it's a frkn duck). From there you have he injection regime of thymowhatsit and even the afl tribunal were satisfied it wasn't thymomodulin.

I think that may have something to do with why a few here think that this may go wada's way.

Chip reports today why the tribunal thought the way they did. WADA, like ASADA, carry the burden of proof.



The tribunal, once confronted with the murky, loosely regulated world of peptide dealing, Dank’s ineptitude as a sports scientist and the contradictory accounts of the two other elusive figures at the centre of this scandal — Shane Charter and Nima Alavi — decided to accept little at face value. In particular, anything said by Dank, whether to players, journalists, other club officials or private clients, was given little weight in the absence of corroboration.

Doubting whether a substance marked Hexarelin is in fact Hexarelin may seem overly sceptical but not once you learn that it has been imported from China with the original labels and certificate of analysis deliberately removed, and provided to Dank without any reliable documentation or analytical testing.

 

[fabulousphil]

Perhaps WADA can offer future employment to it's witnesses like ASADA did for testimony that favours it.

After all they offered Charters potential employment in the NRL teaching blokes about drugs.

 

[TheArchivist]

but morgs, folks lie everyday before court, usually the common response is "i dont recall". no one is held in contempt, not one goes to jail. unless you are a serial offender who holds the court in contempt like darren hinch. the threat of jail is a damoclesian sword less excalibur more plastic kids jedi lightsabre

Too true. We all know LA still won't admit to that hospital room conversation and or that he committed perjury when he lied about it under oath. Statute of Limitations, and all.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Then Robbo's Dirty Dozen are in a lot of trouble....and the split in the Club becomes an enormous gorge.

haha, maybe, but doubtful. Remember, WADA have just requested that every one of 34 players gets a doping violation.

You get a doping violation, and you get a doping violation, everyone gets a doping violation!

 

[4#Didak#4]

Its an interesting conundrum.

To find them guilty you need evidence.
When the evidence has been lost/destroyed it suggests guilt.

I think its easy to presume guilt and that presumption for me comes primarily from the actions of the Essendon Football Club. It is inconceivable they did not have any records. And if they truly jabbed players thousands of times with unknown unrecorded substances then then this is a far greater crime than a questionable performance enhancing drug. However, they claim that there were records but that they have been "lost" but assure us that it was all OK and above board...trust me. I used this defence many times at school and it didn't work out as well as it seems to have here.

Are we stupid enough to believe that the club was in fact this negligent. I think there is a good chance that this negligence was manufactured in the interest of saving the players and that makes perfect sense.

I think it has been demonstrated & proved via witness statements that the offending substance was purchased, manufactured & supplied to Dank who was the number one man in charge. However, I don't see how WADA can prove individual guilt. I agree With WADA/ASADA that the balance of probabilities suggest that they did indeed take the offending substance, however you still cannot prove it without doubt of who got what - if it was one player involved then you perhaps could. I don't think the players should or could be prosecuted on the evidence available.

At the end of the day whoever hit the delete key or operated the shredding machine Watergate style is the hero for the players, its a key document that will cripple any prosecution. The only way WADA can win is to have Dank testify to what he did or recover that document.....so why are they appealing?

Perhaps they are simply testing the financial limit of an organisation that they see has corrupted the process. Appealing is a penalty to Essendon in itself. WADA has deeper pockets than ASADA and maybe they are just helping little bro out. Maybe they think if they keep shaking the tree the evidence will fall out. Perhaps they have done a deal with Dank regarding pending penalties coming from ASADA. Would Dank roll over for his own self interest?

 

[Jobe Watson]

People stated their concerns about the independence of the tribunal after seeing the ridiculous logic they used regarding the TB4 chain. I don't think anyone expected such mind blowing reasoning from the panel. It's nothing to do with things going 'your' way, it's about truth and justice.

So no, no mention of how corrupt the tribunal could be until they found essendon not guilty.

 

[Jack Gun Cyril Stun]

On march 31,the board seemed to fill up with efc poster's claiming innocence and doing the normal football brag.
Probably the nature of tribal sport's brings out the "you beauty" element.
Thought that was obvious to you.
Maybe you're hoping to hook a fish with your post.
But in true style its nothing but tribal allegiances.

And why are most people here ? Theatre, drama - about good guys (your team which most people actually have nought to do with) vs the bad guys (everyone else)...there is no game day for all this be sorted out, so after the AFL tribunal seemed to throw up more questions than answers and from that one mob yells victory..blah blah on it goes

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Its an interesting conundrum.

To find them guilty you need evidence.
When the evidence has been lost/destroyed it suggests guilt.

I think its easy to presume guilt and that presumption for me comes primarily from the actions of the Essendon Football Club. It is inconceivable they did not have any records. And if they truly jabbed players thousands of times with unknown unrecorded substances then then this is a far greater crime than a questionable performance enhancing drug. However, they claim that there were records but that they have been "lost" but assure us that it was all OK and above board...trust me. I used this defence many times at school and it didn't work out as well as it seems to have here.

Are we stupid enough to believe that the club was in fact this negligent. I think there is a good chance that this negligence was manufactured in the interest of saving the players and that makes perfect sense.

I think it has been demonstrated & proved via witness statements that the offending substance was purchased, manufactured & supplied to Dank who was the number one man in charge. However, I don't see how WADA can prove individual guilt. I agree With WADA/ASADA that the balance of probabilities suggest that they did indeed take the offending substance, however you still cannot prove it without doubt of who got what - if it was one player involved then you perhaps could. I don't think the players should or could be prosecuted on the evidence available.

At the end of the day whoever hit the delete key or operated the shredding machine Watergate style is the hero for the players, its a key document that will cripple any prosecution. The only way WADA can win is to have Dank testify to what he did or recover that document.....so why are they appealing?

Perhaps they are simply testing the financial limit of an organisation that they see has corrupted the process. Appealing is a penalty to Essendon in itself. WADA has deeper pockets than ASADA and maybe they are just helping little bro out. Maybe they think if they keep shaking the tree the evidence will fall out. Perhaps they have done a deal with Dank regarding pending penalties coming from ASADA. Would Dank roll over for his own self interest?

I dunno how much sense the whole shredded records argument makes when you examine it objectively.

I mean, you are asking us to believe that the same people who were so inept have somehow pulled off some kind of miracle of record deletion that even pulls the wool over the eyes forensic investigators at Deloitte?

Please...

 

[blue harvest]

who doesn't know?

I can tell you this: if WADA don't know or can't definitively find out then they may as well not even turn up.

Nobody knows, it was black ops.
You don't need to account for every ounce of the substance.

 

[Chameleon75]

true enough.

But I believe the same factors that caused the AFL tribunal to discount much of their evidence as unreliable will be compelling to CAS too. Things like import labels and analysis certificates being removed.

I agree with that, appearing at cas doesn't make them anymore credible than before, justs puts them in a bind because if they say they lied to a government investigator they open themselves up to possible prosecution.

for me the subpoena issue is critical, not so much in getting them to appear but the second objective of the subpoena was to have dank, charter and alvi open up their books