WADA to appeal AFL Tribunal's Essendon ruling

[Lance Uppercut]

Nobody knows, it was black ops.
You don't need to account for every ounce of the substance.

what? Of course you do. If you want to prove someone had something you need to prove that something even exists.

http://www.centrostudisport.it/PDF/TAS_CAS_ULTIMO/64.pdf

Read 195 - 202 and come back to me.

The idea that you can allege players got a substance, but you can't prove they ever had the substance because you can't even prove how much there was is laughable. Sorry.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

I agree with that, appearing at cas doesn't make them anymore credible than before, justs puts them in a bind because if they say they lied to a government investigator they open themselves up to possible prosecution.

for me the subpoena issue is critical, not so much in getting them to appear but the second objective of the subpoena was to have dank, charter and alvi open up their books

nail head.

I said it yesterday on the Essendon board. The subpoena issue is not around their testimony, it's around the records they could potentially access. That's where the real value comes to WADA. No doubt.

 

[4#Didak#4]

I dunno how much sense the whole shredded records argument makes when you examine it objectively.

I mean, you are asking us to believe that the same people who were so inept have somehow pulled off some kind of miracle of record deletion that even pulls the wool over the eyes forensic investigators at Deloitte?

Please...

No what I am saying is they weren't as inept as they are making out to be. Besides, its not that hard to make things disappear, especially when you have time to do so.

 

[TerryWallet]

haha, maybe, but doubtful. Remember, WADA have just requested that every one of 34 players gets a doping violation.

You get a doping violation, and you get a doping violation, everyone gets a doping violation!

I've never been convinced ALL 34 are in the same boat. Testimony is very important without a positive test.

If they find that the thymosin was TB-4, then everyone who signed for Thymosin AND admitted to recieving a form of Thymosin is in deep doodoo.

They may get all 34, but Robbo's Dirty Dozen have ALWAYS been the ones in most danger.

 

[TheArchivist]

haha, maybe, but doubtful. Remember, WADA have just requested that every one of 34 players gets a doping violation.

You get a doping violation, and you get a doping violation, everyone gets a doping violation!

Is it not possible that 34 players can be convicted of attempted use? Afterall, the violation is termed 'use or attempted use'.

Use or attempted use by an athlete of a prohibited substance or prohibited method.
In addition to testing athletes, we have the power to investigate the possible use of prohibited substances, drugs, medications or methods in conjunction with the Australian Federal Police and Australian Customs and Border Protection Service. An athlete does not have to have succeeded in using a prohibited substance or method – if there is sufficient evidence that the athlete has attempted to use a prohibited substance or method, they can be sanctioned. It is the athlete’s responsibility to ensure that no prohibited substance, drug or medication enters his or her body. Not knowing that they have taken something is not an excuse under the Code.

If they all signed consent forms for 'thymosin', and it's established that 'thymosin' was, and always was intended to be TB4, then there are precedents that it doesn't actually matter whether or not the substance entered their body. They signed up to be doped with an illegal substance. Attempted use.

 

[BlueWorld]

Hird was trying to get an investigation that has subsequently been proven as being filled with spotty and inconclusive evidence thrown out to protect his players from months of stress.

And here good guy WADA are, trying to continue with said spotty investigation, wasting time and resources on something which 3 independent judges have already found to be not good enough. Good luck to em.

Their lack of independence is one of the reasons WADA are taking it to a truly independent court. If they considered it a waste of time and resources they wouldn't bother.

 

[jenny61_99]

I dunno how much sense the whole shredded records argument makes when you examine it objectively.

I mean, you are asking us to believe that the same people who were so inept have somehow pulled off some kind of miracle of record deletion that even pulls the wool over the eyes forensic investigators at Deloitte?

Please...

The same people that called the supplement program "black ops". The same people that removed labels, forged signatures. The same people that chose to use the term "amino acids" when referring to the different peptides they were using rather than the actual name of the substance. The same people that looked at giving players a drug prescribed to another person. The same people that have been charged with importing steroids and other banned drugs? Those same people?

 

[Jobe Watson]

what? Of course you do. If you want to prove someone had something you need to prove that something even exists.

http://www.centrostudisport.it/PDF/TAS_CAS_ULTIMO/64.pdf

Read 195 - 202 and come back to me.

The idea that you can allege players got a substance, but you can't prove they ever had the substance because you can't even prove how much there was is laughable. Sorry.

What's interesting is that mcdevitt said we don't know what these players were injected with, yet have handballed off a case where they must prove use of TB4 to a comfortable satisfaction.

If the investigators publicly say they don't know what was injected, then how is a tribunal supposed to know? How can a tribunal suspended players for TB4 use when the investigstors don't even know whether it was injected? The onus of proof is on WADA here.

 

[Jack Gun Cyril Stun]

Its an interesting conundrum.

To find them guilty you need evidence.
When the evidence has been lost/destroyed it suggests guilt.

I think its easy to presume guilt and that presumption for me comes primarily from the actions of the Essendon Football Club. It is inconceivable they did not have any records. And if they truly jabbed players thousands of times with unknown unrecorded substances then then this is a far greater crime than a questionable performance enhancing drug. However, they claim that there were records but that they have been "lost" but assure us that it was all OK and above board...trust me. I used this defence many times at school and it didn't work out as well as it seems to have here.

Are we stupid enough to believe that the club was in fact this negligent. I think there is a good chance that this negligence was manufactured in the interest of saving the players and that makes perfect sense.

I think it has been demonstrated & proved via witness statements that the offending substance was purchased, manufactured & supplied to Dank who was the number one man in charge. However, I don't see how WADA can prove individual guilt. I agree With WADA/ASADA that the balance of probabilities suggest that they did indeed take the offending substance, however you still cannot prove it without doubt of who got what - if it was one player involved then you perhaps could. I don't think the players should or could be prosecuted on the evidence available.

At the end of the day whoever hit the delete key or operated the shredding machine Watergate style is the hero for the players, its a key document that will cripple any prosecution. The only way WADA can win is to have Dank testify to what he did or recover that document.....so why are they appealing?

Perhaps they are simply testing the financial limit of an organisation that they see has corrupted the process. Appealing is a penalty to Essendon in itself. WADA has deeper pockets than ASADA and maybe they are just helping little bro out. Maybe they think if they keep shaking the tree the evidence will fall out. Perhaps they have done a deal with Dank regarding pending penalties coming from ASADA. Would Dank roll over for his own self interest?

Great summation, imho dont think Dank will get involved but still a way to go, more twists to come

 

[BlueWorld]

The "truth" that ASADA presented after a year and a half of investigative work was not enough to convince 3 independent panel members that Essendon players were given banned substances.

What truth are WADA hoping to uncover? That maybe at this late stage something will come out to change the verdict from completely and utterly unanimously decided that the supply chain broke down at basically the first step, to 2 year bans for players who are now found to have defiantly consumed banned substances? Or are they, like Hird, hoping new judges will have a different opinion of the same evidence?

Most people agree that nothing would have convinced these panel members. lance Armstrong would not have been found guilty. That's why WADA have asked for an appropriate standard of proof this time.

 

[fabulousphil]

What's interesting is that mcdevitt said we don't know what these players were injected with, yet have handballed off a case where they must prove use of TB4 to a comfortable satisfaction.

If the investigators publicly say they don't know what was injected, then how is a tribunal supposed to know? How can a tribunal suspended players for TB4 use when the investigstors don't even know whether it was injected? The onus of proof is on WADA here.

Obviously hoping the CAS " independent " tribunual is not as "independent" as it could be.

 

[LoungeLizard]

What's interesting is that mcdevitt said we don't know what these players were injected with, yet have handballed off a case where they must prove use of TB4 to a comfortable satisfaction.

If the investigators publicly say they don't know what was injected, then how is a tribunal supposed to know? How can a tribunal suspended players for TB4 use when the investigstors don't even know whether it was injected? The onus of proof is on WADA here.

So you read not enough evidence to convince us then stopped reading?
If the tribunal didn't even go there, then how could anyone know what they were given, shit the players don't even know

 

[Jobe Watson]

Most people agree that nothing would have convinced these panel members. lance Armstrong would not have been found guilty. That's why WADA have asked for an appropriate standard of proof this time.

Where is this coming from? Foamer knowledge?

You haven't seen the full findings so how can you know whether the burden of proof they applied was too high or not?

 

[threesixpio]

Obviously hoping the CAS " independent " tribunual is not as "independent" as it could be.

What would you prefer the process to be?

 

[BlueWorld]

Also what was Hird trying to suppress? Considering the independent tribunal found no evidence that banned substances were given to our players (just as he said all along) and Hird is yet to receive a ban of any kind, what damaging evidence that would destroy essendon didn't Hird want to be released!

Exactly. Fancy wasting all that money to suppress non existent evidence.

 

[blue harvest]

So no, no mention of how corrupt the tribunal could be until they found essendon not guilty.

No, no mention of how corrupt the tribunal could be until they saw the mind blowing logic in their findings, pretty sure a lot of Essendon people are also worried about the corrupt logic that was applied.

 

[blackcat]

haha, maybe, but doubtful. Remember, WADA have just requested that every one of 34 players gets a doping violation.

You get a doping violation, and you get a doping violation, everyone gets a doping violation!

but it was 6mnth to 24 mnth

prisoner dilemma now in play

 

[BlueWorld]

Im shattered the poster you mentioned has disspeared quicker than a thymo reciept. He was exceptionally lippy as it got closer to the date, but alas he has lost his way and seems confined to the Kool Aid Kloset....

Obviously can't face the music after embarrassing himself with his cockiness that WADA would not appeal.

 

[imperial_oz]

haha, maybe, but doubtful. Remember, WADA have just requested that every one of 34 players gets a doping violation.

You get a doping violation, and you get a doping violation, everyone gets a doping violation!

Sharing the love?

Actually it may not work out that way. Assuming (big assumption) that CAS is comfortably satisfied that it was TB4 that was used, then it may be that only those who admitted in their interviews that they were given 'thymosin' will get sanctioned. Thats probably unlikely but possible.

I'm also not sure what role, if any, 'attempted use' might play in all of this. If CAS treats the consent forms a evidence of attempted use the sanctions may be widespread....or, of course, they may find the chain breaks down at demonstrating actual TB4. Who really knows?

 

[Armchair Critic]

testimonies they will probably allege that were either manipulated or asked to be manipulated

A video transcript of the interview is part of the brief of evidence. Good luck stating they manipulated it

 

[Jobe Watson]

Exactly. Fancy wasting all that money to suppress non existent evidence.

Yeah fancy spending your own money (not like asada who wasted your money in their desperate subpoena bid) to ensure the players are actually able to enjoy a full preseason and not have the weight of the world on their shoulders heading into the full season.

 

[fabulousphil]

What would you prefer the process to be?

over, when ASADA was laughed out last time

apparently there can be another appeal after this

the whole process is a shambolic scapegoating of the worst kind.

 

[threesixpio]

So you read not enough evidence to convince us then stopped reading?
If the tribunal didn't even go there, then how could anyone know what they were given, shit the players don't even know

Yeah - I agree on this. There might be very good evidence that whatever was purchased by Charter found its way to specific players. The tribunal didn't even consider this question. Sheesh... Even Gerard Whatley made that point...not a hard point to understand. That said I also agree with Lance that we shouldn't get too excited (on either side of the ledger). We now have pretty decent info to debate the supply chain - not sure we have enough info in the public domain to consider injections into individuals. But again...those pesky consents... and pesky Thymo texts. If CAS get beyond stages 1 and 2 we will finally get an answer to the rest of the saga

 

[Jobe Watson]

No, no mention of how corrupt the tribunal could be until they saw the mind blowing logic in their findings, pretty sure a lot of Essendon people are also worried about the corrupt logic that was applied.

Link to the full findings document please?

 

[threesixpio]

over, when ASADA was laughed out last time

apparently there can be another appeal after this

the whole process is a shambolic scapegoating of the worst kind.

If the players were found guilty and there was no right of appeal would that have pleased you?