Current WAR CRIMES Israel - Hamas Conflict

[Zidane98]

They might if Hamas are disbanded as part of the deal, but they just went to war after October 7th to increase the security of Israel, not decrease it. They would want a bunch of security concessions on top of it.

Agree and Hamas with total power in Gaza is not an acceptable post war outcome.

 

[faible]

Remove the conditions that lead to the arising of groups like Hamas - and particularly their ability to recruit disenfranchised people to their cause - and it'll go a long way to improving the security of Israel.

 

[Jazny]

Remove the conditions that lead to the arising of groups like Hamas - and particularly their ability to recruit disenfranchised people to their cause - and it'll go a long way to improving the security of Israel.

How can you remove those conditions without first removing Hamas?

 

[Zidane98]

Remove the conditions that lead to the arising of groups like Hamas - and particularly their ability to recruit disenfranchised people to their cause - and it'll go a long way to improving the security of Israel.

This totally ignores the fact that Hamas attacked and murdered Palestinians from Fatah to take complete control over Gaza. Post Israel withdrawal of Gaza there was no total blockade until Hamas chased out / attacked any Palestinians who weren't onboard with their ideology. In this instance Israel forcibly evicted Jewish residents of Gaza, some of whom had been living there for generations.


Hamas in its current iteration wants total control of Gaza for its own personal gain. That's clear. Just look at the leaders of Hamas and the lifestyles they live, all off the back of misery and death in Gaza. This isn't caused by Israel but rather by their backers Iran who openly declare their desire to kill Jews / destroy Israel. Remembering they were actually voted in at the time.

Either Gaza has a properly functioning government with multiple parties with checks and balances or it is governed together with West Bank as a whole.

Hamas (Iran) exercising absolute control and power over Gaza simply cannot happen again if there ever is going to be a chance of peace. If they are serious about peace for Palestinians going forward they will accept governance from the Arab League / UN until such a time that proper Palestine wide elections can take place.

 

[faible]

How can you remove those conditions without first removing Hamas?

The occupation began before Hamas existed. So I'd say removing Hamas is no guarantee of the occupation ending.

 

[Jazny]

The occupation began before Hamas existed. So I'd say removing Hamas is no guarantee of the occupation ending.

True, you need leadership in the region to recognise Israel and renounce constant terrorism against Israel too. It's the only solution for peace, otherwise wars and security blockades will continue forever.

 

[faible]

This totally ignores the fact that Hamas attacked and murdered Palestinians from Fatah to take complete control over Gaza. Post Israel withdrawal of Gaza there was no total blockade until Hamas chased out / attacked any Palestinians who weren't onboard with their ideology. In this instance Israel forcibly evicted Jewish residents of Gaza, some of whom had been living there for generations.


Hamas in its current iteration wants total control of Gaza for its own personal gain. That's clear. Just look at the leaders of Hamas and the lifestyles they live, all off the back of misery and death in Gaza. This isn't caused by Israel but rather by their backers Iran who openly declare their desire to kill Jews / destroy Israel. Remembering they were actually voted in at the time.

Either Gaza has a properly functioning government with multiple parties with checks and balances or it is governed together with West Bank as a whole.

Hamas (Iran) exercising absolute control and power over Gaza simply cannot happen again if there ever is going to be a chance of peace. If they are serious about peace for Palestinians going forward they will accept governance from the Arab League / UN until such a time that proper Palestine wide elections can take place.

The conditions exist for groups like Hamas to rise up and recruit. Say they remove Hamas but Gaza remains under occupation and the Palestinians remain stateless. It's only a matter of time before the next armed insurgency group appears.

Remove those conditions, and it's far harder for those groups to grow and recruit, irrespective of what Iran wants.

 

[faible]

True, you need leadership in the region to recognise Israel and renounce constant terrorism against Israel too. It's the only solution for peace, otherwise wars and security blockades will continue forever.

We end up right back here;

Remove the conditions that lead to the arising of groups like Hamas - and particularly their ability to recruit disenfranchised people to their cause - and it'll go a long way to improving the security of Israel.

 

[Zidane98]

The conditions exist for groups like Hamas to rise up and recruit. Say they remove Hamas but Gaza remains under occupation and the Palestinians remain stateless. It's only a matter of time before the next armed insurgency group appears.

Remove those conditions, and it's far harder for those groups to grow and recruit, irrespective of what Iran wants.

Conditions like Israel withdrawing fully from Gaza? This saw Hamas win an election, take over and attack anyone who opposed them.


Obviously Hamas isn't going to disappear overnight but for security & peace post war it is absolutely clear they cannot govern Gaza as a dictatorship for their own personal gain. Letting them continue as before is exactly the conditions that allow them to grow and recruit. They've got the Gazan economy to themselves, they can effectively hold the entire population hostage.

Let them run in a future Palestinian election for the entire state of Palestine. If they want the best for Palestinians I am sure they'll receive the appropriate amount of votes.


Until such a time Hamas need to let the Arab community in general govern / rebuild Gaza for the benefit of all Gazan citizens.

 

[ZEV]

Yes but his court case for assault / kidnapping isn't relevant here.

You don't feel it's of forum interest that a Victorian Hamas supporter is in the Magistrates court for kidnapping and assault charges related to Pro-Palestinian protests?

Or that his calls for death to America and for armed resistance in Australia are currently being reviewed by the AFP?

Or that his co-accused, Laura Allam, was involved in “allegedly helping Palestinians settle in Australia.”, who are now blocked from entering?

 

[DapperDon]

They might if Hamas are disbanded as part of the deal, but they just went to war after October 7th to increase the security of Israel, not decrease it. They would want a bunch of security concessions on top of it.

Even if Hamas as a name is disbanded, there is nothing stopping the actual leaders being voted in through a legitimate election. Hopefully that wouldn't occur but nothing stopping it.

 

[Zidane98]

You don't feel it's of forum interest that a Victorian Hamas supporter is in the Magistrates court for kidnapping and assault charges related to Pro-Palestinian protests?

Or that his calls for death to America and for armed resistance in Australia are currently being reviewed by the AFP?

Or that his co-accused, Laura Allam, was involved in “allegedly helping Palestinians settle in Australia.”, who are now blocked from entering?

No, such a person's court case for assault / kidnapping is not relevant in terms of the Hamas - Israel war.


There's nothing wrong with anyone helping someone settle in Australia either to escape the ravages of war either.

 

[DapperDon]

You don't feel it's of forum interest that a Victorian Hamas supporter is in the Magistrates court for kidnapping and assault charges related to Pro-Palestinian protests?

Or that his calls for death to America and for armed resistance in Australia are currently being reviewed by the AFP?

Or that his co-accused, Laura Allam, was involved in “allegedly helping Palestinians settle in Australia.”, who are now blocked from entering?

I wouldn't consider it a war crime, so probably best for the other thread

 

[ZEV]

• Israel to allow travel from Gaza to Israeli territory again for citizens that wish to pursue economic opportunities and to receive essential health treatment that is not possible in Gaza or in Egypt. This will need a permit system to be jointly governed by the governments in power in Israel / Palestine.

I think that ship may have sailed.

Given the amount of work needed to rebuild Gaza I don't think it's necessary anyway.

 

[Jazny]

Even if Hamas as a name is disbanded, there is nothing stopping the actual leaders being voted in through a legitimate election. Hopefully that wouldn't occur but nothing stopping it.

The fact they would be dead, in jail or hiding in exile.

 

[faible]

Conditions like Israel withdrawing fully from Gaza? This saw Hamas win an election, take over and attack anyone who opposed them.


Obviously Hamas isn't going to disappear overnight but for security & peace post war it is absolutely clear they cannot govern Gaza as a dictatorship for their own personal gain. Letting them continue as before is exactly the conditions that allow them to grow and recruit. They've got the Gazan economy to themselves, they can effectively hold the entire population hostage.

Let them run in a future Palestinian election for the entire state of Palestine. If they want the best for Palestinians I am sure they'll receive the appropriate amount of votes.


Until such a time Hamas need to let the Arab community in general govern / rebuild Gaza for the benefit of all Gazan citizens.

Israel 'withdrawing fully from Gaza' isn't nearly the freedom that you make it seem like, and drastically misrepresents that conditions that Gazans were still living under.

So long as Gaza and the West Bank are under military occupation, groups like Hamas will continue to appear and find disenfranchised recruits. There's an entire generation of Palestinians right now being created that will have little family and nothing left to lose if Israel 'withdraw from Gaza' but the occupation simply continues. It's bleedingly obvious to everyone it seems, if you oppress people and give them little hope in life, you'll eventually see violent responses.

No, that doesn't make it 'ok'.

 

[Zidane98]

Even if Hamas as a name is disbanded, there is nothing stopping the actual leaders being voted in through a legitimate election. Hopefully that wouldn't occur but nothing stopping it.

In Ireland IRA disbanded and reformed from IRA to Sinn Fein. Nothing stopping Hamas from doing this and running for parliament in Palestine.

 

[faible]

Given the amount of work needed to rebuild Gaza

Dropping thousands of tonnes of bombs will have that effect.

 

[ZEV]

In Ireland IRA disbanded and reformed from IRA to Sinn Fein. Nothing stopping Hamas from doing this and running for parliament in Palestine.

Mossad.

 

[Zidane98]

Israel 'withdrawing fully from Gaza' isn't nearly the freedom that you make it seem like, and drastically misrepresents that conditions that Gazans were still living under.

So long as Gaza and the West Bank are under military occupation, groups like Hamas will continue to appear and find disenfranchised recruits. There's an entire generation of Palestinians right now being created that will have little family and nothing left to lose if Israel 'withdraw from Gaza' but the occupation simply continues. It's bleedingly obvious to everyone it seems, if you oppress people and give them little hope in life, you'll eventually see violent responses.

No, that doesn't make it 'ok'.

I'm not sure if you have deliberately ignored the previous talking points in this discussion but it centered around the steps to peace and statehood for Palestine being Hamas' removal from power in Gaza with temporary governance by a combination of the UN/Arab League until such a time that full parliamentary elections can be run for the entire state of Palestine wiht a view to restoring full statehood.


The first step to peace is a unified Palestine and that simply won't happen with Hamas going back to the status quo post war.

 

[ZEV]

No, such a person's court case for assault / kidnapping is not relevant in terms of the Hamas - Israel war.


There's nothing wrong with anyone helping someone settle in Australia either to escape the ravages of war either.

Given it's related to the war and the other content in this thread not sure why you are upset.

The people what were being helped settle were denied entry... They were being assisted by an associate of a terrorism supporter.

 

[DapperDon]

The fact they would be dead, in jail or hiding in exile.

Hopefully the first option

 

[faible]

I'm not sure if you have deliberately ignored the previous talking points in this discussion but it centered around the steps to peace and statehood for Palestine being Hamas' removal from power in Gaza with temporary governance by a combination of the UN/Arab League until such a time that full parliamentary elections can be run for the entire state of Palestine wiht a view to restoring full statehood.


The first step to peace is a unified Palestine and that simply won't happen with Hamas going back to the status quo post war.

I've not ignored anything:

Remove the conditions that lead to the arising of groups like Hamas - and particularly their ability to recruit disenfranchised people to their cause - and it'll go a long way to improving the security of Israel.

I said the above, and your response was effectively '... but Hamas'.

his totally ignores the fact that Hamas attacked and murdered Palestinians from Fatah to take complete control over Gaza

The conditions existed before Hamas. Those same conditions still exist; occupation, statelessness, a disenfranchised population with little to lose.

This whole schtick some people are running with that everything was a-ok if only Hamas wasn't there doesn't really stack up. No, Hamas shouldn't be part of the future, but neither should the current Israeli Government.

Trying to 'but Hamas' every single discussion is why you keep ending up having these arguments over, and over, and over. Because it didn't start with Hamas, and it won't end with Hamas if nothing else changes.

 

[Zidane98]

I've not ignored anything:



I said the above, and your response was effectively '... but Hamas'.



The conditions existed before Hamas. Those same conditions still exist; occupation, statelessness, a disenfranchised population with little to lose.

This whole schtick some people are running with that everything was a-ok if only Hamas wasn't there doesn't really stack up. No, Hamas shouldn't be part of the future, but neither should the current Israeli Government.

Trying to 'but Hamas' every single discussion is why you keep ending up having these arguments over, and over, and over. Because it didn't start with Hamas, and it won't end with Hamas if nothing else changes.

Ok, have it your way. Let Hamas dictatorship continue post war.


Good luck with peace.

 

[faible]

Ok, have it your way. Let Hamas dictatorship continue post war.


Good luck with peace.

Remember how I keep telling you that you do this thing where you completely misrepresent people's positions in order to make them the bad guy?

Yeah, you did it again:

No, Hamas shouldn't be part of the future,